October 6, 2010 10:56 am at 10:56 am #592540MiriamMember
Eretz Yisrael is the homeland of the Jewish people. Why do so many people have a problem COMING HOME?October 6, 2010 1:38 pm at 1:38 pm #787873
We made aliya almost 15 years ago. We are very happy that we made the move; we feel that every moment has much more meaning and religious significance, even the mundane things. We had many bumps along the way but have never regretted the move.
But based on the flack we got from others before and after the move, as well as circumstances that I have seen among olim after the aliya, here are several reasons why I think people are afraid to make the move:
1. Fear of the unknown – you are walking into a big unknown – even if it will be better, the fact that it is unfamiliar is a big drawback to people who like everything to be predictable.
2. Unwillingness to leave behind family members – parents and grandparents, siblings, extended family
3. Temporary loss of status- whether at work, in your shul or community, etc., until you make your contribution to some aspect of society in Eretz Yisrael, you are an unknown person and some people find it hard to give up their familiar status, position, contributions to the klal (I don’t mean financial contributions)
4. One of the spouses doesn’t want to go or is only lukewarm to the idea.
5. Fear of uprooting shalom bayis – the stress of the new situation and not being within the familiar support system can certainly wreak havoc.
6. Worries about the effects of the move on kids, particularly pre-teenage and teenage kids – worries about kids going OTD, adjusting to schools, different frumkeit standards, language, culture, etc.
7. Anticipation of a lower living standard
8. Fears about the security situation, including having to serve in the army
9. Unease regarding making the transition from American yeshivish to Israeli chareidi (more stringencies in tznius and leisure activities, for example)or anticipating being regarded as second-class if you don’t make the transition 100%
10. Specific concerns that make the move more difficult – such as learning disabilities or physical health problems that will require new health care practitioners, etc. or that may not be as well cared for here.
11. Immaturity in leaving family and familiarity behind
12. Concentrating on only the uncertainties and possible adjustment problems instead of all the great ruchniyus development and wonderful things that await you.
13. Lack of awareness of the special merits of Eretz Yisrael and of the great zechus it is to live here. Lack of applying what we daven and learn (such as “Eretz Chemda Tova U’rechava” in bentching; the fact that either it is one of the 613 mitzvos or if it isn’t it’s because it’s so obvious that it doesn’t need to be listed; the fact that Hashem watches over Eretz Yisrael more than Chutz La’aretz; the fact that the mitzvos are kept in Chutz La’aretz only so that we don’t forget how to observe them when the golus ends and we come back here, where their observance has “weight”; that one who lives outside Eretz Yisrael is like an idolator)
14. Forgetting history – being in exile is meant to be a punishment; the Jews’ stay in many countries ended violently (Spain, Europe); and ultimately we are meant to return to Eretz YIsrael anyway.
I think those are enough points to generate a lot of responses (and more flack).October 6, 2010 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #787874
I often wonder this myself. How will people justify themselves, after 120 years, to HKB”H? What will they say when he asks why they didn’t take advantage of the most precious gift – E”Y?October 6, 2010 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #787876
It is a good question.
When I believe my and my family’s yiddishkeit will not suffer tremendously due to moving to EY, I hope I will do so.
At this point (we do revisit the question often), for reasons that can not be discussed on an open forum, EY is not an option.
Bezras Hashem, Moshiach should come soon, and we will all know the truth, and then we will all be welcome.
Might I recommend the novel “Into the Whirlwind” by Tzippora Price, which deals with some of the issues involved.October 6, 2010 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #787877
“When I believe my and my family’s yiddishkeit will not suffer tremendously due to moving to EY, I hope I will do so.”
Suffer? By living a mitzva?
Suffer how? There’s no question that mitzvot count fully here; you can’t say the same about living in chu”l. It’s no different than anything else – things you work at don’t suffer.October 6, 2010 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #787878
Suffer? By living a mitzva?
