Lo Titgodedu?

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  • #1743159

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Since the A community is responsible for the creation of many artificial factions (Modern Orthodox, Yeshivish, Balabatish, Brisk, etc etc) in Yiddishkeit are they Over on Lol Titgodedu?

    #1743523

    Redleg
    Participant

    Yes, in my view.

    #1743524

    lakewhut
    Participant

    Some were. What about Syrians who ride bikes on shabbos or have their TVs on during Shabbos? Want to start this?

    #1743542

    Joseph
    Participant

    Clearly not as the A community is dominant in Klal Yisroel not only numerically but in strength of Torah Yiddishkeit, halachic observance and certainly in Limud Torah with by far the most successful yeshivos in creating the most talmidei chachomim.

    #1743561

    Yussel
    Participant

    Yes.

    #1743563

    lakewhut
    Participant

    Clearly, Sefardim who go to yeshiva of Flatbush are different from those who go to Ateret.

    #1743588

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    We don’t see such artificial divisions among Sephardim. Why not?

    #1743589

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Joseph. The majority of American Jews are unaffiliated and intermarried. The vast majority of them are from the A community. So what Halachic observance are you referring to? The most unaffiliated, unobservant Jews are A. In Israel, most Hilonim and anti-religious are A. It’s a fact.

    And did you use your Torah-meter to measure whose Torah learning is stronger?

    #1743594

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Sefardim who go to Ateret were infused with a foreign spirit. Hamevin yavin.

    #1743595

    lakewhut
    Participant

    YO has a victim complex

    #1743606

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    We don’t see such artificial divisions among Sephardim. Why not?

    has to do with the way Europe evolved in the 18th and 19th century , especially after Napoleon vs the way Sephardic countries were (They didnt change like the European countries did)

    #1743609

    lakewhut
    Participant

    YO, yes there are. There are Sefardim who aren’t so religious who are anti-yeshiva. Lo aleinu, their kids are ebding up in rehab and who knows what. Don’t start this.

    #1743610

    lakewhut
    Participant

    Today, there are many Hilonim who are sefardi. It used to be oyt of am haartzut. Today, it’s because they go to secular college.

    #1743614

    lakewhut
    Participant

    Sefardim divisions are religious not religious rich poor mini skirt yoga pants or skirt syrian Persian Moroccan.

    #1743616

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “We don’t see such artificial divisions among Sephardim. Why not?”
    Are you kidding? This is coming from someone who seems to go to an Open Orthodox shul.

    Obviously the people responsible for the initial schisms were over an issur (eg. the founder of Reform Judaism). You question is if the Ashkenazim who didn’t break away from Orthodoxy are also over an issur just to having the audacity to exist?

    I really hope you’re a troll so that nobody this mentally disturbed exists in the real world.

    #1743634

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    NCB don’t claim to know which shul I go to. And there you go, another artificial division: “Open Orthodox”. It almost seems like the A community is an expert at dividing up groups. Given enough time, they would be able to categorize 100 identical clones.

    #1743658

    holymoly
    Participant

    “Some were. What about Syrians who ride bikes on shabbos or have their TVs on during Shabbos? Want to start this?”

    The problem with the A movements that have gone awry is that they do things “leshem shamaim” and think they are correct. Most Sephardic “movements” that may blatantly disregard shabbos observance do not do so leshem shamaim and think they are correct. They know they are incorrect but don’t care. One is much different then the other. One has a chance of teshuva vs. the other cannot as they are always doing things “leshem shamaim”.

    Now as far as the comment “Sefardim who go to Ateret were infused with a foreign spirit. ” One should be careful when stating this with such a short sighted vision. Obviously YO has not been around to see the actual metamorphosis of the Sephardic community. In the 40’s- 80’s it was a torah desert, where many shuls were actually making minyanim early shobbos morning to accommodate the people that needed to go to work and keep them at least close to the religion. Ateret filled the community with Torah study as the graduates have always come back and have integrated into the mainstream and taught Torah to the masses and laymen. Working on shabbos is few and far between today and torah study is flourishing. I shutter to the thought of a world without ateret, where the sephardic community would be today. YO obviously has a very limited background and does not like the adoption of some Litvisher yeshivah concepts into a sephardic yeshivah like Ateret, which is a different discussion in of itself. But to launch an unwarranted attack on ateret leads me to believe that YO is ill informed, or does not understand the actual history and progression of events. This lack of integrity is further perpetuated by the opening of such a Krum forum to begin with. We each have our weaknesses and strengths and to just open forums to point out, one groups weaknesses or strengths over another is counterproductive and not beneficial to either group. The aibishter has his plans. Our job is to continue to keep on learning Torah and doing mitzvos.

    #1743682

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Most of these “groups” originated from different geographical locations.

