January 26, 2009 1:59 am at 1:59 am #634806
BasYisroel2: your welcome the coffee room is a really warm place!!! enjoy the coffee room’s a fun place!!! thanx for answering my question!!!!January 26, 2009 2:08 am at 2:08 am #634809
azi, you are mistaken once again. but please be careful in the future not to malign your bubbes when you make these mistakes.January 26, 2009 3:07 am at 3:07 am #634811
You are an agitator. It’s a cute line you came up with: “you are mistaken”. Ive seen you use it before. don’t deny history. It doesnt serve anyone any good.
The facts are that it in no way maligned anyone by saying they didnt cover their hair bacuse at the time there was no chiyuv, the reason being as the Novordoker Rav wrote that hair is no longer a davar hamekusah. (hair covering is d’rabbanan)
If you write “you are mistaken” it will be to the aruch hashulchan, not me. Let me see you write that.January 26, 2009 3:31 am at 3:31 am #634812
Please. You are treading on thin ice. Did you read the new rules posted? One of them is specifically regarding Loshon Hara.
As far as your amartzus (and mods, there is no nicer way to put it — this is halacha) regarding the Aruch Hashulchan — The Aruch Hashulchan (Orech Chaim 75:8) specifically says that it is forbidden for a woman to go outside without her hair covered. He is maiked regarding it being considered erva when a man must say a bracha, as long as the man cannot see her hair while he is reciting the blessing. However, the Mishna Brura (75:10) strongly disagrees even with this leniency (that is anyways only applicable regarding a man reciting a bracha in her prescence) and forbids any blessing or prayers to be said in the presence of a married woman with her hair uncovered. This applies even to a husband in his own home if his wife has not fully covered her hair.January 26, 2009 3:59 am at 3:59 am #634813
Aruch Hashulchan 72:7: “Now let us come and cry out regarding the immodesty of our generation, because of our many sins. For many years (some) Jewish women have been neglectful regarding this transgression, and they go with uncovered hair. All which they (the leaders, rabbis) have screamed about this has not helped or accomplished anything. Now the plague has spread, that married women go about with their hair just like unmarried women! Woe to us that such has occurred in our days.”
According to Torah law, married women must cover their hair whenever they are outside their home. A woman who fails to do so forfeits her kesubah and should technically be divorced by her husband (Kesuvos 72a; E.H. 115:1-4). Mishnah Berurah 75:14 and Beiur Halachah say it must even be covered inside the home.
Since the hair must be covered, when it is not covered it is considered an ervah, an uncovered area. No male may recite Kerias Shema, pray, recite a blessing, or learn Torah when the uncovered hair is visible to him (O.C. 75:2. This halachah applies to one’s own wife, sister, mother, etc. as well.). Accordingly, if such a person happens to be at the Shabbos table, Kiddush may not be recited.
The Mishna Brura states: even if it is the custom of this woman and her friends in that place to walk with uncovered hair publicly, in the way of immodest people, one may not recite prayers in view of her hair.January 26, 2009 4:10 am at 4:10 am #634814AshreinuParticipant
This thread spun away after a few posts – why the pessimism and jabbing?! Keep that junk for the humor thread… come one!!January 26, 2009 4:16 am at 4:16 am #634815
To asdfghjkl: from what you posted before about JMAs- there were JMA awards in Eretz Yisroel.I belive that MBD and Shwekey were some of the performers that have previously won.I dont know if they still have the JMA’s. I belive that you can veiw previous JMAs on cds that they sell in E”Y called Chasidishkiet(only certain ones) hosted by Menachem Toker.January 26, 2009 5:24 am at 5:24 am #634816
All that on a Sunday night!!! And for ME!!!!!!!
But seriously, how much did the Bar Ilan CD’s cost you?January 26, 2009 5:31 am at 5:31 am #634817
BasYisroel2: thanx!!! i always thought the jewish singers should get award!!! please head to the new members thread & leave a comment there, so ya could get a proper welcome from the rest of the coffee room members!!!January 26, 2009 5:55 am at 5:55 am #634818
Joseph. Well done!!!January 26, 2009 6:00 am at 6:00 am #634819qwertyuiopMember
joseph: thanx for the Halacha, i didn’t know that till now.$January 26, 2009 7:11 am at 7:11 am #634822shkoyachMember
Oh man!(asdf.. thanks again!) For goodness sake… I started this post to be a helpful place for chevra not knowing where to start with shidduchim and leave it up you bros here in the CR to make it a shidduch humor page…. shoulda known. 🙁
I love your humor but this really is a help page that probbaly wont get too much help for peeps!