If only it was that simple.October 6, 2010 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #787879NoNonsenseParticipant
I think one of the main reasons that charedim
(it may be different in mizrachi circles?) are hesitant to make Aliyah and raise a family in E”Y is due to the chinuch system in place in E”Y. It is very rigid and if you don’t fit in 100% you are doomed. It doesn’t allow for much (if any) outlets for young boys, and for many that is more than they can handle.
I have heard many well respected mechanchim warn of the following:
– Making Aliyah with children over the age of 9 can be very problematic.
– Making Aliyah with teenagers is almost a sure recipe for failure.
Again, each situation is different, and we shouldn’d be judging others for taking or not taking this tremendous step. Ofcourse anyone zoche to live in E”Y is truly lucky and commendable, but the current metziyas there is certainly not for everyone. In the meantime, those who currently live in E”Y and those who remain in Chutz Laaretz, all should continue to daven for the geulah shelaimah, because until Moshiach comes, we are ALL still in golus!October 6, 2010 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #787880
Mamash – Hmmm, I didnt realize that that was one of the questions Hash-m asks….
Someone – “Immaturity in leaving family and familiarity behind.”
I would not call that Immaturity. I’d call that valid.
I think its great to live on a hope and a prayer but bottom line is you need to do your hishtadlus (aka Job) and there is a severe lack of those in Israel. I’d say that is the primary reason.October 6, 2010 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #787881
“Making Aliyah with children over the age of 9 can be very problematic.
– Making Aliyah with teenagers is almost a sure recipe for failure.”
B”H one thousand times, we disproved both of these.October 6, 2010 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #787882SRPsychMember
Moving to Israel with teenagers is not recommended – unless the teenagers themselves are gung-ho and ready to go! One way to improve the chances of success is to visit as many times as possible before Aliya. Having both spouses on the same page is highly recommended as well!
The financial issue is huge – especially if you move to an area where there are people who are very well-off and there is pressure to “keep up with the Schvartz’s” (yes, that phenomenon exists in Israel too – less than in chu”l, but still there). People have had to be very creative in finding ways of making a living. On the other hand, if you’ve always wanted to start your own business, make your hobby into your job, etc… that’s what many do when they get to Israel.
I think Someone Who Cares’ reasons are ALL valid (tho I am not sure everyone who is reluctant t leave family/friends can be called immature!). On top of those I would add that one very good reason NOT to come to Israel is because it will magically make your life all better. Whatever issues you bring with you to Israel will remain with you, and be compounded by the normal Aliya issues. So do yourself a favor and sort out your marriage/troubled kids/financial problems (as much as possible)/in-law troubles/character disorders/halitosis and whathaveyou… BEFORE you get to the Holy Land. ‘Cuz, frankly, Israel has enough of those without you!October 6, 2010 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #787883
SRP – LOL! Halitosis! Definitely, because hygiene is just above and beyond in Israel.October 7, 2010 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #787885MiriamMember
I posted the original thread……Someone who cares posted a great answer.
My family made aliyah 16 years ago with almost no money and it was the best decision we ever made. Our only regret is that we didn’t do it years earlier. Our older daughters came to Israel several years earlier, as students to attend a one year seminary program , fell in love with the country and made aliyah as students. BTW. They married Israelis……..
Was life difficult as new Olim? The answer is yes but we decided to go with the flow and just follow our hearts. We knew that Hashem was watching over us.
We came with a 12 year old boy who only wanted to live in Israel and have his Bar Mitzvah at the Kotel. The school that he was going to attend had an excellent suggestion for us and I am so happy that we took their advice.
They suggested that instead of him going into the grade he was supposed to..he repeat the grade he just finished so that he could be taken out of class several times a week to work on his Hebrew.
In 3 months my son was speaking and reading as a born Israeli. What a difference this made for him.
My husband and I both took the first job we were offered and kept looking for something better.
My advice to potential olim is to have a positive attitude and tons of patients.
