Makeup on Shabbos

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  • #609468
    younglady
    Member

    Hi!

    I have a few questions regarding makeup on shabbos, accurate answers will be appreciated.

    1) Are you allowed to put on mascara on shabbos? if not why, the mascara is the same colour as your eyelashes, and is it mamareach or mimachaich?

    2) Are you allowed to dab coverup? and also dabbing lip gloss? If not please give reasoning.

    3)Are you allowed to take off makeup on shabbos with just water?

    Answers with a reason will be very helpful.

    Thanks!

    #956319

    afaik

    1: no – its still tzoveiah cause it’s a color. and its smearing

    2: no – also a color. about coverup ask, some poskim give heterim

    3: yes, and you can use soap too

    just fyi, they sell Shabbos make up which is in line with r’ moshe feinstein

    #956320
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    I know you’re not allowed to put makeup on on Shabbos, but I don’t know why. Something to do with smearing. 🙂

    As for taking it off – as far as I know you’re allowed to wash off your makeup.

    #956321
    aimhabonim
    Participant

    To clarify what resident of ds9 wrote, the only soap that can be used on Shabbos is liquid soap. (Not bar soap.)

    #956322
    younglady
    Member

    How about using eye makeup removal?

    #956323
    SaysMe
    Member

    you can use eye makeup remover, but you cannot use cotton balls to apply it. Or tissues. Though you can pour it onto your hand, rub it on, then wipe off with tissues.

    #956324
    nitpicker
    Participant

    “just fyi, they sell Shabbos make up which is in line with r’ moshe feinstein “

    so claims the rav who gave the hechsher. very far fetched though.

    once again you are asking actual shailos halacha l’maasa of the coffee room. and posters are poskening for you!

    mods are you all asleep?

    #956325
    younglady
    Member

    Thanks!

    What about dabbing lip gloss that is clear? what about dabbing Vaseline?

    #956326
    be good
    Participant

    While we’re on this topic, I’ve been wondering for a while about using powder with a brush on shabbes.

    Can anyone tell me if they’ve asked a shaila or/and they know what the halacha is on using a brush to brush on:

    A) Translucent powder

    B) Colored powder (Blush/Bronzer)

    (think Bare Minerals)

    I will of course ask a proper shaila to my rov, but just wanted to get some background before I ask.

    Thanks.

    #956327
    notasheep
    Member

    I think it says something about our generation that people are asking about makeup on shabbos. it’s not allowed, get over it. just put a little more on before shabbos or find a really good base that will help it stay, and then sleep on your back (oh, you probably don’t want to mess up your hair though…)

    I have no problem with all my makeup having come off by the next day though. For all those who can’t live without makeup on shabbos/yom tov, how are you gonna cope when you are married and will have shabbosos/yamim tovim without being able to wear makeup at all?

    #956328
    golfer
    Participant

    Dear younglady,

    This thread is making me extremely uncomfortable. I hope you’re just here for entertainment or out of boredom. This is absolutely not the place to get instructions or practical advice on what you may or may not do on Shabbos. The Mods, as another poster already mentioned, are supposed to inform you of this, but they have their own mysterious reasons for letting some posts go right over their heads, and removing others.

    Aside from the obvious danger of getting advice on Halacha from people who may be completely uninformed or misinformed, you have the additional problem of the CR being inaccurate as far as plain English goes. Says Me, please ask the mods to let you correct your post. I’m pretty sure there’s a “can” in there where you meant to write “cannot.”

    Younglady, all young ladies, and even older ones, should do their best to look their best on Shabbos. But keep in mind that putting on makeup incorrectly on Shabbos is literally playing with fire. Please find a real human being that you know, trust, and can speak to out in the real world, to get your advice.

    #956329
    haifagirl
    Participant

    I feel very fortunate. Hashem made me beautiful just the way I am. I never wear makeup. (And if those of you who know me disagree, you can keep your thoughts to yourself) 🙂

    #956330
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    You can use a sharpie as eyeliner and it stays on all shabbos. That is what my husband does.

    #956331

    notasheep: thsts who they officially created it for.

    #956332
    oomis
    Participant

    Not everyone is naturally beautiful. Not every bas Yisroel is a pretty girl with perfect skin, and perfectly blushed cheeks. Instead of saying assur, assur, assur, one is wiser to ask their Rov a shailah about how something might possibly turn out to be muttar. According to the rabbanim who mattir certain types of powdered makeup, their instructions are to use pulverized powdered lip color, applied with a totally dry brush used for that one color only, and specifically set aside for Shabbos. A clean, new brush may be used for the eye powder, face powder (like Bare Minerals, though there are “kosher” companies that make a line of makeup for Shabbos), eye “liner,” and so on. You should definitely ask a Rov and not the people here in the CR. What I told you was straight from the pamphlet with the appropriate p’sak of how to apply Shabbos makeup.

