June 17, 2019 1:30 pm at 1:30 pm #1743159
Since the A community is responsible for the creation of many artificial factions (Modern Orthodox, Yeshivish, Balabatish, Brisk, etc etc) in Yiddishkeit are they Over on Lol Titgodedu?June 17, 2019 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #1743523RedlegParticipant
Yes, in my view.June 17, 2019 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #1743524
Some were. What about Syrians who ride bikes on shabbos or have their TVs on during Shabbos? Want to start this?June 17, 2019 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #1743542JosephParticipant
Clearly not as the A community is dominant in Klal Yisroel not only numerically but in strength of Torah Yiddishkeit, halachic observance and certainly in Limud Torah with by far the most successful yeshivos in creating the most talmidei chachomim.June 17, 2019 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #1743561YusselParticipant
Yes.June 17, 2019 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #1743563
Clearly, Sefardim who go to yeshiva of Flatbush are different from those who go to Ateret.June 17, 2019 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #1743588
We don’t see such artificial divisions among Sephardim. Why not?June 17, 2019 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #1743589
Joseph. The majority of American Jews are unaffiliated and intermarried. The vast majority of them are from the A community. So what Halachic observance are you referring to? The most unaffiliated, unobservant Jews are A. In Israel, most Hilonim and anti-religious are A. It’s a fact.
And did you use your Torah-meter to measure whose Torah learning is stronger?June 17, 2019 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #1743594
Sefardim who go to Ateret were infused with a foreign spirit. Hamevin yavin.June 17, 2019 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #1743595
YO has a victim complexJune 17, 2019 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1743606zahavasdadParticipant
We don’t see such artificial divisions among Sephardim. Why not?
has to do with the way Europe evolved in the 18th and 19th century , especially after Napoleon vs the way Sephardic countries were (They didnt change like the European countries did)June 17, 2019 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1743609
YO, yes there are. There are Sefardim who aren’t so religious who are anti-yeshiva. Lo aleinu, their kids are ebding up in rehab and who knows what. Don’t start this.June 17, 2019 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1743610
Today, there are many Hilonim who are sefardi. It used to be oyt of am haartzut. Today, it’s because they go to secular college.June 17, 2019 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1743614
Sefardim divisions are religious not religious rich poor mini skirt yoga pants or skirt syrian Persian Moroccan.June 17, 2019 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1743616
“We don’t see such artificial divisions among Sephardim. Why not?”
Are you kidding? This is coming from someone who seems to go to an Open Orthodox shul.
Obviously the people responsible for the initial schisms were over an issur (eg. the founder of Reform Judaism). You question is if the Ashkenazim who didn’t break away from Orthodoxy are also over an issur just to having the audacity to exist?
I really hope you’re a troll so that nobody this mentally disturbed exists in the real world.June 17, 2019 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #1743634
NCB don’t claim to know which shul I go to. And there you go, another artificial division: “Open Orthodox”. It almost seems like the A community is an expert at dividing up groups. Given enough time, they would be able to categorize 100 identical clones.June 17, 2019 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #1743658holymolyParticipant
“Some were. What about Syrians who ride bikes on shabbos or have their TVs on during Shabbos? Want to start this?”
The problem with the A movements that have gone awry is that they do things “leshem shamaim” and think they are correct. Most Sephardic “movements” that may blatantly disregard shabbos observance do not do so leshem shamaim and think they are correct. They know they are incorrect but don’t care. One is much different then the other. One has a chance of teshuva vs. the other cannot as they are always doing things “leshem shamaim”.
Now as far as the comment “Sefardim who go to Ateret were infused with a foreign spirit. ” One should be careful when stating this with such a short sighted vision. Obviously YO has not been around to see the actual metamorphosis of the Sephardic community. In the 40’s- 80’s it was a torah desert, where many shuls were actually making minyanim early shobbos morning to accommodate the people that needed to go to work and keep them at least close to the religion. Ateret filled the community with Torah study as the graduates have always come back and have integrated into the mainstream and taught Torah to the masses and laymen. Working on shabbos is few and far between today and torah study is flourishing. I shutter to the thought of a world without ateret, where the sephardic community would be today. YO obviously has a very limited background and does not like the adoption of some Litvisher yeshivah concepts into a sephardic yeshivah like Ateret, which is a different discussion in of itself. But to launch an unwarranted attack on ateret leads me to believe that YO is ill informed, or does not understand the actual history and progression of events. This lack of integrity is further perpetuated by the opening of such a Krum forum to begin with. We each have our weaknesses and strengths and to just open forums to point out, one groups weaknesses or strengths over another is counterproductive and not beneficial to either group. The aibishter has his plans. Our job is to continue to keep on learning Torah and doing mitzvos.June 17, 2019 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #1743682👑RebYidd23Participant
Most of these “groups” originated from different geographical locations.June 17, 2019 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #1743721
Holymoly very well said. I don’t agree 100% but well said nonetheless. I would add that A tend to do these things “Beshita” whereas S do things out of convenience, ignorance etc. Usually when an S doesn’t observe Shabbat, they know in “in theory I should be keeping Shabbat”. Doesn’t make it right but at least they are not kofer ba ikar.