Hashem gave us this land to populate. If we don’t populate it, we will loose it. COME HOME!October 7, 2010 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #787886
“Hashem gave us this land to populate”
And He also sent us into exhile.
IY”H Moshiach will come soon and we will all come home forever.October 7, 2010 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #787887SRPsychMember
Saftala – Don’t mine the media; keep the big picture in mind. We will NEVER lose it – that’s a thousands year old promise.
but Sacrilige – Israel without Moshiach is still exile. it’s just a more exalted form of exile, because you are closer to the sources of everything we believe in as Jews. And because the Siyata Dishmaya is so much more apparent in EY, it is easier to integrate all of the lessons in Emunah you’ve always learned, and really LIVE them…October 7, 2010 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #787888rebdonielMember
[to see] if it is appropriate for him to move to Israel, since the impact of the Yeitzer HaRa (evil inclination) in the Holy Land, whose holiness is exceedingly great, is great and very seductive. Therefore, if one has a great desire to move to Israel because his religious life outside of Israel is inadequate, it is advisable to first visit Israel and ascertain where he will live, where his sons and daughters will study, and how he will earn a livelihood, and only then he should make Aliyah, and he will be successful in his service of Hashem in His holy palace.” (Teshuvos Vehanhagos 1:900).
These mekoros make it evident that there is a machlokes as to whether there is a mitzvah to make aliyah bezmaneinu.October 7, 2010 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #787889
I want to make a few more points.
Sacrilege – you don’t think that the unwillingness to leave family/friends is a reflection of immaturity. Perhaps I labeled it too quickly but I think it is due to either immaturity or inflexibility/being set in one’s ways and afraid of change. The Torah tells us that a man has to leave his father and mother when he gets married and cling to his wife. Some people are afraid to move further than around the corner from their parents. Part of the maturity that is necessary to get married means leaving one’s parents, as terrible as that sounds. I don’t mean to abandon them. I have many friends who made aliya and whose parents eventually followed them. I don’t mean to leave behind a sick, elderly dying parent, but if a couple makes aliya when their parents are still in good health, they can certainly join their children there. My mother-in-law came in her late 60s; I know people who came in their 80s and even 90s. On the other hand, I think that some people don’t want to leave their parents, relatives, friends, etc. because they are simply too set in their ways – almost like over the hill, “overmature” rather than immature. Familiarity is too comfortable for them. Even if their situations aren’t so comfortable, the familiar known is less threatening than the unknown.
Another important point to think about – since I’m female and don’t learn Gemara I can’t quote you Masechta and daf, but there is a famous Gemara that says that three things are acquired only through yisurim – Torah, Eretz Yisrael and Olam Haba (I don’t know if they are listed in this order). Everyone always quotes this gemara as an excuse not to move to Eretz Yisrael because it is acquired through yisurim. Well, let me ask you all to think about this honestly – don’t we try our best to observe/learn Torah and to do mitzvos to acquire Olam Haba, even though the Gemara says they are acquired through yisurim? Why are we only afraid of the yisurim of Eretz Yisrael and not the yisurim involved in acquiring Torah and Olam Haba? Why do we seem to view Torah and Olam Haba as obligatory, despite the yisurim, and Eretz Yisrael as optional?October 8, 2010 12:02 am at 12:02 am #787890
“The Torah tells us that a man has to leave his father and mother when he gets married and cling to his wife”
1. This does not mean in a country 3,000 miles a way.
2. You are still Muchuyav in Kibbud Av V’em. If you think that can be accomplished with a phone call once a week and a birthday card, thats a whole diff issue.
“Why do we seem to view Torah and Olam Haba as obligatory, despite the yisurim, and Eretz Yisrael as optional”
Eretz Yisroel isn’t optional it was promised to us by Bris Bain Habisorim. Our forefathers have suffered a heck of a lot for E”Y. Do I think we should be sacraficing our young innocent children at the altar known as Israel? NO 1,000X!