    #1743721

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Holymoly very well said. I don’t agree 100% but well said nonetheless. I would add that A tend to do these things “Beshita” whereas S do things out of convenience, ignorance etc. Usually when an S doesn’t observe Shabbat, they know in “in theory I should be keeping Shabbat”. Doesn’t make it right but at least they are not kofer ba ikar.

    Holymoly, you mentioned that the S community took on some Litvish things. Are there any positive S things that the A community has adopted?

    #1743761

    Joseph
    Participant

    YO: You probably know the famous Halacha where the Sefardim hold like the Rema whereas the Ashkenazim hold like the Mechaber.

    #1743768

    Grey matter
    Participant

    Why is everyone knocking our brethren it started as one faction and it now seems we are knocking all it is unbecoming and unacceptable!!!

    #1743765

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “They know they are incorrect but don’t care.”
    This is halachically worse according to everyone (except maybe you if I’m understanding correctly).

    “And there you go, another artificial division: “Open Orthodox”. ”
    What point do you believe you’re making by throwing in the word “artificial?” The differences between these groups are very real. Just because you romanticize some probably non-existent past in which Sphardi communities didn’t differentiate between frum and frei people doesn’t change anything about today’s metzius, nor does it form any kind of coherent argument. Do you realize there are actual halachic differences between someone who is shomer shabbos and someone who isn’t? If you’d prefer us to use terms like posul l’aidus instead of “Conservative/Reform,” that’s fine, but you seem to prefer using English words for everything based on your Eretz Yisroel thread. Just let us know your preference on this meaningless, superficial topic so that you can move onto the next.

    #1743771

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Yeah
    Yo
    Some of us make sure to say we pray instead of Daven

    BTW what is lo titgodedu ?
    Perchance you mean lo sisgodidu ?

    Once you opened it up can you explain to me what the sav did wrong that it is always mangled by the sefardim/tzionim ?
    Like maybe we should say
    Vanachnu korim umishtachavim umodim lipney melek malkay hamlakim

    Or viahabta et hashem elokeka bikol libabka ubkol napshika ubkol miodeka

    #1743839

    adocs
    Participant

    Joseph,

    What is the famous Halacha?

    #1743847

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Adocs
    Getting drunk on Purim

    #1743848

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “You probably know the famous Halacha where the Sefardim hold like the Rema whereas the Ashkenazim hold like the Mechaber.”
    Getting drunk on Purim?

    #1743860

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    “Vanachnu korim umishtachavim umodim lipney melek malkay hamlakim” Some people do pronounce it like that and it wouldn’t be incorrect. However please look in a reliable siddur for the accurate words of Alenu Leshabeach.

    “Artificial” is used because that’s what it is. There is no mekor in the Torah or Poskim for Balabatish, Yeshivish. These are contemporary A inventions.

    The famous Halacha is Hanukkah.

    And Sisgodedu?? No one says it like that. סיסגודדו??

    #1744294

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Yo
    I looked in a reliable siddur.
    Problem is it differentiates between “Tuf ” and “suf” as well
    So I am confused why there, there seems to be no difference yet between “kuf” and “chuf ” I always hear people differentiating.
    As to your final point, yes that’s the correct way to pronounce it according to the ashkenazic havarah with does not differentiate between “suf ” and “samach ”
    Just because you choose to spell it wrong does not make the pronunciation wrong.
    Look it up in a reliable Chumash.
    There is no dagesh in either “suf”

    #1744326

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “There is no mekor in the Torah or Poskim for Balabatish, Yeshivish.”
    This is just flat out false. Is the climax of this whole shtick going to be that you don’t think we should have poskim and that every yid should just make up his own halachah like Moreinu V’Rabbeinu Avi Weiss?

    #1744342

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Kluger, you ask what the sov did wrong. First of all, everyone agrees that it’s supposed to be a thov. The TH became an S when we lived among people whose languages did not have a TH sound. As for what it did wrong, probably the same thing that the ghimmel and dhalet did. Since approximately none of us pronounce those any more, we’re in no condition to complain about those who’ve dropped the thov, or even about the Syrians who’ve dropped the bheth.

    #1744350

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “No one says it like that.”
    Other than all of your ancestors who are turning over in their graves as you bash their mesora.

    #1744503

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Do you have a Mekor where the Torah/Poskim talk about the need to divide people up into MO, Balabatish, Heimish?

    #1745144

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    My apologies. I misread your post as saying “there’s no mekor in the Torah for poskim…” rather than “or poskim.”

    This is why my response was about yidden poskening for themselves rather than consulting a posek. It was a post totally based on a misreading, so I retract that.

    As to your actual point: if there were no rayes in the Torah to differentiate between the color red and the color green, would you have a problem with doing so? MO people are clearly different than Chareidim; there’s no point is pretending otherwise. They claim they’re better, we claim they’re worse. We live out our eternal struggle on the YWN CR. That’s how the world works.

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