Location of Kever Rochel and other kevarim

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  • #618866

    Joseph
    Participant

    Has the location of Kever Rochel been consistently known to Klal Yisroel from Yaakov Avinu’s times through now? (I know the building surrounding it is only a few hundred years old.) Or like how the ARIZAL rediscovered the locations of many kevarim in Eretz Yisroel from Chazal and earlier times, Kever Rochel was reidentified at a later date?

    #1204245

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Rashi says that when the words AD HAYOM HAZEH are in the passuk we are take it literally.

    #1204246

    Geordie613
    Participant

    I would think that was impossible, as the posuk in (I think) Yirmiyah says that during the time of golus bavel, the land was completely uninhabited, even the birds and animals wandered off and were gone.

    #1204247

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I thought that there have always been some Jews in E”Y.

    #1204248

    benignuman
    Participant

    There were definitely some people in E”Y (the Cuthim/Samaritans) during golus bavel. They are discussed in Ezra and Nechemia. I don’t know how that squares with the posuk Geordie613 is referring to.

    #1204249

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I don’t know what Possuk he is referring to, but I would imagine that it doesn’t say that there was not one single Yid in EY. It probably just means that it was relatively inhabited – like a desert with a few random bedouins wandering around.

    #1204250

    Geordie613
    Participant

    ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? -?????? ? ?

    #1204251

    assurnet
    Participant

    The location of Kever Rachel was still known at the beginning of galus bavel as Rashi brings down on Breshis 48:7 that Rahel Imeinu was davka buried there so Am Yisrael could go pass her tziun on the way to Bavel. If the mesora of the tzium was preserved for hundreds of years until then, it’s not such a stretch to assume the location was known 70 years later when the galus was over and even more so after people started coming back.

    I’ve heard several theories that the site known today isn’t valid but it’s from academically minded sources – I’ve yet to hear a Torah based svara. For example I’ve heard that the real location is in Adam or another that it’s in the north, however the pasukim are pretty clear that it’s a parsa from Beit Lechem in Efrat. There are those who want to say there have been multiple ancient locations named Beit Lechem but again there is only one area known as Efrat so it doesn’t make sense to assume it’s a Beit Lechem other than the one there.

    Yeshiva News has reported on Rav Kanievsky visiting the site so presumably he holds it’s the right one, and there was a story about 8 years ago involving Rav Mordechai Eliyahu davening there and having a gilui of Rachel Imeinu so it would seem he held it was the right location as well. Between Bayis Sheni and the rule of the Turkish Sultan I’m not sure if there are recorded sources of the mesorah but it would be something interesting to look up.

    I usually reference kevertzadik when looking for kivrei tzadikim – one of their guys does a lot of research into the sites.

    #1204252

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Sometimes what is not written can tell us quite a bit.

    The mother of Constantine the Great, Helena, is known to have traveled the length and breadth of Eretz Hakodesh, purportedly identifying all sorts of “locations” important to Christians, as well as some based on our traditions. For example, she decided she knew where the site of the eish mitoch hasneh was, and promptly built a church there. etc.

    Why do I bring up this delusional old lady and her travels? Because several of the people who were with her wrote down her pronouncements. Primary sources. And though she spent much time in Beit Lechem, where she decided on the site of a pretty famous church, from the sources at the time she says absolutely nothing about kever rochel.

    The implication is clear. Her scribes wrote nothing about it because, like the Maaras hamachpela and the mokom hamikdosh, the site was already very well known. She couldn’t apply her “inspiration” to things that were already being identified and used for many many years.

    #1204253

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Geordie – thanks for quoting the possuk. One would have to see what the mefarshim say of course, but it still seems to me that it is possible that it doesn’t mean literally “no-one”. Also, it could mean that there were specific places where no one passed by. If there were only a few Yidden left in EY, it makes sense that many parts of EY would be deserted (since the few people would probably live near each other).

    #1204254

    lebidik yankel
    Participant

    iacisrmma; can you point out that rashi? I recall several pesukim that say “ad hayom” which probably only refer to the day the Torah was written. Such as the law that a fifth of all produce grown in Egypt goes to Paroh…ad hayom!

    #1204255

    Geordie613
    Participant

    lebidik yankel, Off topic, but is your username connected to song of the same title I heard a few years ago in Manchester?

    #1204256

    lebidik yankel
    Participant

    Old yiddishe song, from the mussar Yeshivos in Europe

    #1204257

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    It is not a Rashi in chumash but in the gemorah. I am trying to recall where.

    #1204258

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    I retract my previous comment. See Beraishis Perek Chaf Bais Passuk Yud Daled Rashi Divrei Hamaschil HAYOM. Now Rashi says AD HAYOM HAZEH while by Kever Rochel it says AD HAYOM.

    #1204259

    benignuman
    Participant

    Geordie613 and Lilmod,

    I think I have the answer. Rashi on that posuk and the Gemara in Shabbos 145b limit the application of the posuk to Yehudah. ??? ????? ???? ?”? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ????? (?????? ?, ?) ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???’ ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????

    Yehudah refers to the portion of E”Y that was held by the Malchus Bais David after the split. So it may very well be that no person walked in Yehudah for 52 years, but other parts of E”Y were still populated and still had Jews.

    #1204260

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Benignuman, thanks for the explanation. So my second explanation would fit with that. My first would not – since Chazal seem to take it very literally – “lo avar ish” – no one even passed by.

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