Azi and R’ Jo: No blanket statements. We all know the halacha so thanks for quoting it. as for Azi- I have a picture of my great grandmother in poland wearing a shaitel. No shpitzel Joseph. A shaitel (yarnlike and not hairlike but still a shaitel) I have other relatives that didn’t. Its like someone in 100 yrs from now blanket statementing that Americans didnt cover their hair. Yesh V Yesh (forget the dif circumstances, not the point!)
Curious: Rating how frum from the shadchan… I’d tell her/ him depends on my mood and what time of day. In the morn, when i am in bed, a 1 and half. at 12 pm a 52 off the charts…. at 6 I guess a 8.222543789…. !!!!!!!!!!!!! (sorry asdf… stole that from you too )
Itzik: had something to say to you on a few posts ago but now I forgot so oops. i guess I wont say it.
NOW KEEP THIS ON TOPIC OR ELSE I WILL BE VERY VERY NOT HAPPY AND YOU DO NOT WANT THAT TO HAPPEN!!!! CONSIDER THAT A WARNING 🙂 hehe i sound so scary!January 26, 2009 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #634823mchemtobMember
here’s a joke…would we make a shidduch with anyone from the torah
Yitzchak Avinu : Well his grandfather made idols, and there was all that nastiness with Lot and his half brother is an arab.
Yakov Avinu: His great grandfather made idols, his brother went of the derech, his mother comes from a very treyfe family, and he wasn’t shomer negiah with rachel imenu before they were married and he spent a lot of time with his uncle who’s mamash a rasha.
Dovid HaMelech: Descendants from a geyoret, not our kind of people. Sure a few generations have gone but all things being equal shouldn’t we look for someone with a more jewish backround.
Shlomo HaMelech: See above.. And his mother’s marriage was very dubious, he is rich though but the yichus and family backround is very tricky.January 27, 2009 12:48 am at 12:48 am #634824
Jay, qwerty – Yasher koach.
azi – I haven’t ever seen that product.January 27, 2009 1:01 am at 1:01 am #634825
shkoyach: seems like i got an admirer!!!January 27, 2009 2:51 am at 2:51 am #634826shkoyachMember
uh oh…. is that good or bad (notice I did not say Oh Man!)January 27, 2009 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #634827
azi the better question is how much does it cost YOU to avoid learning and correcting your errors, simply to satisfy your preconceived notions and agendas?January 27, 2009 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #634828
Nowdays in shidduchim it is very important to have a few things in mind:
1. Get your name out there if you have any relatives or family friends that have boys may know of boys from work or a Yeshiva.. let them know that you are looking for a shidduch.
2.Every Person needs to find a quality person. By quality I am refering to middos and Yaraei Shmayim, and Tznius.Quality does not refer to money, yichus, laces,tableclothes, ketchup on Shabbos ect.. or any of the other ridiculous quuestions that I get asked.Which people seem to think are what makes up a quality people.There are plenty of people that look all frum and have gone to the best yeshivos and Bais Yaakovs but are not really to frum and are involved in/with things that you dont want to be -vhameivin yavin
3.The most important thing of all:Someone gave me this piece of advice:
Do not let the Yetzer Hora get to you!Don’t let the Yetzer Hora bring you down.Try to think positivley and surround your self with positive thinking people.
4. Daven and don’t stop .This time period I have come much closer to Hashem.My Davening has a diffrent meaning now.
There is a shidduch crisis/mess whatever you want to call it.You can pretend it doesn’t exsist by burying your head in the sand.I have lots of friends that have been out of seminary from anywhere to 3-6 years and have never had a date they sit there waiting for the phone to ring, and they done plenty hishtadlus.However they are not “good enough”,”rich enough”,”yichusdig enough” -fill in the blank_____________.