Holymoly, you mentioned that the S community took on some Litvish things. Are there any positive S things that the A community has adopted?June 18, 2019 7:10 am at 7:10 am #1743761JosephParticipant
YO: You probably know the famous Halacha where the Sefardim hold like the Rema whereas the Ashkenazim hold like the Mechaber.June 18, 2019 7:13 am at 7:13 am #1743768Grey matterParticipant
Why is everyone knocking our brethren it started as one faction and it now seems we are knocking all it is unbecoming and unacceptable!!!June 18, 2019 7:19 am at 7:19 am #1743765
“They know they are incorrect but don’t care.”
This is halachically worse according to everyone (except maybe you if I’m understanding correctly).
“And there you go, another artificial division: “Open Orthodox”. ”
What point do you believe you’re making by throwing in the word “artificial?” The differences between these groups are very real. Just because you romanticize some probably non-existent past in which Sphardi communities didn’t differentiate between frum and frei people doesn’t change anything about today’s metzius, nor does it form any kind of coherent argument. Do you realize there are actual halachic differences between someone who is shomer shabbos and someone who isn’t? If you’d prefer us to use terms like posul l’aidus instead of “Conservative/Reform,” that’s fine, but you seem to prefer using English words for everything based on your Eretz Yisroel thread. Just let us know your preference on this meaningless, superficial topic so that you can move onto the next.June 18, 2019 7:21 am at 7:21 am #1743771
Some of us make sure to say we pray instead of Daven
BTW what is lo titgodedu ?
Perchance you mean lo sisgodidu ?
Once you opened it up can you explain to me what the sav did wrong that it is always mangled by the sefardim/tzionim ?
Like maybe we should say
Vanachnu korim umishtachavim umodim lipney melek malkay hamlakim
Or viahabta et hashem elokeka bikol libabka ubkol napshika ubkol miodekaJune 18, 2019 7:40 am at 7:40 am #1743839adocsParticipant
What is the famous Halacha?June 18, 2019 9:06 am at 9:06 am #1743847
Getting drunk on PurimJune 18, 2019 9:10 am at 9:10 am #1743848
“You probably know the famous Halacha where the Sefardim hold like the Rema whereas the Ashkenazim hold like the Mechaber.”
Getting drunk on Purim?June 18, 2019 9:10 am at 9:10 am #1743860
“Vanachnu korim umishtachavim umodim lipney melek malkay hamlakim” Some people do pronounce it like that and it wouldn’t be incorrect. However please look in a reliable siddur for the accurate words of Alenu Leshabeach.
“Artificial” is used because that’s what it is. There is no mekor in the Torah or Poskim for Balabatish, Yeshivish. These are contemporary A inventions.
The famous Halacha is Hanukkah.
And Sisgodedu?? No one says it like that. סיסגודדו??June 19, 2019 8:05 am at 8:05 am #1744294
I looked in a reliable siddur.
Problem is it differentiates between “Tuf ” and “suf” as well
So I am confused why there, there seems to be no difference yet between “kuf” and “chuf ” I always hear people differentiating.
As to your final point, yes that’s the correct way to pronounce it according to the ashkenazic havarah with does not differentiate between “suf ” and “samach ”
Just because you choose to spell it wrong does not make the pronunciation wrong.
Look it up in a reliable Chumash.
There is no dagesh in either “suf”June 19, 2019 8:42 am at 8:42 am #1744326
“There is no mekor in the Torah or Poskim for Balabatish, Yeshivish.”
This is just flat out false. Is the climax of this whole shtick going to be that you don’t think we should have poskim and that every yid should just make up his own halachah like Moreinu V’Rabbeinu Avi Weiss?June 19, 2019 10:01 am at 10:01 am #1744342MilhouseParticipant
Kluger, you ask what the sov did wrong. First of all, everyone agrees that it’s supposed to be a thov. The TH became an S when we lived among people whose languages did not have a TH sound. As for what it did wrong, probably the same thing that the ghimmel and dhalet did. Since approximately none of us pronounce those any more, we’re in no condition to complain about those who’ve dropped the thov, or even about the Syrians who’ve dropped the bheth.June 19, 2019 10:03 am at 10:03 am #1744350
“No one says it like that.”
Other than all of your ancestors who are turning over in their graves as you bash their mesora.June 19, 2019 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1744503
Do you have a Mekor where the Torah/Poskim talk about the need to divide people up into MO, Balabatish, Heimish?June 20, 2019 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #1745144
My apologies. I misread your post as saying “there’s no mekor in the Torah for poskim…” rather than “or poskim.”
This is why my response was about yidden poskening for themselves rather than consulting a posek. It was a post totally based on a misreading, so I retract that.
As to your actual point: if there were no rayes in the Torah to differentiate between the color red and the color green, would you have a problem with doing so? MO people are clearly different than Chareidim; there’s no point is pretending otherwise. They claim they’re better, we claim they’re worse. We live out our eternal struggle on the YWN CR. That’s how the world works.
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