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I don’t think historically Jews had long peyos. Look at the painting and photos of gedolim in Europe from pre-Holocaust eras. Often the hair from the entire head was longer (but much shorter than shoulder length) peyos included. But certainly, long (curly) payos and shaven heads were not the norm. It was bought in by the Chassidim in the later years, I’m not even sure if they went like that in Europe bechlal. I know Galicianer wore long peyos in the early 1900 but I don’t know if they shaved their head, there were no shavers then in any case, they probably wore their hair very short.
Also in Taimoni wore long curly payos but most don’t do so now only those who drei zich in to he Chassidishe world.
The levush and peyos wear worn to be different to avoid assimilation.
People dress and groom in all cultures. Humans are like that. Ha-Shem made us that way. Enjoy the diversity. Don’t get so anxious that everyone in the world isn’t a clone of yourself.
Some people can’t cope, and perhaps that is an attraction to joining the military where everyone dresses the same, and cuts their hair the same, and are supposed to think the same (assuming they are of a high enough rank where thinking is encouraged). We aren’t like that.
Philosopher, I’m sorry but that’s not historically accurate. Before the government banned payos, litvishe yidden mostly had payos – st the time, there was a machlokes between the divrei chaim and the litvishe poskim. The Divrei chaim held that payos were yehereg velo yaavor as per arkasana demasani, shoelaces, which we are moser nefesh for during a shaas hashmad…the litvishe held differently, except for the netziv who was indeed moser nefesh, as you can see from his pictures. Subsequently it became popular to either not have payos, or put them behind one’s ears
I know plenty of taimani yidden who still have “simanim” even though they’re not chasidish at all
Chabad used to wear some sort of streimel; the last lubavitcher rebbe dropped it because it made kiruv difficult.
Many over-simplify the situation. I see only one simple rule – there are no general rules. sometimes Jews wear same as others (Polish medieval garb, Sephardim in Arab countries), maybe excluding red color and other inappropriate things (Gemora times, later Polish time Vaad forbidding too much jewelry), sometimes Jews insisting on a different dress, sometimes non-Jews forcing Jews to wear different dress, or sometimes same dress. All, mostly depending on relationships to the outside world and mutual attitudes.
Avirah, I never said Yidden didn’t wear payos. I said they didn’t wear LONG payos. The OP was talking about “long peyos”. I guess “long peyos” is subjective and long peyos likely means a different length to me as a Chassidishe than what it means to you. I have seen many paintings of gedolim and often their hair is longer together with their peyos but still not as long as some Chassidishe wear their payos today.
Should be above the levush and peyos were worn to avoid assimilation.
Avirah De’Arah, lubavitch used to wear spodiks
Hats and Coats are what Jews need to focus on in 2021? For gosh sakes.
The Chasam Sofer says on ויבא יעקב ‘שלם’ – שם, לשון, מלבוש keeps us separate in galus in order not to get assimilated.
YO, you are very predictable, you always have the same line. No one is “worried” about levish that frum men wear. It’s just a discussion.
Philosopher; yeah that was a miscommunication. I’m referring to how some gedolim, like rav chatzkel, cut their payos according to the shiur in halacha, but did not grow them larger than the rest of their hair. It is possible that the litvishe payos were shorter than the chassidishe ones, but they all used to be noticeable
Is it so that yemenites didnt change much from the times of the Beis Hamikdush? If so, can we assume that at the times of the churban jews had peyos like the yemenites have?
Yabia,
Does the secular year 2021 have any significance that would limit the topics that you feel jews should busy themselves?
1. The Litvish used to wear shtreimals in Lita. In Eretz Yisroel many Litvish still wear shtreimals.
2. The Litvish used to all wear a long rekel (jacket) in Lita. The Russian government forced them to stop.
3. Litvish married women used to wear only a tichel. Until the Russian government banned them.
4. The long peyos was universal in Ashkenaz. Even German Jews used to have long curly peyos, like the Chasidim still do now. You can find pictures even of the very early German maskilim with long curly peyos.
5. All Jewish men used to always wear a hat in public.
> It seems to me that back in the day everyone had long peyos why do onlythe chassidim hold on to that?
The arizal says theres no point of having more then the required amount so the question is on the chasidishers.>Why does chabad smash their hats?
