Lna’ar Hazeh Hispalalti? The Dissonance of Redemption

I know, right? People like Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Ahron Kotler, Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, the Chofetz Chaim, Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzinski, Rav Shimon Shkop, Rav Yisrael Salanter, The Ben Ish Chai, ​The Rogatchover Gaon, the Alter of Slabodka, Rav Elchonon Wasserman, Rav Meir Shapiro, The Chasam Sofer, The Vilna Gaon, The Baal Shem Tov, The Noda B’Yehuda, ​The Pele Yoetz, The Rema, The Mechaber, The Rosh, The Rif, Rabbeinu Tam and even Rashi didn’t live in Eretz Yisroel.

You should have been around to correct them all.

Your unrelenting attempts at advocacy to ensure the rights of the frum community are not only commendable but outright awe-inspiring! Orthodox organizations stand by their communities, fighting any possible hindrance to their freedom of speech, religion, etc. The frequent large-scale Torah Events are exciting, inviting, highly professional, and a true Kiddush Hashem. Honestly, it is to be envied by other communities! The accomplishments are impressive as well. Bills passed, funds allocated to Jewish Education, lifting the heavy burden of Tuition, stepping in for someone who was discriminated against for Shabbos Observance, Lobbying on Capitol Hill, and developing real friendships with Politicians who appreciate our communities. I can go on and on and on and its all true. BUT. What if all the above doesn’t succeed? What if your friends in the government are unable to help despite their goodwill? What happens if anti-Semitism doesn’t like your advocacy and persists no matter what? What happens if the situation gets worse, as it already is? And the real QUESTION? What if G- D Forbid Golus America ends like 100% of the other goluses??? What do we do then? Is there a plan B? I don’t want to get descriptive. It’s not necessary. WE NEED PLAN B!!
I would like to make a suggestion based on a Possuk in yeshayahu פרק ד פסוק ג. Yes, I am suggesting preparing American Jewry for mass Aliyah, and I even have a plan. Send a delegation for a series of meetings with Government Ministers, Minister of Housing, Minister of Labor, Minister of Education, Minister of Aliyah. (Yes Israeli Ministers) Say to them, we are preparing our communities for mass Aliyah. We want our communities and their families to be able to live near one another and to retain our culture, our educational system etc. We need proper and adequate employment and social services. We need shuls, schools, yeshivos, seminaries, etc. Lay down the infrastructure NOW! Don’t wait till it’s too late! I don’t like to beg, but I hereby beg you – Do it NOW!
It can be done. There are large empty expanses of land – in Yerushalaim and close by, and in other places as well. – Tell the Minister of Housing – You allocate the land, we will bring the builders (not the kind who build in every possible meter leaving no space for greenery, etc) the prices will be government-regulated for 18 months, during which period of time only people from X community will be able to buy. After 18 months, anyone will be able to buy. Within these new neighborhoods, there will have to be lots allocated for shuls, schools, yeshivos AND playgrounds, beautiful green parks etc. The Rabbonim of the shuls will only be able to be from X community as so too the principals of the schools and the Roshei Yeshiva. Demand easier conditions for opening businesses, easier taxation – whatever! (Dont worry you won’t get all you ask for- but it’s a beginning.)
Aliyah has many challenges but when done together, it’s a whole different story.
I know that I’ll be hit in the face with all sorts of hashkafos that serve the purpose of easing guilt over staying put, but times have changed. We are on the threshold of worldwide changes that we cannot foresee their results. WE MUST HAVE A PLAN B!

Eva LiMoshav Lo:
In addition to UJM’s point, which means that you should take your wonderment to your LOR to get what is therefore an obvious answer given that, you are also conflating two very different things: geulah and the subsequent return to E”Y with Mashiach versus the Zionist invasion of E”Y and the cataclysmic mess that resulted (which they knew would happen but didn’t care).

Hashem told us that Eliyahu haNavi will come to announce the geulah. That hasn’t happened yet, as of this writing.
What has happened instead is, as Rav Elchonon Wasserman called it, “galus under the yevsektzia”, which is “the worst galus of all”.