Before the Zionists caused the massive flow of Jews to Israel there were hardly any Jews living there (ironically, my grandfather x10 generations were there). I forget which Gaon said, “Ki M’Bari Tetzi Torah U’Dvar Hashem M’Utranto” Do you think they weren’t aware of Kedushas E”Y? Is this suddenly a new thing? No! It’s the Zionistic movement E”Y isnt even a Frum state, it is as peverse as it is Kadosh (which is the most unfortunate thing of all).October 8, 2010 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #787891emoticon613Member
i’m sorry, really sorry to say this, but i have too many friends whose families moved them to eY when they were teenagers, and their yiddishkeit REALY REALY suffered. so mamashtaka, yes, suffering by living a mitzva.
and if you come to eY with a teenager who’s oolai, already unstable, once s/he discovers ben yehuda/crack square – that’s it for her/him. i’m so serious. and that can also happen to one who wasn’t already unstable, but became so as a result of the move.
i also have friends who came here and it was the best thing for all involved.
i would say that this is a highly personalized issue and should be discussed by anyone considering it, with his rav muvhak, or someone who is suggested to him by his rav muvhak.October 8, 2010 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm #787892
since I’m female and don’t learn Gemara I can’t quote you Masechta and daf, but there is a famous Gemara that says that three things are acquired only through yisurim – Torah, Eretz Yisrael and Olam Haba
It is gemorah Brachos 5a (I quoted it two weeks ago regarding Torah):
???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?”? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???October 8, 2010 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #787893SJSinNYCMember
I think the bigger problem with teenagers is that in Israel, Charedi society is much more black and white. Either you do it their way, or you are out.
I know of American Yeshivish families that just couldn’t find a proper place in Israel. They were to yeshivish for Chardal, too modern for Charedi society etc.
Rules are much more rigid and have zero flexibility. I think most American Jews aren’t used to that. Teenagers especially.October 9, 2010 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #787894
A few more points
Sacrilege – I’m sorry to keep rebutting your points; it’s nothing personal or perhaps it’s because you make good points that press all my sensitive buttons. Yes, it IS very difficult to keep proper kibud av v’em from far away. Regarding your point about making kids suffer, people had asked “What are we doing TO our kids” whereas we felt we are doing this FOR our kids. Yes there were hardships in many senses – financial, religious, educational, and the results have been mixed – but we don’t know what the results would have been had we stayed in the US – we left just before the OTD phenomenon really took off in the US. The move in general and the specific difficulties in general do present a challenge for kids who move here. In the end, some of our kids definitely turned out stronger in frumkeit and educationally than they would have been in the US. Some came here at too early an age to know how they would have been had we stayed there. But I think that part of the problem is that if parents come here with an attitude of expecting suffering instead of stressing the zechus of being here and all the positive things, that definitely gets picked up by the kids. We did not come with a Zionist perspective but to be honest I somewhat envied other people who came here with that perspective, because it was easier for them to fit in – they didn’t have to change to fit into society the way the American yeshivish people have to change to fit into Israeli Chareidi society. Also, because the chareidi schools are very anti the general society, the kids who come from the US and enter the schools wonder, “If it’s so bad, why did my family bring me here?” Which is a valid question on their part. It is a challenge to help them see the positive parts of Eretz Yisrael even though it is not yet in its perfected state (I don’t mean State but state as in condition)when Moshiach will come.
Gavra – thanks for bringing the direct quote
SJS – you hit the nail on the head with your description of us not exactly fitting in. I think part of the problem is that in the U.S., especially out of town, the schools are more heterogeneous so there will always be some people a little more to the right and some a little more to the left but overall everyone more or less fits in and is comfortable with themselves in the broader group and with the other people in the group. But davka the large number of schools to choose from (if they will accept you) makes each group more narrow and therefore it is hard to fit in 100% in any particular school; the best choice might be about 20% off of where you are holding and that 20% can make you stick out like a sore thumb.
