Maa'se Satan

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  • #604738

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    This post is for Toi (and others), to explain to me what it means “Ma’ase Satan (if they so desire). I had said in another thread regarding Ma’ase Satan:

    It also is pure Avodah Zara. Satan has no independent power in Judaism. If you believe in “Ma’ase Satan”, then you are a Catholic.

    For those who may be unaware, in Yiddishkeit, Satan is a tool of Hashem. As the Gemorah in Bava Basra says, Satan, the Yetzer Hara, and the Malach HaMoves are the same entity, and that Satan does his actions “Leshem Shomayim” (or he at least claims to do so). This is opposed to Islam, where Shaitan is allowed to prosecute humans to test them, but does so from spite, and still has no independent powers.

    On the other hand, in Catholicism, Satan is a fallen Angel who rebels against god (upper or lower case). He has independent “powers”, and is defeated in the end. His goal is to get humans to stray, and is called “god of the earth”.

    Now that we have an explanation of the issues, I await your thoughts.

    #901271

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The Gemara says that the Satan acted twice L’shem Shamayim. Don’t overdo his Tzidkus. Do you really think the sinking off the whole Malchus Yisroel and its demise was Lishem Shamayim?

    Weather you accept that Terutz from the Satmar Rav zt”l or not, don’t mock his words as a Shita of Avoda Zara.

    #901272

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    The Gemara says that the Satan acted twice L’shem Shamayim. Don’t overdo his Tzidkus. Do you really think the sinking off the whole Malchus Yisroel and its demise was Lishem Shamayim?

    Weather you accept that Terutz from the Satmar Rav zt”l or not, don’t mock his words as a Shita of Avoda Zara.

    1: You must have a different Gemorah then I do. See BB 16a & Keddushin 81a/b. And yes, that is his job. Without it, there would be no purpose in living.

    2: I don’t mock Rav Yoel Satmer Rov. He is not the one who said Satan has his own powers. If he did, then yes I do hold him accountable and it is Avodah Zara. Zaken Mammrei is or could have been the Gadol Hador.

    #901273

    yichusdik
    Participant

    1. There is no power in the universe independent of Hashem’s will. Any shitah that says otherwise is indeed kefirah, or avodah zarah, or whatever you want to call it. I don’t care who says it, its not Yiddishkeit.

    2. The only entities that are imbued with bechirah chofshis, as far as I know, are us, human beings. Of course, that is as far as I know. HKBH can do what he wants, and give it to something else, and he doesn’t have to send us an email to let us know.

    3. Describing something as “Maaseh” Soton is ascribing creative powers to something that doesn’t have independent capacity to create. Putting aside for a minute whether that is kefira, or avodah zarah, or a twisted Jewish version of gnostic dualism, it simply defies logic.

    #901274

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Satan is a malach. It has no free will of its own, it can only do the job Hashem gives it. The job of the Satan is to get people to do wrong. That’s not necessarily a bad thing. The Ramban writes that it is because we have the choice to do bad that we can be rewarded for doing good. If we could only do good, then what is the big deal about it? It’s only when we can go either way, and we choose the good, that we can be rewarded for it.

    Saying something is maaseh Satan doesn’t mean that Satan has independent powers. It simply is doing its job. Sometimes it tries to disguise things as good, when they really are bad. This was the Gra’s opinion on chassidus, and it’s the Satmar view on Zionism and Israel. It still comes from the Satan. It is just doing the job Hashem gave it.

    #901275

    WIY
    Member

    yichusdik

    Malachim technically also have free will however it is almost as if they dont because they are in the presence of Hashem so it makes it EXTREMELY DIFFICULT almost impossible to rebel when Hashem is in your face so to speak.

    However there are malachim that have rebelled like Shemchazzoi and Azael who had fallen from heaven in the days of the generation of Enosh.

    #901276

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Malachim technically also have free will however it is almost as if they dont because they are in the presence of Hashem so it makes it EXTREMELY DIFFICULT almost impossible to rebel when Hashem is in your face so to speak.

    Correct. See BB 74B (which I have brought here before).

    #901277

    yichusdik
    Participant

    WIY, there’s a reason Sefer Enosh wasn’t included in Tanach, and why the edus avrohom wasn’t either. And discussions of Azael and others are not based in sources in Torah Shebichsav. Rambam rejects the notion that Azael was anything other than symbolism, though Ramban considered him a demon. I defer to Rambam on this, and I’m not interested in discussing demonology on yeshivaworld. there are plenty of forums elsewhere for those so inclined.