Chacham adif miNavi.

evalemoshiv is a pity to behold

he is convinced that he is the only one who sees the light …

all gdolei yisrael kdoshei elyon beki’m bechol hatorah be ‘iyun , yerei shamayim muflagim are in the dark …

only evalemoshiv knows better ….

is there a medicine for evalemoshiv’s illness ?

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To the group

I’m going to take a surprising position and support Eval. In 1972 (I think), Rabbi Kahane spoke at the Bialystoker Shul on the LES. He railed into those who don’t make Aliyah. I was a teenager at the time. I felt he was right, but I didn’t want to go because I felt that I could have an easier and “better’ life in America. In retrospect, I think I was wrong. The Gemara says, “Rachmana Liba Boi.” Hashem wants our hearts. The fact that so many Jews who could have gone to Israel haven’t done so is not a good thing. I think we should apologize to Hashem if we’re in that group. I’ll just add one point, “For all of us who are now living in Chutz Laaretz, how many will leave our cushy lives and go to Israel when Moshiach comes?” Let’s discuss this point. Eval opened a very important subject.

Evalemoshavlo – Eretz Yisroel is enormously important and holy and has many special מעלות IF AND ONLY IF someone is EQUALLY CAREFUL WITH ALL THE OTHER MITZVOS, comes here for the right reasons, and moving will not negatively affect his שלום בית, his children’s חינוך, or even his פרנסה (says so explicitly in Poskim). So, if someone is up to it, great. If not, he isn’t doing anything wrong.

many gdolim yearned for EY

but none held of evalemoshiv’s rant

that in itself proves evalemoshiv wrong …
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simcha613:
That story isn’t relevant here.
No, we don’t pray for Hashem to simply return us to our homeland; we pray for the redemption.
No, we are not being at all hypocritical in our prayers; it is actually the Zionists who are corrupting the same, of course.
For example, in viLiYerushalyim that we pray thrice daily, we ask G-d to return there with mercy and to dwell there as he stated and to build it speedily in our days a forever building and to establish the throne of David there speedily. None of that has any relevance to the Zionist abomination.

Hakatan- I’m not talking about ViLiyerushalayim. I don’t think any Zionist says that has been fulfilled, You’re setting up a straw man. But we do say vekabtzeinu me’araba kanfos ha’aretz. We do say vahaveinu leshalom mearba kanfos haaretz. Are we prophets? Do we know exactly how Hashem plans on returning us to our homeland? If we have the opportunity to acheive what we are praying for, how do you know this wasn’t Hashem’s way of answering our tefilos? If you really mean those tefilos, you desperately want to return le’artzeinu… how can you say them with a straight face knowing you can return, but choose not to?

Every time we bench we thank Hashem for Eretz Yisroel. What exactly are you thanking Hashem for if you choose not to utilize that gift? Thanks God for the land… I’ll use it later? Now isn’t the best time for me? Thanks but no thanks?

@GadolHadofi:
They aren’t my buddies. I don’t need to call out what they do, as their misguided approach is an issue between them and G-d. Unlike the Zionists, they mean well, and are performing a service for Klal Yisrael to let the world know that Jews are not responsible for anything the Zionists do or don’t do. By that standard, though, we’re all still waiting for you and all Zionist idolaters to call out all the Zionists for all the evil they do, like impoverishing our brethren there for not agreeing to be shmaded in their army, etc. which of course never happens. Please don’t be silly, despite your screen name being what it is.

@simcha613:
You don’t think so? Have you asked them? Have you read any of Rabbi Kook’s works? Any of his son’s works? Any of his students and their students?
No, I’m not at all setting up a straw man; have you ever read any of the chazals that discuss the geulah? Anything from the Satmar Rav who writes extensively on this with no dissenting opinions this? Like, for example, how the geulah will be by Hashem, not by basar vaDam, because anything by basar vaDam doesn’t have permanence, and this geulah will be permanent.

As to your quotes, they are dependent on the ggedulah, of course. For example, “viKabtzeinu yachad…” is part of the bracha that begins “Teka biShofar gadol liCheiruseinu…” which clearly discusses the geulah, including, specifically that shofar of Mashiach. How could you possibly rip out of context “viKabtzeinu yachad…” to be not dependent on that “shofar”? In other words, we are asking to be redeemed and then to be gathered into the holy land as part of that redemption. That isn’t very complicated.