Saftala- I think if we would know each other we would be good friends. Getting back to answer your original question, I’d like to give a more philosophical answer. When we first raised the question of moving to Eretz Yisrael with our Rav in the U.S., he mentioned the concept of some people being Bnei Eretz Yisrael and some are Bnei Chutz La’aretz. He explained that some people’s neshamos have a need to be in Eretz Yisrael or else they do not feel spiritual fulfillment. Others find their spiritual fulfillment in Chutz Laaretz because their neshamos are Bnei Chutz Laaretz. I have often wondered, do I deserve special credit for wanting to come and being determined enough to make it work despite all the challenges, or is it total help from Hashem. Am I better than others because I wanted to come, or not. I have many friends who I would describe as much frummer than me and yet they are not here and do not have a strong desire theoretically or practically to be here. I think that our Rav’s explanation helps explain why I am here and others are not and can help me understand others without feeling superior to them. I think that because I have a neshama that is connected to Eretz Yisrael, Hashem put the will into my mind and heart, and the determination and willingness to come here and endure all the challenges and actually love it. I am not claiming credit for this, but I am grateful that Hashem has put me into this category. I think, Saftala, that those with this type of neshama want to come here, while those who weren’t given this, do not. It’s very hard for the two types of neshamos to relate to each other, because the chutz la’aretz neshamos think we’re a little crazy, and the Eretz Yisrael neshamos think the chutz la’aretz neshamos are missing some key elements (unless we just accept each other with our different make-up, tafkid, etc.). I guess the bottom line is that we have to analyze ourselves to see what type of neshama we have, what do the other members of our family have (i.e., is Eretz Yisrael compatible with their neshama/emotional make-up),and not be judgmental of people who are of the other type.October 10, 2010 12:11 am at 12:11 am #787895
“Regarding your point about making kids suffer”
Actually, I wasnt making the point about OTD kids, it was about the soldiers. The 18/19 year old kids who are being killed and injured and scarred emotionally by what they see. I just don’t know that it’s all worth it.July 18, 2011 5:22 am at 5:22 am #787896
SAFTALA, deserve a reward for your post, even when people are left living abroad Israel!!!! WAKE UP Israel!!!!July 18, 2011 8:56 am at 8:56 am #787897haifagirlParticipant
I think its great to live on a hope and a prayer but bottom line is you need to do your hishtadlus (aka Job) and there is a severe lack of those in Israel. I’d say that is the primary reason.
When I was looking for my first job, I was getting a daily e-mail with job listings. Lots of them. There is absolutely NO lack of jobs here.
Ah! There may be a lack of jobs if you’re the type who is very picky. But if you’re the type who is willing to do whatever it takes to live here, there are hundreds (thousands?) of jobs from which to choose.July 18, 2011 9:16 am at 9:16 am #787898
Enough tzioinish recruiting here, please.
I know of maybe 2 out of hundreds of Western “oleh” (and you are only an “oleh” if you come from somewhere south of EY like Australia, otherwise you are going south which is “yerida” – “oleh” should be reserved for what it once meant which was people going to Yerushalayim to bring a korban to the Beis haMikdash) who did not lose terribly by going to EY once married and established – and even before. I mean loss of health due to bad medical care or in one case due to a car accident L”A which is very common thanks to the awful drivers in EY, loss of children to the streets, loss of career, loss of investment money and even loss of Yiddishkeit because of disappointment with the great paradise that the memsheles hazadoin made of artzeinu hakdoisha. In the case of one of the two who did not suffer, he did tshuva in EY as well – he was a former member of a kefira movement – so that may be why he did not suffer. The other one is not only wealthy from home, but is laundering money for a family member who declared bankruptcy “Creedmoorishly” after he was hit by a lawsuit for something I can’t even discuss here.
You want to live there? Work your tuches off where you are, retire early (or get yourself to the point you can do everything online – I actually can and I don’t want to live there even though I could go tomorrow), or buy a vacation home there like successful Americans do. Then you have the mitzva without getting swallowed by the medine which is maaseh sitra achra. And even then, make sure you can afford a Volvo if you intend to drive there because it is the only car that might keep you safe on those highways.