    For those of you who don’t hold by even such heterim (and do not disparage the rabbanim who paskened the heterim), by all means do not wear makeup on Shabbos. Also do not eat cholent on Shabbos, as there are Yidden who believed that hot food on Shabbos was also assur, and were not interested in understanding the heterim for how to set up a cholent pot k’halacha.

    #956333
    yaakov doe
    Participant

    Halfagirl – You’re the kind of girl I admire. Maybe you should lecture at womans groups and at Bais Yaakovs. Too much emphasis on superficiality in our community.

    #956334
    nitpicker
    Participant

    in reply to oomis

    indeed one who wants to do anything, should certainly keep asking until one finds someone who permits it. better yet just ask the cr. someone will give a heter.

    everytime I think the cr has gotten to its lowest point, I am surprised again.

    #956335
    Sam2
    Participant

    Nitpicker: And anyone who wants to Assur anything can keep asking until you find someone who forbids it. Neither one of those is the way of Halachah.

    #956336
    notasheep
    Member

    certain things will always be assur but our society is constantly trying to look for ‘ways out’. I agree with other posters that the mods should put a stop to this thread. this is not the place for it

    #956337
    nitpicker
    Participant

    to sam2

    you missed my point.

    indeed, neither one of those is the way of halacha.

    one can look for truth or look for a result.

    either way this is not the place for it. it is expressly against the stated (but not always practiced) rules of the cr as it should be. great harm is done by threads like this.

    #956338
    Sam2
    Participant

    nitpicker: I sort of hear that. But I always assume that people in the cr are looking for discussion, not P’sak. Just like you wouldn’t Pasken based on a conversation with your Chavrusa in the Beis Medrash, so too no one Paskens here, but the discussion is the same type of discussion.

    #956339
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Oomis, your comparison of those who are machmir on Shabbos make up to the tzedukim is offensive.

    As to the halacha, R’ Moshe zt”l was practically a daas yochid, most poskim forbade “Shabbos” make up in any form (a well known rov, for reasons I will explain, calls it “chillul Shabbos make up”). Regarding his heter and it’s applicability, he showed R’ Blumenkrantz zt”l how to check if the make up was sufficiently dry to be muttar; there is nobody alive today AFAIK who had shimush from R’ Moshe on how to test.

    The heter is based upon there being no oils whatsoever to aid in the make up holding fast to the skin. It is obviously in the manufacturer’s best interest to have the make up stay on for some period of time, otherwise it’s an almost useless product.

    Additionally, if there are any remnants of make up on the woman’s face from a prior application, it will be assur even if it were made according to R’ Moshe’s standards, even according to R’ Moshe; improving an existing color is also assur because of tzovaya, and the “Shabbos” make up will most definitely stick to the old make up in a manner which is certainly forbidden.

    Furthermore, the heter as formulated by R’ Blumenkrantz with R’ Moshe’s psak, was only issued because there were people who were putting on regular make up on Shabbos. It was never intended for use by anyone who would otherwise refrain from putting on make up, and nobody in R’ Blumenkrantz’ family ever used it.

    #956340
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Article from the OK (Mods please allow). They refused certification.

    http://www.kosherspirit.com/Article.asp?Issue=17&Article=219

    #956341
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I need to point out that Oomis’ comparison to tzedukim was likely unintentional, and any offense certainly was. She never tries to offend anyone.

    #956343
    oomis
    Participant

    indeed one who wants to do anything, should certainly keep asking until one finds someone who permits it. better yet just ask the cr. someone will give a heter.

    everytime I think the cr has gotten to its lowest point, I am surprised again. “

    Nitpicker – One who wants to do something and asks her rov a shailah and gets a p’sak which she does not like,as often happens when we ask shailahs, is NOT allowed to keep asking until she finds a rov to give her a heter. I am frankly surprised you made such a comment. I am certain you know the halacha in this regard.

    If you read my post properly, you saw I specified to ask a rov and not those of us in the CR. And if this is what you consider a low point, B”H and halevai that this WERE the biggest problem facing klal Yisroel today, especially when there is a heter.