Regarding Bentching and thanking Hashem for the land, even though He has expelled us from that land, we do still need to thank Him for “having given to our forefathers a desirable land, good and expansive…”, and “for having redeemed us from Egypt…”

Please consult with a competent (non-Zionist) LOR.

katan :
… Anything from the Satmar Rav who writes extensively on this with no dissenting opinions this? Like, for example, how the geulah will be by Hashem, not by basar vaDam ….

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rambam hilchot mlachim clearly infers that the ge’ula will come through the actions of a basar vadam

who was sent by HKBH …..
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@hakatan

you missed perhaps a more obvious absurdity in @simcha613 heresy, which is the implication that kibitz gulyous means moving to EY. Kibitz gulyous is just as relevent in London or NY.

I would ask, if I thought he had any yiras shomayim, why @simcha613 doesn’t join his bretheren in Brooklyn for that kibbitz gulyous that he claims to daven for three times a day.

There is no ambiguity in Torah about the requirement of a miraculous redemption, as this is explicit psikim that chazal maintain their literal reading.
This is such a clear point in Torah that the Rambam includes it in the 13 ikarim and claims anyone who doesn’t believe in the miraculous redemption is no longer part of the am yisroel.
Beyond that, if there is any confusion in identifying if any redemption-like events qualify as “miraculous enough”, we are repeatedly taught by chazal through to poskim rishonim and achronim that we must presume that the claim is fraudulent and we must reject such claims specifically because there will in reality be no doubt when the real redemption happens and there will be no necessity for us Jews to figure it out as the redemption will happen regardless of us realizing it. This is so clear that the Rambam emphasizes in Yad Chazukeh that no signs or miracles should fool us into believing a moshiach sheker, rather the only “sign” we should follow is doing tshiva, a firm perquisite to the real geila (because we are always allowed/required to do tshiva, so no risk of following a moshaich sheker).
The saddest part of this whole conversation is that everything I wrote is both clear and emphatically expressed throughout our Torah, yet so many fools don’t even bother to read them nor do they listen to the actual published teaching of our Gedolim regarding the subject and how critical these point are to even starting life as a Jew.

Rambam is clear

the way to differentiate between real mashiach and an ‘unreal’ mashiach is to see whether he is slain in battle

proof that the real mashiach will have to engage in physical battle …
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SJ:

If you think Rambam supports your position, you’re like everyone else who thinks Rambam supports their position (both hardcore rationalists and mystics), when the truth from broad exposure to his writings – especially those in Arabic – shows the truth to be far more vague and complicated.

It is plainly obvious you have not learned Rambam and know nothing about the classical MENA + Spanish approach to miracles: there is a tendency to minimize unless there is a specific purpose. This can be seen in Rasa”g, Rambam, R’ Tanhum Yerushalmi, Ibn Ezra and others. Rambam does not mention a miraculous redemption in the relevant section of Mishne Tora. The 13 ikkarim (both the expanded and short versions) don’t mention anything about a miraculous redemption either. Neither does the Guide; neither does Shemone Perakim. You also very clearly have no grasp of Arabic – which is the primary language he wrote in and essential to having a clue about what he may have actually believed.

On the other hand, Ramban supports your position concerning miracles and redemption. But Ramban also considered conquering and settling EY to be a Mitzvot Deoraysa incumbent upon all generations. So other than the specific dispensations to leave EY and live abroad that were laid out by Chazal, why are you not picking up and moving to EY? Don’t tell me “Daas Toyreh”.

You’re trying to use Rambam to attack the RZ community and reject any sort of gratitude for the State of Israel, and even go so far as to echo a certain Chassidish rebbe who considered the State to be an act of Satan. Rambam doesn’t support your position of insisting on open miracles akin to Kriyas Yam Suf, unless it is specifically to show HKB”H’s dominion over all.