Not all chabadniks smash their hats its not a chabad inyan, besides those who do focus on penimios not chitzonius and then some copy them
>Why does chabad not wear streimlach?
>>Chabad used to wear some sort of streimel; the last lubavitcher rebbe dropped it because it made kiruv difficult.
Wrong the rebbe rashab ( i believe made an inyan that a strreimel is far lubavitch (the town) because of how heilik a streimel is. The freidiker rebbe didnt wear a streimel till his daughters wedding and the rebbe didnt wear it because of another yerusha inyan.
“Hats and Coats are what Jews need to focus on in 2021? For gosh sakes..”
Yabia: Uumein, v’Uumein. We should be focusing on how $10 sufganiyot are worsening the shidduch crisis.
I heard from rav moshe wolfson once that chabad doesn’t grow payos because of a concern of mixing the hair from the beard with the payos for a kabalah reason, and this is a reason why some litvishe put it behind their ears(of course there’s the historical reason that it was due to anti semitism, but both can be true)
Tuna, do you have a source for those reasons re streimelich? I’ll admit that i was restating what i had heard from chabad people years ago without a textual source
The idea is very simple. We find in Chazal that we don’t change our attire to match the outside world. This does not mean that we create a new design for ourselves. It does mean that we do not change over.
Now, if this were held onto 100% we would still be wearing wrap-arounds. So, obviously changes and adaptations happen slowly. People who interact with the outside world on their business are the first to get a Hetter to change. Rabban Gamliel’s family, and Reuven Itztarubi (if I got that right) come to mind. Next will follow those who don’t really fall into the previous category but are connected to the world at large in some degree, or they just like to be up to date and jump onto the newest style — once some in the community already dress that way.
Eventually, it stops looking un-Jewish and so the common folk adapt, which eventually leads the Bnei Torah and Rabbonim to follow suit (yup).
This is why we all have buttoned shirts and suits when, not that long ago, anyone who put that on was an outcast.
Now, two points need to be made:
The sensibility to this is obviously not set in stone. After all, the Gemara about being Mosser Nefesh for clothing was only about Shaas Hashmad; otherwise, it wasn’t all that terrible. It is a point of identity and strongly recommended, but hardly an out-and-out Issur. Therefore, you’ll find that the adherence to this concept will vary from community to community and from one time period to another.
The other point is, that it is all relative. Those who found themselves struggling in a new world, had to adapt fast in order to make it. Even after the great influx of proudly-traditional Jews came and didn’t have to adapt, those who had already adapted had no need anymore to switch, since there is nothing inherently wrong with the way they went — the issue is with changing.
Those from the Litvish background, who had adapted somewhat faster to newer styles, even in Europe, were still Makpid not to change any faster than that.
In other words, the Chasidish and Yeshivish communities have the exact same attitude towards dress. Any difference is only historical.
At this point, once entire communities have specific styles, it is a loud statement if you suddenly switch. And so, people are reluctant to do so, although this has nothing to do with my whole topic.
I hope this sheds some light on the topic, as well as puts an end to the shallow cry of, “Moshe Rabbeinu didn’t wear a Shtreimel.”
So there is no real halachic plusses to wearing a long jacket?
There are no halachic “plus or minus” for wearing ANY lvush as long as such lvush is modest (tzinius applies to both men and women) and appropriate for the circumstances (aka don’t show up in the beis medrash in your PJs)i. Rely on your LRP for guidance if uncertain about minhag hamokom.
“So there is no real halachic plusses to wearing a long jacket?”
Hardly. There is an element of Tznius, so that’s enough to make it matter in a Shaas Hashmad, being a Tzad Yehadus. I saw someplace that the Chazon Ish held it is Tznius thing.
There is a hint to this in the Gemara in Shabbos, in which Rav Yehuda illustrates how the overcoat, the Glima, is related to Golam, that you don’t see the limbs but only one solid form. The assumption is that he said this as a positive attribute.
They wanted to bring a proof from the Torah for wearing a long jacket. It says borrow keilim (cloth) from the mitzryim and place it on your children. Why not on themselves? So they said, because it was too short. Maybe, there is no proof. If your children need clothing and you do then your children come first as we say in bentching that I have not seen a tzadik forsaken and the children look for bread because you will do everything to feed them.
