"Live and let live"

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  • This topic has 36 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 8 years ago by Toi.
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  • #604467
    Curiosity
    Participant

    I’ve seen the phrase used by at least three different people on the CR today. Is this a Torah concept? My impression of it is that it’s a concept brought by the influence of the powerful ruach of liberalism that infects this country.

    #890481
    choppy
    Participant

    No, it most certainly is not a Torah concept. It comes from western liberalism.

    According to the Torah, Kol Yisroel Areivim Zeh L’Zeh. We have to mind each others spiritual (and material) business. And we are required to give Tochacha when someone does something wrong. That is the Halacha in the Torah.

    #890482
    hatzolajew
    Member

    Eilu v eilu

    #890483
    Curiosity
    Participant

    Thank you choppy. I thought so too, but it seems like the women learning Torah and vegetarianism threads are full of the phrase.

    #890484
    oomis
    Participant

    Though it ia true we have a chiyuv to give tochacha, if you are going to do it, better be really sure that you are halachically correct and not giving mussar about a chumrah or minority-held minhag that are not required by the Torah.

    #890485
    yytz
    Participant

    Not exactly, but there are many Torah ideas that are consistent with live and let live. On the other hand, we are supposed to engage in kiruv, loving all creatures and bringing them closer to Torah.

    1) “Judge every person favorably” (Avos 1:6)

    2) “Do not judge your fellow until you have stood in his place.” (Avos 2:5)

    3) There are countless statements of Chazal about the importance of humility, and publicly criticizing other people (the alternative to “live and let live”) isn’t exactly humble.

    4) Embarassing another person (such as through public criticism) is considered as bad as shedding blood.

    5) I think it was Rav Hillel the Elder who said that no one in his generation was qualified to offer reproof. And that was a generation of spiritual giants!

    #890486
    Curiosity
    Participant

    Eilu v’eilu does *NOT* mean live and let live. If I knew how to use code in this forum, I would also bold the word “not”.

    #890487
    147
    Participant

    New Hampshire License plates:- “Live Free or Die”

    #890488
    Kozov
    Member

    When someone uses the phrase live and let live theyre not neccessarily saying it the same way others mean it. Sometimes you have to leave somebody alone because that’s the best thing to do, in which case it is just as Toradik to do so as rebuking when rebuke is appropriate. But if they mean live and let live in a broader sense then theyre wrong its not Daas Torah.

    Curiosity i think he meant this and that.

    #890489
    ohr chodesh
    Member

    Live and let live would mean (in the full sense) to allow the toeivaniks to freely do their lifestyle. The Torah law is to not allow them to do so (whether they are Jewish or gentile.)

    #890490
    Avi K
    Participant

    The Jewish equivalent is “eilu v’eilu divrei Elokim chaim”. Bet Hillel and Bet Shammai even married each other despite disagreements regarding yichus which were put into practice (Yevamot 14a).

    #890491
    on the ball
    Participant

    Avi K: -“The Jewish equivalent is “eilu v’eilu divrei Elokim chaim”. Bet Hillel and Bet Shammai even married each other despite disagreements regarding yichus which were put into practice (Yevamot 14a).”

    Yes but only after making sure the yichus of the particular shidduch was OK according to their Shitta

    #890492

    live and let live was said about women learning daf hayoimi!

    #890493
    Toi
    Participant

    pinchas killed zimri. no live and let live.

    #890494
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Toi, you’re right. Who needs a bais din!!

    Live and let live means if we’re both following valid peaks but yours is more machmir, leave me alone

    #890495
    rbcb
    Member

    Maybe live and let live applies that we should not say Loshon Hara unless we have all 7 conditions listed in Sefer Chofetz Chaim Hilchos Loshon Hara Klal 10 S’eef 2

    #890496
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Let and Let Live would mean we would have to accept Satmar and Neutrei Karta on the Anti-Zionist approach

    #890497
    oomis
    Participant

    Pinchas killed Zimri for flaunting in public his flagrant disregard for the laws of morality with a non-Jewish woman. Pinchas was a tzaddik, whose ONLY thought was Kovod Hashem, when he committed his act of kana-us. What Zimri and Cozbi were doing was a clear and unquestionable act of immorality. Pinchas knew the halacha. Today, you see men spitting on and terrorizing four year old girls for not wearing sox. THEY are neither Pinchas-es nor tzaddikim.