And again I will repeat that in Nusachaos Sefard, Ari and nearly all of Edot HaMizrach, the final phrase before the Bracha of תקע בשופר is “וקבצינו יחד מארבע כנפות הארץ לארצינו”. So unless you daven Nusach Ashkenaz and actually want to make the diyyuk that Kibbutz Galuyos does not refer to EY, you might want to cool it.

SJ:

Nice rant/polemic. However, you have not responded to anything I said in a material manner. You’re engaging in false dichotomies, strawman arguments and moving goalposts, not to mention engaging in ad hominem attacks and character assassination.

Try again with something of substance that is less emotional.

somejew> Unless the Rambam explicitly states, ‘I disagree with this Medrash’ or ‘we don’t learn the simple reading of this Midrash,’ we must assume he is in agreement with tradition.

this is not what Rambam himself says abut believing in Midrashim in the intro to the Mishna, I recall.

UJM: No, he didn’t. He engaged in every single one of the things I listed and it is obvious to any thinking adult. It wasn’t an argument or refutation, it was the hysterical overreactive polemic of a kanoi. Which is most of what he writes to begin with.

SJ:
Stop polemicizing. Labeling every perspective that challenges your own as “heresy” may offer you a sense of security, but it is a poor substitute for rigorous scholarship.

Your insistence that the Rambam must be read as a literalist to remain “kosher” is ridiculous. Have you actually studied Moreh Nevuchim? Rambam explicitly addresses those “perplexed” by the tension between the literal words of Chazal and intellectual truth. By demanding Rambam “align perfectly” with a literalist reading of every Midrash, you are essentially siding with the group the Rambam criticized: those who see the metaphors of Chazal as simple stories. You aren’t defending the Rambam; you are attempting to sanitize his methodology because the reality of his rationalism makes you uncomfortable.

Regarding the Ramban, your attempt to disqualify the Mitzvah of Yishuv Ha’aretz based on the secular nature of the State is a non sequitur. The Ramban’s ruling in the Addenda to Sefer HaMitzvos (Mitzvah 4) is an unconditional obligation for all generations. To suggest that the Mitzvah only “activates” once EY is perfectly observant is a convenient, modern invention. By that logic, one should abstain from all Mitzvos until they reach a state of total spiritual perfection. We perform the Mitzvah we are given; the political reality is a separate discussion.

Your comparison of the State of Israel – the largest center of Torah and Jewish life on the planet – to the Nazi regime is not only intellectually bankrupt but borders on the pathological. It is rhetoric that replaces Daas Torah with simple, unthinking Kanois. As for the Three Oaths, your selective reading ignores the vast literature of the Acharonim who discussed why these oaths are no longer a halakhic barrier. Your reliance on a single, late-term interpretation of the Oaths as an absolute dogma reveals a very limited scope of the internal halakhic conversation.

If you wish to discuss the Raavad or the wilderness, I suggest doing so with a Gemara in hand rather than a collection of pamphlets. On top of that, Rambam makes no mention of requiring “wilderness” before redemption may begin.

Also, your “Divine threats” and “idolatry” labels do not change the physical reality that millions of Jews are fulfilling the Ramban’s Mitzvah every day.

Re rationalism: Your reflexive dismissal of “rationalism” as heresy reveals a profound unfamiliarity with the very Mekoros you claim to defend. To suggest that a rationalist methodology is a modern academic “fabrication” is to ignore a millennium of Torah thought, from R’ Saadia Gaon to Rambam himself, as well as all the other Hakhamim I mentioned. Identifying the Rambam’s systematic preference for the intellect over literalist superstition isn’t “labeling” him; it is simply reading his own introductions, where he explicitly mocks those who view the metaphors of Chazal through a simplistic, literal lens. One does not “reject” Chazal by seeking the sophisticated philosophical truths they intended to convey; rather, the true insult to the Sages is your demand that they be stripped of their depth to accommodate your own intellectual limitations.