The shidduch parsha is a tough one belive me I know.However you can’t give up hope.You have to do your Hishtadlus but at the end of the day it’s all in Hashem’s hands.There have been moments were I felt like packing my bags and going to an island where nobody knows me.There are times where I have had it.Shidduchim can be very fustrating.
However you have to remember that it is not Lakewood,or a Swiss Bank account, or any shadchanim that are going to guarantee you/get you your zivug it is Hashem.Hashem dosen’t take a two vacation to Florida, Eretz Yisroel ect…He is there for you 24/7.Shidduchim is like crossing Kriyas Yam suf.Some people have longer paths to take and others have shorter ones.I hope that all those that are still wating by the water banks that your sea voyage is a really short one!January 27, 2009 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #634829
ketchup on Shabbos
That’s a new one to me. What’s the deal with ketchup on Shabbos (or the lack thereof) being a relevant factor in people warped ideas of what makes a good shidduch?
The WolfJanuary 27, 2009 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #634830
I have lots of friends that have been out of seminary from anywhere to 3-6 years and have never had a date they sit there waiting for the phone to ring, and they done plenty hishtadlus.
If this is a common phenomenon (i.e. girls who have been waiting by the phone for three to six years and not getting a single date) then the system is terribly broken. That’s the point where you have to start organizing a few singles functions.
The WolfJanuary 27, 2009 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #634831
I have no agenda, i responded to a purposely agitating comment by Joe. I have seen his comments for a while and i beleve he goes around to disturb different forums.
More importantly I did not correct any errors. I have the truth and the facts on my side. If people want to change history for whatever reason, it’s not my problem. I will happily tell my children that Miriam spoke loshon hara about her brother, about Yehuda and Tamars relationship and that their great grandmothers, although they were zadekises, they did not cover their hair. Thats all.January 27, 2009 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #634832
To wolf: Some crazy people have a problem with ketchup on shabbos.Because ketchup is not a “classy food/very weekdayish” and they dont want that for their precious child.It doesn’t fit with their ideal/their shpitz of a Shabbos meal!I seriously feel that some peole need to be certified.
I agree with you that we need single functions.However nobody wants to make them for the younger crowds.When I go to chasunas there are so many boys and girls.Let them meet with proper supervision for lets say dessert or right after the chuppa before the Chosson and Kallah come in for dancing.Or have some sort of speed dating thing.Where nobody has to commit to everything.There are lots of cases where a boy’s mother will say no to a girl because she dosen’t think that the girl is pretty enough for her “Moshe Rabbeinu”.However her son may feel diffrentley when he sees the girl.The girl is rejected by the mother while her son may think that she is gorgeous!
Don’t tell me that its untznius because I don’t buy that.In the time of Chazal there was something called Tu Bav.Where a girl was not judged by her yichus and money!The girls use to dance in front of the boys.I am not suggesting that.However a tznius meetings/events with supervision needs to be made.January 27, 2009 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #634833
However nobody wants to make them for the younger crowds
If a girl hasn’t had a date in six years, she is no longer in the “younger crowd.”
I’m not suggesting getting a bunch of 18 and 19 year-olds together in a room and letting them at each other. But when someone starts hitting the mid 20s, I think they’re probably mature enough to actually meet people on their own without having to wait for a shadchun to call. For this singles crowd, I think social events are very necessary.
The WolfJanuary 27, 2009 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #634834
Because ketchup is not a “classy food/very weekdayish” and they dont want that for their precious child.It doesn’t fit with their ideal/their shpitz of a Shabbos meal!
Now *that* has to be one of the stupidest things I ever heard.