    #890498
    ohr chodesh
    Member

    Pinchas didn’t need a beis din to kill. And if it happened today, one wouldn’t need a beis din to kill.

    #890499
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Here’s what live and let live means to me, and what kol yisroel areivim ze bazeh means.

    First: Part of the mehalech of tochecho done properly, according to some of the most machmir of posters here in other threads,is that it can only be be given to someone who is receptive – SO – until and unless you know your nosiness and interference is going to be appreciated, you have no halachic right or obligation to give it. So live and let live.

    Second: As has been said above, your chumrah is not necessarily his chumrah, and your (or your Rov’s) interpretation of halocho is not necessarily that of him or his Rov. SO why would one make an assumption that you know better, or that your Rov “trumps” his? That is arrogance, and arrogance has no place in Yiddishkeit. So live and let live.

    Third: As it says in Avos, have you walked in his (or her) shoes? Do you know if he or she has asked a shailah about what you are seeing? Often poskim – chareidi poskim – are makil to extremes if the particular circumstances dictate it. Do you know if it is their particular challenge, and your rebuke will do more harm than good? If you don’t know, how can you take the risk of pushing someone (further) away from yiddishkeit? So live and let live.

    OTOH, what are your responsibilities? If you see something that seems to you to demand a response, perhaps your response should be one of love and achdus. Perhaps you can offer the individual a helping hand, a favour, a smile, a shabbos lunch, or simply an opportunity to talk. Perhaps you could call the person to wish them a good shabbos every couple of weeks instead of crossing to the other side of the street when you see him. IF the person get sin trouble with the law, help and advocate for him. If they need a loan or a job, work to make it happen. If they need help getting their kids into a school, or paying for it, see if you can raise funds for them. If they are sitting shiva, cook for them. If they need a place to live, don’t shoo them away because they don’t meet your standards of tznius, find a way to welcome them into the community, and show them the beauty of a tzniusdig life. THAT is kol yisroel areivim ze bazeh.

    Unless, of course, to you, kol yisroel… is a sham, and what is important is maintaining your holy exclusivity and looking down on di andere….

    #890500
    a mamin
    Participant

    I did not mean any of these definitions when I said it. So I therefore retract my words. I only meant , when someone should mind their own business, for example: telling others to go or not go to Uman. Or to admonish others for NOT going to the siyim hashas.

    #890501
    LSH
    Member

    If you try to bite a dog, he might bite you back. You have to know how to approach various situations we find ourselves in today including…

    Like…Ooh what I saw…Only G-d can handle it in His own way. Pain, agony, suffering, frustration, for many…I don’t know.

    It was a very serious offense that I’m sure has been committed by more than one. I’m truly serious, like destroy the Beis HaMikdash time…

    When you see someone really doing something offensive, try to love him first. If you can’t love him first then it’s not your place to scream at him. It’s been my personal experience that certain people who truly disapprove of certain things that I’ve done or are doing truly are so stuck in their perspective that they have no room for any other idea. Getting back to the “You absolutely can’t judge a person until you’ve been in their shoes” but you can passionately fight for a cause. The attack is not on the person but for the issue at hand.

    #890502
    Toi
    Participant

    less- wow, you just made fun of pinchas? thats kinda dumb. i agree with how you teiched it, but alot of posters here use it to mean that if someone elses trangressing of halacha doesnt interfere with anothers daily life, no-one should say anything. R aharon kotler ztl explains that this approach is in conflict with yiddishkeit and thats not called shalom. pinchas made shalom by killing zimri. and so he was given “brisi shalom”.

    #890503
    REALIST
    Member

    LessChumras:

    Say what you want, TOI is correct!

    No bais din was required as Pinchas knew the halacha was on his side.