Besides, going to EY can be the biggest copout. Anyone can be a Yid in EY (well, this was the case until 500,000 non-Jews came from the FSU as Jews and now intermarriage and shmad are threats in EY as well). Tuition is free or near-free; you can laze around like so many people in EY do in make-work jobs and still manage tuition.
EY is kedusha. The medine is a sick, sick society – and I live in an unstable place myself so I know what a sick society is. That medine belongs in EY like a loaf of bread belongs on a seder plate. If you go when you are older and not working, then you get the mitzvah and you can isolate yourself from the society. If not, then you are taking a huge chance both spiritually and physically, and the results are usually no good.
And the “economic boom” in EY is an illusion that can come crashing down at any moment, so don’t think you will not get there and then – the end – the bust comes and you’ll want to take the next plane back – but you left your job behind back home and there aren’t many to choose from anymore. You can’t pay people $1200 a month after taxes and expect them to pay $2 for a single serving of cottage cheese – it is all a scam to make sure people live on overdraft, in constant thrall to the banks, which at the end of the day control the whole crooked economy in EY.July 18, 2011 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #787899ItcheSrulikMember
gavra: Can I recommend “Out of the Whirlwind” by Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik? While it is primarily a book about hashkafa after the Holocaust, it also deals with some of the issues involved. He also gave a shiur on the specific considerations a ben Torah should weigh when considering aliyah which is printed elsewhere.
I can’t say anything about aliyah, since I haven’t yet but I really want to.July 18, 2011 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #787900
Can I recommend To Dwell in the Palace-Perspectives on Eretz Yisrael?July 18, 2011 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #787901dvorakMember
We wanted to start planning the move for next summer. Then we went to a gadol for a bracha and he said it is not the right time for us. True, unless I name this gadol, you’ll all be skeptical, and some of you will think we are silly for asking and following blindly when said gadol didn’t even give us a reason, just a a statement that now is not the time. But that’s that, for now. We will in the meantime daven that when we ask again next year, it will be the right time, and we will be zocheh to make the move.July 18, 2011 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #787902
Dvorak, I’m curious, is this gadol someone who knows you well, or just stam someone you decided to ask. I personally always ask for a reason behind the answers I receive – I don’t think it’s an unreasonable request.July 18, 2011 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #787903
Can I recommend “Al haGeula veAl haTemurah” by Harav Yoiel “Reb Yoilish” Teitelbaum ZYA of Satmar? Some may feel his basis of the three oaths may be flimsy because of questions as to whether you can base halacha on them, but he was (sadly) roieh es hanoilad.
He knew that koifrim and porkei oyl cannot settle Eretz haKoidesh without desecrating the land. This desecration now endangers every Jew who lives there, both those who support them and those who don’t, as well as Jews abroad, both physically and spiritually.July 18, 2011 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #787904
ItcheSrulik: I have weighed moving to EY (which is somewhat easier for me, due to various circumstances I won’t discuss here). As of this point in time, to my regret, I don’t see raising children in EY. Perhaps when I retire, or when the society there is more accepting (which it is moving oh so slowly). At this point, it is not the best thing for my family.July 18, 2011 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #787905on the ballParticipant
Currently it’s a land of extremes something a lot of people are not geared up to.July 18, 2011 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #787906
If you can stay in the kedusha and interact as little as possible with the busha vecherpa, then go.
The only two ways of doing this are going there after your children are past the age of chinuch and basically working abroad by telecommuting, or waiting until you have retired (UNLESS you are davka going as a marbitz Torah or to help some of the American kids who are in trouble because of “aliya” – then you have siyata deShmaya but even then go before you have any children or before your oldest has even begun cheder in chu”l).
Even then, keep your nose out of politics, don’t demonstrate, not for kvorim and not for Shabbos and not for anything else, and choose products and services from bnai Torah whenever you can.July 18, 2011 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #787907adamsParticipant
I was brought there as a teenager, and I missed several things initially.