I guess my kids are never going to get a shidduch. We sometimes have *gasp* spaghetti and meatballs for Shabbos. 🙂
The WolfJanuary 27, 2009 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #634835
wolf – really? that’s the coolest thing i’ve heard in a long while!January 27, 2009 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #634836
moish, the singles functions? Or the spaghetti and meatballs?January 27, 2009 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #634837coke not pepsiMember
sqeak, ur on a roll today i mammish lol LAUGHED OUT LOUD by a bunch of ur posts today 🙂January 27, 2009 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #634838
squeak – what do you think?January 27, 2009 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #634839
I don’t need to think to figure out what you meant.January 27, 2009 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #634841
ames – you don’t remember anything – you completely made that up. MOISH will eat a good chulent at any given moment – doesn’t matter the day of the week (or hour!)January 28, 2009 1:35 am at 1:35 am #634842
shkoyach: it was in a good way the admirer thing!!! thnx!!!January 28, 2009 1:59 am at 1:59 am #634843
ames: I wonder where the mods. are tonight.Do you think all of the bickering over here drove them away?January 28, 2009 2:11 am at 2:11 am #634844Hill of BeansMember
azi: squeak is right. you posited the aruch hashulchan permits the hair to be uncovered and you were shown the quote from the sefer that says the exact opposite. so the facts aren’t on your side and you should take squeak’s advice and correct your errors.January 28, 2009 2:12 am at 2:12 am #634845
BasYisroel2: not a chance!!!January 28, 2009 3:37 am at 3:37 am #634847zimbyMember
ames: I read that article in the Mishpacha magazine. I thought it was really on target with whats going on in the shidduch world today. Very well written and to the point. It’s a shame that the people that need to read it probably wont.January 28, 2009 5:26 am at 5:26 am #634848
ames: Lol- ur starting to read me like a book!January 28, 2009 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #634849
Hill of Beans
You already lost the debate. Never did I write that the Aruch Hashulchan paskend that a womwn doesn’t neeed to cover her hair. What I wrote was that he confirms that during his lifetime, women did not cover her hair. So I am correct, as he confirms the fact that they didn’t. squeek, joseph and now apparently you get to exited when you see an issue like hair coveing, so you don’t even bother to read the comment in its entirety.January 28, 2009 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #634850
azi to quote your post on page 2: “See the Aruch Hashulchan who paskens that hair in longer a dover sheberva, since woman don’t cover it anymore.”
azi to quote your recent post: “Never did I write that the Aruch Hashulchan paskend that a womwn doesn’t neeed to cover her hair.”
no need for me to comment, azi, are doing a pretty good job in digging yourself in a hole in this debateJanuary 28, 2009 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #634851
You are correct in quoting me, but you haven’t seen the Aruch inside, so it’s only fair that you don’t understand what he was referring to (and ipso facto what I meant). He wrote that it is no longer a dover sheberva and therefore a man can make a brocha in front of uncovered hair. He didn’t write, nor did I claim that he wrote that women do not need to cover their hair.
Do you think I assumed that the Aruch Hashulchan was a reform rabbi, changing halacha with the times? He wrote what I said he wrote, thats a fact, if you don’t like it, go find where he’s buried and complain. I’m just his humble messenger.January 28, 2009 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #634852zimbyMember
ames, This is one of the only aritcles I read from him. I give him a lot credit for addressing the issue.January 28, 2009 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #634853
You are correct in quoting me, but you haven’t seen the Aruch inside, so it’s only fair that you don’t understand what he was referring to (and ipso facto what I meant).<<
No, I have seen it inside. Do you often make accusations without basis of fact?
>> He wrote that it is no longer a dover sheberva and therefore a man can make a brocha in front of uncovered hair. He didn’t write, nor did I claim that he wrote that women do not need to cover their hair.<<
He did not write that it is “no longer” he was discussing a situation where one is in a location where such is the practice. He did not say that is is now an “across the board halacha”. It is actually quite a relative halacha.
Additionally, you did not initially make this distinction. You originally claimed “See the Aruch Hashulchan who paskens that hair in longer a dover sheberva, since woman don’t cover it anymore.” This very much implies that since it is not a davar sheb’erva, one need not cover it. You did not make the distinction that this was solely a halacha regarding brachos. It was only after Joseph made the distinction that you applied it as well. Did you not know the distinction? Did you want people to look it up? or did you purposely mislead people?
>>Do you think I assumed that the Aruch Hashulchan was a reform rabbi, changing halacha with the times?<<
Not at all.
>> He wrote what I said he wrote, thats a fact, if you don’t like it, go find where he’s buried and complain.<<
That is like saying Dovid Hamelech said: ??-??-????? ??? ??-?????? ?????
>> I’m just his humble messenger. <<
I’m not sure what disturbs me more the claim of being a messenger, or the claim of doing it humbly. Neither one seems fittingJanuary 28, 2009 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #634854
>>Do you often make accusations without basis of fact<<
No, but your ignorance of the subject would lead anyone to make a similar “accusation”.