    DY – I certainly did not intend an offensive comparison, and thank you for recognizing that. The main thrust of my post was that one has a Rov for a reason, and it is not a BAD thing to find a legitimate (L E G I T I M A T E) heter for how to do something that might otherwise be thought to be assur. We have Kosher Clocks and Lamps for Shabbos. I am sure there are people who don’t use them, either. But if one MAY use such devices and there are respected rabbonim whose opinion it is that dry powdered makeup applied over clean skin is permissible, then that is the end of it. R’ Dovid Weinbergera very well-respected Rov, also permits the Shabbos makeup, as I understand it, and I believe gives his own stamp of approval to a specific line of Shabbos cosmetics, unless I am greatly mistaken. (Please correct me if I attribute this to the wrong person).

    To say someone permits something because so many people do it anyway, bothers me a great deal, if intrinsically it is something that is assur to do. Would we argue that it’s ok to text message on Shabbos, because so many otherwise shomer-Shabbos teens are doing so anyway and find a heter for it (which I cannot envision)? This is actually a very big problem in many communities in recent times. If the makeup were really an issur from every standpoint, with no mitigating factors to mattir it, it would not be muttar.

    #956344
    nitpicker
    Participant

    sam2 wrote:

    “nitpicker: I sort of hear that. But I always assume that people in the cr are looking for discussion, not P’sak. Just like you wouldn’t Pasken based on a conversation with your Chavrusa in the Beis Medrash, so too no one Paskens here, but the discussion is the same type of discussion.

    that is plainly ridiculous and circular reasoning. with that logic, there need not be any rule like that all, for one can assume that no one would ask halacha l’maasa here or answer.

    Nonsense that is exacly what is happening here all the time.

    And even if OP or posters didn’t meant that, lurkers will clearly take it that way for sure.

    it is also not the “same type of discussion” because

    YOU ARE NOT IN THE BAIS MEDRASH TALKING WITH YOUR CHAVRUSA!


    to daas yochid

    I am shocked! I believe it is the other way around. Not rav Moshe was a daas yochid in this matter but rav blumenkrantz was the daas yochid in interpreting what rav moshe wrote. That is why poskim call it chillul Shabbos, not because they disagree with rav moshe.

    I didn’t want to mention individuals by name but since you did, I had no choice but to follow up. another bad thing about the CR.

    I know am on shaky ground here because someone may know more than is in the original tshuva, but until demonstrated otherwise this is how I think it is.

    It is also strange to say that Rav Blumenkrantz did not mean for everyone,

    where is the evidence of that?

    and now I am done with this thread.

    #956345
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I believe it is the other way around. Not rav Moshe was a daas yochid in this matter but rav blumenkrantz was the daas yochid in interpreting what rav moshe wrote.

    How do you interpret R’ Moshe’s psak to not allow colored powder?

    It is also strange to say that Rav Blumenkrantz did not mean for everyone,

    where is the evidence of that?

    I can’t prove it to you; all I can say is, speak to the family, as I have. I wasn’t told to keep this a secret.

    #956346
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If the makeup were really an issur from every standpoint, with no mitigating factors to mattir it, it would not be muttar.

    That is correct. R’ Blumenkrantz obviously felt that there was a legitimate tzad heter, but it doesn’t mean that everyone should use it, and I heard directly from a family member that he only got involved in the production of this make up because there were people who would otherwise put on make up with no tzad heter.

    Halachah is not always black and white, and any yarei shamayim should have standards somewhat above the absolute minimum, each one l’fi madreigaso.

    #956347
    golfer
    Participant

    I see we have managed, in classic CR fashion, to misinterpret, misconstrue, quote a few Gedolim & Rabbonim, and muddy the waters a bit further. I won’t nitpick over the fact that my post was disregarded and ignored. I do want to request that if SaysMe is not inclined to reread her (his?) post and change the “can” to a “cannot,” would some other poster (I see the Mods are out to lunch on this one) take a look at it and correct the misinformation?

    Thanks!

    #956348
    just my hapence
    Participant

    Hello to Jason Isaacs!

    #956349
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Torah613, I know you’re not allowed to put makeup on on Shabbos, but I don’t know why. Something to do with smearing. 🙂

    Also something to do with tzoveya (coloring) which applies even to types of make up of loose or powdery consistency.

    #956350
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Thanks DY.

    #956351
    younglady
    Member

    golfer: I started this thread for my friend, who needed info for an upcoming simcha in her family. (I hardly ever wear makeup)

    I posted specifically looking for answers that have reasons and logic behind it, so I know whether or not the info is trustworthy. Of course I won’t do anything if its questionable or not clear before asking a rav.

    (It’s kinda weird asking a rabbi makeup questions, as they are clueless when it comes to this.)

    Thanks gavra_at_work and mods for the link

    pbo:lol!!!!!

    #956352
    SaysMe
    Member

    golfer- thank you, yes thats a bad error. MODS can you please change that to ”canNOT use cotton balls”? And golfer, i was so inclined to reread my post, but I had to first come on to the CR, which i am not on all day or even every day.