Friends, activities, being able to function as a student.
There were others but less relevant now what with the internet.
I stayed from teenage years to late 20’s. Always I was not happy there but that is because of the progression, not doing well in school, not graduation from college, delaying the army, etc. I was not having any luck with Shiduchim either. I wasn’t American enough for the Americans, nor Israeli enough etc. Although I may have suffered from lack of image etc.
However, now that I have been back in America over 25 years, I would like to go back however I would need to ensure the job situation.
I also think, that the society is a very nervous one in many respects. Although you have great people there, there are also not so great. I know because I visit every year.
I would need an income that would allow me to leave for a break every few months, to Europe, probably. I don’t need to come back to America any more.
The life there can be very stressful.
So at this point, to be honest barring a financial miracle, I will wait till I retire.
Also my wife refuses to consider the idea so that will be a problem as well.
The reasons most don’t move I think is that they feel very much at home in the society they are in.July 18, 2011 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #787908charliehallParticipant
” Why do so many people have a problem COMING HOME?”
In our case the answer is simple: I have been told quite definitively that I will never get an academic job in Israel no matter how good I am, because it is a closed system. My wife would easily get a job as a primary care physician, but since the salaries are about one third of those in the United States, she would have to default on her medical school loans which is an issur d’oraita.July 18, 2011 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #787909
Most importantly, get a private expatriate health insurance policy from a worldwide insurer that covers you in EY. For me where I am, AXA/PPP is the best but everyone needs different coverage so check out other offers as well. AXA/PPP covers you in EY so long as you will be there more than 6 months out of the year; it covers you everywhere else you travel as well except the US.
The price is not high, even for a zero deductible policy, compared to US private insurance, and you can then use the best doctors and facilities in EY on a priority basis rather than waiting for routine procedures with Kupat Cholim.
You can also get care in Europe should the need arise (taking US coverage on an expat policy is wildly expensive).July 18, 2011 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #787911ItcheSrulikMember
gavra: The book doesn’t push aliyah, it just mentions some issues to consider. The shiur basically boiled down to “move where you can do the most for klal yisrael.”July 18, 2011 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #787912Moshe KohnMember
600 Kilo Bear:
After reading your megillos, the only conclusion one could draw is that the meraglim could learn a thing or two from you.July 18, 2011 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #787913Derech HaMelechMember
After reading your megillos, the only conclusion one could draw is that the meraglim could learn a thing or two from you.
I don’t know if you were praising him or telling him off. But it sounded funny so I laughed.July 18, 2011 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #787914
Again – enough with this old tzioinish meraglim lie. Hashem did not bring us back to EY this time. Baryoinim seized the land, with permission from an illegitimate world body that then turned on those same baryoinim, and set up a secular polity there. If anything, the tzioinim are grasshoppers compared to the Jews – their whole ideology is falling apart and the new generation could care less where they live. However, there is no clear mitzvas yishuv haaretz and if you are going to get caught up in or contribute to the tuma, you will be swallowed up and/or vomited out.
When I look at the famous “listim atem” Rashi, I can only think of how the world sees a bunch of people who do not believe at all in the validity of the Torah, but have decided they are the heirs to the land Hashem promised us in the Torah.
An Arab terrorist imprisoned in a jail in EY once saw his Jewish guard eating pita on Pesach. He told the guard that he knew the Arabs would win because the Jews act as they do.July 19, 2011 1:44 am at 1:44 am #787915dvorakMember
Mamashtakah- this gadol knows both mine and my husband’s families well (and yes, he knows us too). We see him once a year for a bracha (he comes to our area once a year). I suppose we could have asked for a reason, but we were upset at the time about hearing no and kind of just took it silently.July 19, 2011 2:29 am at 2:29 am #787916Josh31Participant
“with a Big White Furry Coat”
The white is from Tzaraas for speaking so harshly about the Jewish State.