For some people, religion is all about externals. They are very sensitive about this, and we do not want to offend them. So we play along. Otherwise, we would all be doing like the Ramchal wrote “to wear what ever hides our flesh”. Our clothing will never fool Him.
n0m: Do you currently or have you in the past identified yourself with the MO community or attended their schools or institutions? Would others possibly identify you as affiliated with MO?
Dear Ujm,
Honestly, not a chance. Not at any point in my life. Including today. Only in the course of debate. My thinking is all over the place. No one hashkafa can possibly contain all my errors🤦♂️.
Dear Ujm,
From what I know, the MO community is very into dress. Was he tucked in? His brim was too big. How could he wear the same shirt twice? Why does it have to be a black hat? Next year everyone will be dressing like this. In the old days we wore..
Dress matters less out of town.
Rav shach once had a talmid who was from a chasidishe background, but had gravitated to the litvishe world. He was having a hard time in shidduchim, because he was too chasidish for the litvish and too litvishe for the chasidim. He asked the rosh yeshiva if he could put on a short jacket, to make the transition more noticeable and try to get rehdt to litvishe families. Rav Shach told him that a short jacket is not a chisaron, but there is a naalah to wearing a long one, as this is what jews wore for generations and it is more tznius. To change in any way that is lowering a madrega for Shidduchim, says rav shach, is not hishtadlus.
N0m: Dress SHOULD matter.
I recall a cartoon with a line of Chasidim and a professor standing in line to greet the Rebbe. Professor, embarrassed by his dress, borrows a shtreimel to go with his jacket. Rebbe says “Gut Shabbos” to everyone, and to Professor he says “A freiliche Purim”.
The only Levush that matters is R’ Mordechai Yaffe
This reminds me about the Shagas Aryeh who died through a seforim cabinet falling on him where he argued on all seforim by saying אריה שאג ‘מי’ לא ירא, when a lion roars who is not afraid? So R’ Mordechai Yaffe retorted that he is not afraid ( the above acronym is for him, lo yiro, is not afraid).
According to Wiki:
A legend exists of his death. During his studies a bookcase fell on him, covering him with books. His students were able to rescue him after an hour or so and he related to them that he had been covered by the books of the authors with whom he had quarreled. He had asked forgiveness from all of them and they all complied save for one, Mordecai Yoffe (known as the Levush) who refused. He knew therefore that he was not long for this world, and pronounced the verse in Hebrew “Aryeh shoag mi loi yiroh”; i.e. that Aryeh (the lion, meaning himself) shoag (roars), but mi (an acronym of Mordecai Yoffeh, but can also mean ‘who’) loi yiroh (is not afraid).[4]
This above from Wiki refers to the Shagas Aryeh not the Maharal.
Reb Eliezer, The chasam sofer was my great… grandfather, and I honestly don’t think he meant it to the extreme. You can take anything and read it the way you’d like.
I researched levush because I really hated it. Maybe t-shirts or hoodies with vulgar words are the non-jews מלבוש today. From everything I read, my conclusion is: the only reason for a uniform today is societal norms. When you want to fit in in a certain community. No matter how much you don’t believe in it or hate it, you’ll do it to fit in.
Maybe I have a lot of anger toward certain people, and I’m lashing out here. I’m sorry. Externals mean nothing. I’ve met a lot of liars who look so frum and holy. Why doesn’t everybody do what works for them as long as it doesn’t interfere with halacha???inquisitive, I am sorry about your experiences but you can have your cake and eat it. People who dress up and behave properly should be respected. The Chasam Sofer did not require the growing of a beard. The Rambam in Hilchas Yesodei Hatorah (5,11) says that a talmid chacham generates an expected behavior. If he does not live up to it, it becomes a chilul Hashem.
inquisitive girl, are you mestivta bachur alter ago? your style of writing seems very similar
Inquisitive, consider what the liars who pretend to be totally frum would do if they dressed the way they behaved in private…. The dress and communal affiliation will prevent them from intermarrying, breaking shabbos in public, eating in treif restaurants and more.
His alter ego!?!? Hahaha! Many people have questions about levush.