    Haifagirl and notasheep- boruch Hashem you have clear skin and a face you are comfortable with bare. Not everyone is as lucky, and some people have scars, discoloration, mild to severe acne, etc, that makes them feel insecure or just ugly to go out with bare. I’ve known girls who don’t go out shabbos day because of their appearance when they can’t hide it.

    #956353
    SaysMe
    Member

    thank you, mod!

    #956354
    golfer
    Participant

    Hi younglady! Understood.

    But just thought I’d let you know (since I am no longer a young lady, and have most likely been asking rabbis questions for years and years more than you) rabbis are SO NOT clueless! About anything. You wouldn’t believe the things they know all about, makeup included. And when they’re not sure what you’re asking about they’ll be so interested to ask you all the right questions just so they can help you figure out what to do in a particular circumstance. The one time I stumped a Rabbi (!!!) with a question about an obscure, old-fashioned kitchen appliance that came with my very first apartment, he kindly directed me to a certain Rabbi (made sure I got all the contact info) who knew exactly what to do.

    Mazel Tov to all on the upcoming Simcha!

    #956355
    younglady
    Member

    Golfer: Thanks, do you know of any rav that can be reached by email that is familiar with this issue?

    #956356
    oomis
    Participant

    Halachah is not always black and white, and any yarei shamayim should have standards somewhat above the absolute minimum, each one l’fi madreigaso. “

    We surely agree in that! But also keep in mind that the MINIMUM Halacha IS the Halacha. If it were not, then the person would be oveir the Halacha.

    If Hashem were displeased with our following only the minimum, wouldn’t ir make sense to say that He have raised the bar Himself l’chatchilah, so that the minimum was much more stringent? I may hold a certain way in a specific area of Halacha that is more personally machmir than another person, but if that person is following Ratzon Hashem, even if it is more lenient than what I do, he is likewise a frum Yid. In any case, I agree that people should always seek to elevate their avodas Hashem, as long as they do not disparage those whose avoda is at a different hashkafic level.

    #956359
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    But also keep in mind that the MINIMUM Halacha IS the Halacha.

    That’s not untrue, but it’s oversimplified. There are cases, for example, where something is muttar b’sh’as had’chak. Off the top of my head, I’ll use an example of of ravening before sunrise. For someone who needs to travel, it’s allowed. Why? Because it’s at or above the minimum. However, it’s forbidden to do so to play golf. Why? If it’s the halachah, it’s the Gordon Hashem! The answer, of course, is that it’s only permitted to follow the minimum in a sha’as had’chak. I feel the same way, based on my research (this is all NOT merely off the top of my head) about Shabbos make-up.

    And, I don’t know that ant make-up was ever manufactured according to R’ Moshe’s psak, and I’m even more doubtful today.

    #956361
    golfer
    Participant

    Sorry, now you stumped me!

    #956362
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    *ant make-up should read any make-up.

    #956363
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: That was *not* the most egregious typo in your post. Auto-correct does funny things sometimes…

    #956364
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Do I get a do-over?

    But also keep in mind that the MINIMUM Halacha IS the Halacha.

    That’s not untrue, but it’s oversimplified. There are cases, for example, where something is muttar b’sh’as had’chak. Off the top of my head, I’ll use an example of davening before sunrise. For someone who needs to travel, it’s allowed. Why? Because it’s at or above the minimum. However, it’s forbidden to do so to play golf. Why? If it’s the halachah, it’s the rotzon Hashem! The answer, of course, is that it’s only permitted to follow the minimum in a sha’as had’chak. I feel the same way, based on my research (this is all NOT merely off the top of my head) about Shabbos make-up.

    And, I don’t know that any make-up was ever manufactured according to R’ Moshe’s psak; I’m even more doubtful today.

    #956365
    notasheep
    Member

    Says Me – do you know what my skin is like? You are assuming that the reason I am comfortable with my makeup coming off by shabbos morning is cause I have clear skin. That may be the case (as far as I am concerned you had no way of knowing that though), however my skin colouring and complexion mean I look like I am ill if I don’t wear makeup (since I have extremely pale skin and very pink cheeks – not a good combination for someone who is dark haired!)

    I am not putting down those who have scarring or bad acne, but the reason those girls won’t go out on shabbos is not because of their skin, it’s because of their self-image and self-esteem. Not everyone with facial issues feels the need to stay indoors when they can’t put makeup on.

    #956366
    oomis
    Participant

    And, I don’t know that any make-up was ever manufactured according to R’ Moshe’s psak; I’m even more doubtful today.”