No matter how disconnected one is from Torah, if he lives in Israel he will likely marry a Jewish woman and there is always hope that future generations will return to Torah.July 19, 2011 2:42 am at 2:42 am #787917shlishiMember
No matter how disconnected one is from Torah, if he lives in Israel he will likely marry a Jewish woman and there is always hope that future generations will return to Torah.
A large percentage of the Russian (and other) women living in Israel are shiksas.July 19, 2011 3:38 am at 3:38 am #787918shmoolik 1Participant
remember the meraglim they spoke the truth of E Y but it was how they said it only 2 of them said despite the problems we will go it is a gift from hashem and we must accept it willingly despite the difficulties otherwise we like them will have to wait for another generation to receive it
the sin dibas haaretz and the day is now the three weeks do tshuva and come to Eretz YisroelJuly 19, 2011 4:49 am at 4:49 am #787919
Shlishi is correct. In two to three generations there will be a very big problem with yichus among secular “Israelis”. Hopefully, more and more secular Jews will leave EY before that happens, and join their brothers who have returned to Hashem in the US, UK, France etc.
There is no inyan of chet meraglim when we have no express right to self-rule in EY according to Torah.
EY under the tzioinim is the worst state of golus. It is dovor acher on the mizbeach.July 19, 2011 10:05 am at 10:05 am #787920
Dvorak, I have a friend that same thing happened to you, and it felt worse and drowned, and now since 5 months he is here with his wife and him 4 children,. What I mean by this is that not matter what anyone says, it’s about you and hear your own neshamots, it seems that his Tzadik said exite our’s Neshamots, hence we learn that we have to see how things the Yetzer Hara is within the sometimes deciding for us!July 19, 2011 10:43 am at 10:43 am #787921
I have a great book entitled “The mitzvah of living in Israel,” should read all those who think long to come here or not and those also who see it as something distant or issue types Neshamots, etc, gentlemen. .. We are talking about what commanded us Hashem?
“Go from your land and your birthplace and your father’s house to the land that I will show you,” the mitzvah of living in Eretz Israel is a great mitzvah because it was the first that Hashem instructed to a Jew (Abraham).
So all this makes me ask to all those who are not even here in this wonderful land, who will say after leaving this world to Hashem?
All the excuses may be valid on the ground because the man is blind when he want and also clumsy, but that’s no excuse, because while the man makes the distinction between good and evil, the excuses will fade and when the time comes to be judged , will be cornered and full of lies that could be avoided only here.
It’s time to stop putting the voice behind many buts, buts, buts, and buts and focus on fulfilling the Mitzva!July 19, 2011 12:45 pm at 12:45 pm #787922
<blockqiote>A large percentage of the Russian (and other) women living in Israel are shiksas.
But they are still a minority, by far.
Mr. Bear, not everyone merits the zechus to live in E”Y. Obviously, you don’t. There are many who do. I walk out to shule every morning, knowing I live in a place where many more mitzvot are incumbent upon me because I live in E”Y. I know that my mitzvot count fully, while the mitzvot of those who live in chu”l don’t. I’m sorry you feel the way you do.
You say that HKB”H didn’t give us the land, it was established by chilonim. Yet everything happens for a reason, and I believe that if we are here, it’s Hashem’s will. If it wasn’t, we wouldn’t be here.
Your reasoning reminds me of the old joke about the man in a flood. People try to rescue him with a boat and a helicopter, yet he refuses, saying he’s waiting for God to save him. After he dies and goes for his true judgement, he complains to God that he was waiting for him to save him. God replies, “I sent you a boat and a helicopter. What more do you want?”
E”Y is the same thing. It’s obviously not perfect, but it’s here, despite the Arabs, despite the internal politics and strife.July 21, 2011 12:35 pm at 12:35 pm #787924
Great comment, thanks for sharing mamashtakahJuly 21, 2011 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #787925IUseBrainsParticipant
Please No One say negative bout EY, The Meraglim were punished for It!
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