    #901278

    shein
    Member

    WIY is absolutely correct and his point holds.

    #901279

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    There are plenty of mamarei Chazal about Malachim being punished. I don’t know what you were trying to prove from kedushin, but the gemara in BB, that I was coming off, doesn’t say that as a rule his work is Lishma. If that were the case Hashem wouldn’t slaughter it.

    #901280

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Is the CR a maase satan?

    Is Joseph, Malach Hamaves, and popa_bar-abba all the same being with different screennnames?

    Does Joseph have bechira chofshis to leave the CR? How about popa?

    #901281

    Curiosity
    Participant

    “???? ?’ ?? ????”

    The pasuk says Hashem will “rebuke” the Satan. It’s hard to understand why Hashem would rebuke an entity with no free will, or one that does precisely what Hashem commands.

    #901282

    Josh31
    Participant

    Mystical terms should not be bandied around like footballs.

    The writings of the Satmar Rav were written to be read by Torah Scholars. I doubt that he would have given permission for these writings to be translated into English.

    Even Tanach verses that mention such concepts, should not be among the first passages one learns.

    #901283

    HaKatan
    Participant

    According to some, Malachim, DO have bechira. They just have such clarity of understanding that it wouldn’t occur to them to rebel.

    Maaseh Satan is obviously referring to what Hashem has allowed the Satan to do to test Klal Yisrael. That test of Zionism has been a smashing success (or failure, depending on your perspective), unfortunately.

    Of course, the Satan has no independent powers outside of what Hashem grants him, as with everything else.

    To help illustrate this, the Egel HaZahav was clearly allowed by Hashem to happen, but it was obviously not what He “wanted”. Neither, obviously, did He “want” the State of Israel, as is amply clear now to any objective observer of history.

    #901285

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    sorry Hakatan,

    the nissim giluim through all the wars they faced, the countless rocket that have no destuction disprove you

    #901286

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Coffee, you are now arguing an opinion. You are making another point completely. In other words, Maase Satan, as in the river by the Akeida or the vision of Moshe Rabbeinu’s Mita, does make sense. You just feel that it doesn’t apply here.

    #901287

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    exactly, I understand that HaLeivi.

    HaKatan was stating it as a fact

    “Neither, obviously, did He “want” the State of Israel, as is amply clear now to any objective observer of history.”

    I’m stating that it’s an opinion

    #901288

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    WIY: What you are quoting comes straight out of the Mishnah’s “seforim chitzonim” kiphshuto uch’mashma’o. How can you use Apocrypha in a Torah discussion?

    #901289

    HaKatan
    Participant

    coffee addict, the Torah itself commands us to not pay heed to miracles, but it’s anyways not a proof to anything here. Not to mention we anyways don’t know Hashem’s ways and reasons: “Ki lo Machshivosai Machshivoseichem viLo Darkeichem Dirachai…”, as we see in Navi.

    This has all been hashed and rehashed before.

    By your logic, Hitler’s rise to power and his terrible atrocities was also what Hashem “wanted”, because if you study the history of how he got to where he did, there was no realistic way that it should have ever happened. It was nissim that the Holocaust DID happen, on the scale of Purim (lihavdil, ayein the mifarshim).

    I apologize if this offended anyone, but this truth is very illustrative of how fallacious this Zionist fantasy is; nissim are not endorsement, as Hashem Himself says so in the Torah.

    Also, one who holds your logic might explain why they don’t convert to Christianity or Islam. How did those faiths come to claim well over a billion of combined adherents, if it wasn’t the ratzon Hashem? Obviously, Hashem does things that aren’t necessarily what we should be aiming for, which He has His Own reasons for.

    Regardless, in the nidon didan, the alternative to those nissim was and still is, Hashem Yishmor, “lo nishtaaru miSoneihem shel Yisrael afilu sarid uPalit” in Eretz Yisrael. So the reason for those nissim is pretty clear: simple pikuach nefesh. Not to mention that Hashem can have his own reasons that have nothing to do with endorsing Zionism, such as allowing bechira, etc.

    It is sadly foolish and a chutzpah to take these chasdei Hashem, past and present, as an endorsement of this maaseh satan which has been, sadly, so successful in fooling our people.

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