>>Additionally, you did not initially make this distinction<<
I didn’t quote the Aruch for it’s halacha, but rather for the interesting point he makes concerning the hair covering situation in his lifetime. Not everyone has time like Joseph and you to write a whole megilla. I made a simple point with a source to back me up. Thats all.
>>I’m not sure what disturbs me more the claim of being a messenger, or the claim of doing it humbly. Neither one seems fitting<<
I feel this shows that your claims have all been based on emotion. Your passion to defend your lifestyle, by claiming everyone throughout history has lived exactly as you do, has led you way of base. Again it was a point regarding history, I had a support.January 28, 2009 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #634855
>>I feel this shows that your claims have all been based on emotion. Your passion to defend your lifestyle, by claiming everyone throughout history has lived exactly as you do, has led you way of base. Again it was a point regarding history, I had a support.<<
Please show me where I have made this claim. I know the history and I know about the drives to get women to resume covering their hair in the USA. I too have pictures of frum family members showing all of their hair (once again, great job making an accusation without basis of facts).
Additionally, my comment was not about the history, only the fact that YOU did not indicate that you were bringing in the Aruch to show that women didn’t cover their hair WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS ERVA. By saying what you did, “He wrote that it is no longer a dover sheberva and therefore a man can make a brocha in front of uncovered hair” you ventured into a halachic conversation.
>>No, but your ignorance of the subject would lead anyone to make a similar “accusation”.<<
Where is the ignorance. I only requested that you make it known why you were quoting the aruch in the first place, which you did not. and you then follow up your statement which was easily taken out of context by insulting people who took it on face value.
>>Not everyone has time like Joseph and you to write a whole megilla<<
fewer people have the time, resources or know-how to look up the aruch. So why say the quote that you did, and why assume people would either know the aruch or look it up, when by your own admission acknowlege people do not have the time for such things.
You know what you wanted to say, but that does not mean that the other members of the coffee room do, AND THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE ARE IGNORANT.
Once again, I am not a revisionist and I am not here to paint a different picture of the past. but your original comment and subsequent justifications are akin to saying that we say 3 times day in davening : ??-??-????? ??? ??-?????? ?????.January 28, 2009 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #634856
>>I too have pictures of frum family members showing all of their hair (once again, great job making an accusation without basis of facts).<<
I know you had relatives who didn’t cover their hair. That was my initial point. Unless ones whole family is from Hungary, they have had many relativs and great grandmothers who didn’t cover their hair.
>>By saying what you did, “He wrote that it is no longer a dover sheberva and therefore a man can make a brocha in front of uncovered hair” you ventured into a halachic conversation<<
If you followed my debate with Joseph, you would have seen that my claim wasn’t one of halacha. Rather he tried to correct me stating that women indeed covered their hair. I quoted the Novordoker Rav who wrote that in his time the uncovered hair of women was so rampant that it no longer constituted a davar hamekusa. Without that sentence I would not have been able to use him as a source for my point. It stresses the fact that it was more than just a few women, but rather whole communities.
>>Where is the ignorance. I only requested that you make it known why you were quoting the aruch in the first place, which you did not. <<
I appologize for using that term.
I have written countless times what my purpose in quoting the Aruch was.
>>but your original comment and subsequent justifications are akin to saying that we say 3 times day in davening : ??-??-????? ??? ??-?????? ?????.<<
2 + 2 = 6January 28, 2009 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #634857
at least we are good.
Not everyone is able to follow conversations on the boards. Remember, a few days ago, there were many more posts in between. Additionally, not every time is a poster coming as a continuation of their previous post sometimes they are coming with a fresh idea. Try to keep that in mind in the future.
But, as I said, we are good.January 29, 2009 1:03 am at 1:03 am #634858Hill of BeansMember
azi, you seemed to posit that it was acceptable that some women didn’t cover their hair, and use the aruch hashulchan to prove that when in fact that sefer greatly bemoans (“Now let us come and cry out regarding the immodesty”) that.January 29, 2009 1:14 am at 1:14 am #634859
Hill of Beans
I made a point in my first comment on this topic of hair covering, that the Aruchs comment no longe applies. WHAT MORE CAN I SAY? You see what you want to see.
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