    Specifically, “Ha-bo al Aramis, Kanoim pogim bo”.

    Not agreeing with a halacha was the start of the reform movement!

    Good Luck!

    #890504
    REALIST
    Member

    Having written my previous post, one must keep a delicate balance between two maamorei Chazal.

    Hochayach tochayach es amisecha,

    while at the same time,having in mind,

    K’shot atzmecho v’achar kach k’shot acheirim.

    It’s not easy.

    #890505
    Kozov
    Member

    Toi just because people might make mistakes doesn’t mean you can be ambiguous and make blanket statements about pinchas and no such thing as live and let live and trick people into being extra machmir.

    I really dont understand why you stress severity when kindness and acceptanve is just as, if not more, important.

    Yichusdik- i appreciate your summarization. Therere probably more factors too. Here is a very important one that i dont think was brought yet.

    You shall surely rebuke your fellow (?????(- ?? ???? ????? ???????- one who is on your level in torah observance- otherwise the mitzva of ahavas yisroel continues, and in fact maybe hell return from this approach.

    #890506
    Curiosity
    Participant

    It’s uncalled for to preach “live and let live” to someone when we are just discussing a subject. Just because someone has an opinion that you disagree with doesn’t mean that they are sitting in judgement and need to be rebuked. The CR should be used for discussion and sharing of opinions, not for admonition and chastisement. When we discuss women learning gemara or people going to Uman, nobody should get defensive to have to tell others to leave them alone – or live and let live. It’s just a discussion, nothing more. You can listen, learn, and contribute. Don’t feel like someone with an opinion is someone who condones telling people what to do.

    I was one of the more machmir people on the “tznius in Brooklyn” thread, and I said you should NOT approach people and tell them they are untznius, and that most people nowadays are unable to give tochacha properly. On the other hand, I hold women learning Gemara and going to Uman are both wrong. This doesn’t make me a hypocrite. I never said we should scorn people who do this. It’s just a discussion. So there’s no need to tell people to “live and let live”, which is not an ideal Torah concept – kol Yisrael areivim zeh lazeh.

    #890507
    choppy
    Participant
    #890508
    choppy
    Participant

    Actually, the original Hatikva composed by frei zionist Naphtali Herz Imber said: ???? ???? ???????. But the Israelis wanted to davka put apikorsus in it, so they actually changed the poets original composition to ????? ?? ???? ??????.

    #890509
    REALIST
    Member

    Choppy:

    Wrong thread.

    #890510
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    hatikva was changed after 1948

    #890511
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Live and let live = Eilu V’eilu + no Bais Din, so we aren’t killing anyone, even Toi. (whom I hear why someone might want to, but still we hold back. The Government does not see it the same way, and Kanoim Pogim Bo doesn’t apply where the Malchus would (rightfully) kill you back. Hence Let Live & Live.)

    #890512
    choppy
    Participant

    Eilu V’eilu is very far from “live and let live”. Live and let live would include if someone else is sinning. It would mean live and let him sin. Live for yourself and don’t worry about other’s sins.

    That is very very far from Eilu V’eilu.

    #890513
    Toi
    Participant

    GAW- its nice to see old rivalries (shall we call them?) are still alive and well. kudos.

    #890514
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    GAW- its nice to see old rivalries (shall we call them?) are still alive and well. kudos.

    Thanks. I’m glad you got it 🙂 Hopefully it made you smile.

    Either way, the “main” meaning is true. You are 100% correct that we don’t “live and let live” as a religion. However, due to external conditions, we don’t force people to follow Yiddishkeit, but rather try “honey” to show the sweetness.

    If we had a Sanhedrin & a Torah Government then the Taliban would look harmless by comparison (in the way that we would force people to follow the Torah), but that is not the time period which we are dealt.

    #890515
    oomis
    Participant

    “Pinchas didn’t need a beis din to kill. And if it happened today, one wouldn’t need a beis din to kill. “

    But he would definitely need a good LAWYER if he tried that in THIS country.

    #890516
    Toi
    Participant

    GAW- i actually laughed out loud.

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