Re Zionism: I have repeatedly stated that I am not a political Zionist and am in favor of the various tefillos for the State and IDF are on Halachic grounds, not a political stance. Your inability to grasp this is truly baffling.

somejew:

… the Rambam includes it in the 13 ikarim and claims anyone who doesn’t believe in the miraculous redemption is no longer part of the am yisroel …

sheker vechazav .

rambam never said that

rambam said the following :

the Rambam includes mashiach in the 13 ikarim and claims anyone who doesn’t believe in the redemption by mashiach is no longer part of the am yisroel …

AFAIK , rambam does not mention the word ‘miraculous’ ….

this seems somejew’s own addition ….

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@simcha613:
But your point is wrong, as mentioned before, because there is no such prayer.
We do not pray to simply return to EY. We pray for the redemption, and part of that will, of course, be returning to EY.

@simcha613
You seem to misunderstand the reality that I follow the Jewish religion. What I pray for three times a day has nothing to do with getting on a plane and going to the physical land called Eretz Yisroel. Once you figure that out that we aren’t talking about the same thing, you’ll understand why Jews don’t practice the same religion as Zionists.

It’s the same as Catholics asking why we don’t just drink their god blood if we pray three times a day to be close to G-d. We aren’t talking about the same thing: You’re praying for some physical nonsense, but Jews are praying for something else.

SJ:

“You seem to misunderstand the reality that I follow the Jewish religion. What I pray for three times a day has nothing to do with getting on a plane and going to the physical land called Eretz Yisroel. Once you figure that out that we aren’t talking about the same thing, you’ll understand why Jews don’t practice the same religion as Zionists.”

This is textbook intellectual dishonesty relying on a No True Scotsman fallacy to rewrite thousands of years of Jewish history to fit your personal politics. By claiming that Jewish prayer has “nothing to do” with the physical land, you aren’t just expressing a fringe opinion; you are gaslighting the very liturgy you claim to follow. From the Amidah to the Seder, the texts are explicit in their yearning for a literal, physical return to EY (AKA Tzion). To suggest that “real” Jews view these as mere metaphors is a fallacy of composition, where you’ve mistaken your specific sectarian bubble for the totality of the Jewish faith.

Furthermore, implying that others simply haven’t “figured out” your (or your Chassish sect’s) definition of Judaism is a transparent ad hominem shield used to deflect from the weakness of your logic. You’ve constructed a false dilemma that insists one cannot be both a religious Jew and a Zionist, conveniently ignoring the millions of religious Jews for whom the physical land is a central, divinely mandated obligation. Using your religious observance as a high-horse to excommunicate those who disagree with your politics doesn’t make you more “authentic”; it just makes your argument a series of logical failures wrapped in unearned arrogance.

As for your absurd comparison to Catholicism or attempt to frame any positive approach to the State as not being Judaism: Equating a core covenantal yearning for an ancestral land with a specific Catholic sacramental ritual is a desperate false analogy that only succeeds in exposing your profound ignorance of the physical, law-based nature of Judaism. Dismissing the literal “kibbutz galuyos” to a specific geography as “physical nonsense” isn’t spiritual insight; it is a transparent rhetorical dodge designed to gaslight anyone who has actually read a Siddur.

@ZSK

a rather weak response from you, as per usual. It will be an easy rebuttal. enjoy:

I am not at all rejecting the physical nature of the geila we are davening for, I am just adamant that we cannot exclude the spiritual geila (which is also the main part).

@simcha613’s “question” is very much like asking someone who believes (as all Jews do) in techiyas hamaisim why he doesn’t go now to the bais hachayim and dig up the bodies of his loved ones? Since, the @simcha613 logic would go, he davens for techiyas hamaisim every day, shouldn’t he be excited to go and at least have the bodies recovered to play with? Isn’t this what you are davening for and now Hashem has given you the means to get it? Do you not truly love your dead relatives? I mean, I’m not saying that this is or isn’t (so goes this foolish heresy) the techiyas hamaisim promised, we’re not prophets, but should you be running anyway to go get those bodies recovered? (ad kan lushon stupido)

I’ll let all the truth seekers enjoy the absurdity of the zionism and my above rejection of their false moshiach heretical catholic-like religion. If my response here is too difficult for your crooked antisemitic mind to grasp, go ahead and respond and express what bothers you, and I will happily dumb it down even more.