    So check into it further. You may be pleasantly surprised at what you find out.

    I don’t think shaas had’chak is minimal Halacha. It is Halacha for a rare emergency occurrence, isn’t it. You may eat meat under one type of hashgocha. perhaps I eat meat under another one. If you were to eat the same meat as I, because there was nothing else available, you might feel that is shaas had’chak. But if that meat is meeting (pun intended) the minimal proper standards of kashrus, you may not want it for yourself, but it certainly is no shaas had’chak for me. For me that might mean eating NON-glatt meat that I knew to be kosher (though I would just eat whole fruit or vegetables, probably, in that case). It’s a semantic issue in many ways.

    #956367
    oomis
    Participant

    And, I don’t know that any make-up was ever manufactured according to R’ Moshe’s psak; I’m even more doubtful today.”

    So check into it further. You may be pleasantly surprised at what you find out.

    I don’t think shaas had’chak is minimal Halacha. It is Halacha for a rare emergency occurrence, isn’t it, when one has no other choice?

    You may eat meat under one type of very machmir hashgocha. Perhaps I eat meat under another one, more mainstream. If you were to eat the same meat as I, because there was nothing else available, you might feel that is shaas had’chak. But if that meat is meeting (pun intended) the minimal proper standards of kashrus, you may not want it for yourself, but it certainly is no shaas had’chak for most people. For me Sh”H might mean eating NON-glatt meat that I knew to be kosher because I had no food and needed protein and that was all that was available or would be available (though I would just eat whole fruit or vegetables, probably, in that case). It’s a semantic issue in many ways. Allowing a permissible form of makeup is not equivalent to eating what someone else might consider as non-kosher. I do understand your point, however.

    #956369
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Allowing a permissible form of makeup is not equivalent to eating what someone else might consider as non-kosher.

    I would rephrase the first part: “Allowing a highly questionable form of make-up…”, in which case you might end the sentence differently.

    I’m curious; how long does the stuff last on the skin? R’ Moshe’s heter (which other major poskim disagreed with) was based on the fact that it doesn’t stick to the skin, so I don’t understand why anyone would even bother using it.

    #956370
    nitpicker
    Participant

    (just a restatement of what I said before)

    daasyochid

    so you maintain that other poskim agree with rav blumenkrantz that rav moshe would have permitted this makeup, but they themselves disagree with this heter of rav Moshe’s.

    while I maintain that other poskim disagree with rav blumenkrantz in inferring such a heter in rav moshe’s tshuva.

    perhaps I am wrong but I have seen nothing to make me change this opinion.

    but wait, you also said that no makeup conforms to “rav Moshe’s heter” which would mean you yourself disagree with rav blumenkrantz! I can’t figure out what you hold at all.

    and now having just restated what I said earlier (well a little more) there is not much point in my commenting further.

    #956371
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Nitpicker, both might be true. There’s definitely a teshuvah from R’ Moshe that’s mattir something. R’ Shlomo Zalman and others argued on that teshuvah.

    I heard that R’ Blumenkrantz sat with R’ Moshe and tested make-up. It’s very possible that everyone argued with R’ Blumenkrantz about how he understood R’ Moshe’s position. As I said, I can’t figure out how a product fitting the description in the teshuvah would be marketable.

    I’m adding that even if one would accept R’ Blumenkrantz’ understanding, he is no longer alive and there is no product currently sold with his or the family’s approval. Also, the very source (reliable to me) that told me that R’ Blumenkrantz sat with R’ Moshe testing formulas also told me that R’ Blumenkrantz was only mattir because people were putting on regular make-up anyway, and that he did not want the families of b’nei Torah using it.

    #956372
    nitpicker
    Participant

    which ‘both’ do you mean?

    both of the following cannot be true unless…. (sentence finished later)

    1) rav blumenkrantz was of the opinion that rav moshe would have permitted the makeup. other poskim disgree with this inference of rav blumenkrantz. they believe that rav moshe would not have perimitted it.

    2) the other poskim agree with rav blumenkrantz’s conclusion about rav moshe but they themselves disagree with rav moshe in this matter. they themselves forbid the makeup.

    these are mutually exclusive

    …. unless we are talking about a different set of poskim.

    I maintain that important poskim who fobid it take position 1.

    that is based on the vehemence of their objection. )

    however, throughout you keep referring to “rav moshe’s heter” and also say that rav moshe was a daas yochid in this matter. thus agreeng that rav moshe (and almost only rav moshe) would have permitted it. You also say that no makeup complies with “rav moshes heter” thus disagreeing with rav blumenkrantz. these are not compatible.

    Good night.

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