I’m not talking about dressing badly. I don’t agree with the idea of looking very different than the world. For example, the Chassidish code of dress. The shtreimel, long jacket, long curly peyos. Or guys that wear their hat all the time or can’t wear a shirt that isn’t white.
Somehow, if somebody doesn’t follow the dress code, they’re considered less frum.Avira > consider what the liars who pretend to be totally frum would do if they dressed the way they behaved in private
You are right that the dress would limit some people from additional aveiros, but it also comes at a cost: people will equate their behavior w/ Talmidei chachamim … not an eas y trade-off.
The gemora Berochos 33, says גדולה דעת שניתן בין שמות שנאמר א-ל דעות השם, understanding is great which was given between to shemos El and Hashem. My Rebbi, Rav Shmuel ztz’l, the Matersdorfer Rav explains that when both individuals utter the name of Hashem, we need special understanding to be able to differentiate who is true in one’s belief and who is fake and says it just to look good and be respected. We make havdala in the bracha of ata chonen, understanding as understanding is required to differentiate,
The relevant goyishe proverb (for those of you for whom Latin is the mama lashon) is: “vestis virum facit” meaning “clothes make the man.” I guess that would translate into “judge a chassidish guy by his bekeshe and shtreimel”. Its a bit more challenging for the Litvish bochurim since the sartorial options tend to be more limited and lacking in individuality.
Inquisitive, consider where these reactions are coming from. Ask yourself why you don’t think it’s important to look different than the non Jews we live among, who have beliefs and practices that we need to be distant from.
People choose to dress a certain way and are doing so while fully aware of how they will be seen – they are making a conscious decision to align themselves with a certain group or way of life.
We’re not supposed to judge individuals, but by dressing a certain way, they’re putting out a very clear signal that they’re not interested in the lifestyle of a true ben torah(in the litvishe world).
But honestly, the hat/ gartel/ jacket nowadays days. Do most poskim hold that you have to daven with it? I know some say you don’t. I’m just wondering. And a guy that doesn’t would he be less religious???
I’m asking regarding my shidduchim. My family wears the levush. But I found that they had too many distortions with Yiddishkeit. Verbal abuse, blatant Lashon Harah, use Hashem and religion for their objectives…
I’m talking about a small percentage of frum 2-facers. Maybe I’m scarred, but don’t you all think a guy without a uniform can be Ehrlich and good?Avira, dont think im not self aware!!! i know exactly where this is coming from! which im not interested in sharing.
You explained it so well! I hear you. i see why somebody would want to wear it. Maybe im trying to fit into the non jewish society? Ill be honest. Unconsciously i do. I want to fit into society while following halacha. is there something halachically wrong with that? maybe im hashkafically a frum modern girl.“maybe im hashkafically a frum modern girl.”
I think last time you were a strict chassidishe woman.
Inquisitive, unfortunately being part of the Torah world doesn’t mean we’re impervious to bad middos, or even abuse. Being ehrlich in one’s middos is a lifelong endeavor, and some people might think that they are doing just fine without it… It’s very sad. With or without the externals, we’re all going to have these challenges. It’s up to us to take every opportunity possible to improve on those issues and identify the middos that we have and how to fix them.
That being said, the outside world is full of lashon hora and bad middos, not to mention untznius things – it’s how non Jews enjoy themselves. Most comedy is about making fun of someone else. Being part of the outside world definitely doesn’t help you grow in middos… Just imagine how much worse your parents would have been if they spent hours learning bad middos from movies and television…
Hashem says “i have separated you from among the nations to be mine”, and chazal say on that pasuk…if you are separate from the non jews, then you are my people – the non jewish world is not all bad; we benefit from science, medicine, buildings and the economy, but the culture is anti Torah and only exacerbates the challenges we have from the yatzer hora on a daily basis.
As to your questions in halacha; many poskim hold that one is not obligated to wear a hat and jacket while davening if that’s not how he normally dresses when meeting someone important. That just means it’s not an aveirah; we know that there’s a lot more to yiddishkeit than just “do this” and “don’t do this”. A hat and jacket is a constant reminder to a ben torah that he is part of the “ligyon shel melech”, the legion of Hashem – when it comes off, that feeling is partially lost.
A vartel is a different story with two opinions going back hundreds of years. Chassidim hold like the poskim who say it’s an obligation, and most litvishe hold it isn’t.
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