March 1, 2012 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #602320
So recall my cast iron pan? yes?
Recall that i don’t really wash it? yes? It is filthy.
Recall that i make corn bread in it?
Is that muttar?
If it isn’t, then is my pan now issur also because of chanan?March 1, 2012 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #1142164squeakParticipant
Chanan Bisha?March 1, 2012 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #1142165HaLeiViParticipant
Aw c’mon. The pan??March 1, 2012 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #1142166
which other chanan do we know?
(also, i don’t really mean chanan. I just mean bliyos of issur.)March 1, 2012 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #1142167Ken ZaynMember
is my pan now issur also
I think so though I have no cast iron proofMarch 1, 2012 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #1142168
It’s most probably natlap and therefore the bread the bread and the pan (the pan was never a problem) are both kosher.
If the pan was used within 24 hours though, then if its dirty, it depends.
The bread would have to be unrecognizable as fleishig, meaning that if it has meat all over it or if it’s in a shape that reminds you of meat, then its ok.
Or, if the bread is small and you eat it all right away then you will be fine.
Interestingly, I am learning the sugya right now, so I’m not 100% sure as I haven’t finished it yet, but I think I’m more or less right.March 2, 2012 12:00 am at 12:00 am #1142169dash™Participant
Does the issur of making non-parve pread extend to corn bread?March 2, 2012 12:11 am at 12:11 am #1142170RavHamachshirMember
How much bread did you cook?
Less than a days worth is probably fine(as I recall).
Also, Its probably not really issur. Its just something you cant have around, right?March 2, 2012 12:40 am at 12:40 am #1142171
rav: No, it is assur to eat it.
uneeq: you tell me what it is. I use it for meat and then I don’t clean it very well. It is pretty greasyMarch 2, 2012 4:20 am at 4:20 am #1142172RavHamachshirMember
aren’t you allowed to cut bread you intend to eat with meat with a meat knife. and don’t we assume meat knife has meat on it?March 2, 2012 4:25 am at 4:25 am #1142173
Read siman 97March 2, 2012 5:40 am at 5:40 am #1142174
It only becomes assur if it’s fleishig when baked. You’re allowed to eat a salami sandwich (except for the problem of v’nishmartem m’od l’nafshoseichem…).March 2, 2012 7:08 am at 7:08 am #1142175
popa_bar_abba: uneeq: you tell me what it is. I use it for meat and then I don’t clean it very well. It is pretty greasy
If it’s pretty greasy, then lekatchila its assur to make the bread in the pot, unless you make the bread recognizable as “meaty” before the bread is finished baking. Or you can make the bread small and eat all of it right away.
Even though there most probably 60 parts against the grease, that even if you would eat with dairy there would be no issur of bosser vecholov, almost all poskim consider making such bread-lekatchila assur from the din “ein mevatlin issur lekatchila”, and some consider it even bedieved assur.
However, intent also plays a part. If you have unintentionally spilled grease on the dough, or if you didn’t know of this halacha before you made the bread, some say muttar, some say assur, but that’s where I got up to in Siman 97 so I haven’t finished that topic yet.
Calling out to Hello99, DY, or yitay to finish this one off.March 2, 2012 8:09 am at 8:09 am #1142176
PBA: I would think that doesn’t apply to corn bread.March 2, 2012 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #1142177
Sam: Why not to corn bread? Does it depend on if it is hamotzi? (And didn’t I ask that question in a previous thread?
Uneeq: But the grease is on the pan, not in the batter. So then when I bake it, it will still be touching the grease which will still be in the pan, and will only go in a k’dei netila because it is tzli. So then I would need 60 in the netila, which I don’t have. Because we aren’t bekiin bein kachush l’shamen.March 2, 2012 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1142178
Uneeq: Also, why do you say it would be assur to lechatchila put in less than a shishim of milk into bread?March 2, 2012 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #1142179
PBA: The G’zeira is because Ki Al Halechem Yichyeh Ha’adam. I assume that doesn’t apply to corn bread, but I guess it could. I guess that could bear research.March 2, 2012 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #1142180
Corn bread was the staple bread in the South for probably 150 years, and that is where we get the recipes from. I kind of do consider it a bread.
In the South, they would serve a meal, and the bread was corn bread. The other stuff they ate was lelafef the corn pas.March 3, 2012 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #1142181
popa: Uneeq: But the grease is on the pan, not in the batter. So then when I bake it, it will still be touching the grease which will still be in the pan, and will only go in a k’dei netila because it is tzli. So then I would need 60 in the netila, which I don’t have. Because we aren’t bekiin bein kachush l’shamen.
Uneeq: Also, why do you say it would be assur to lechatchila put in less than a shishim of milk into bread?
Read the top of this page http://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=4&daf=30b&format=pdf
It’s exactly your case, and it says KOL hapas KULA assura. It’s a gezeira derabbonon that when you bake a certain way, they assur’d the whole bread. It seems to me that the gemoros case is talking about even when there’s more than 60.
Even if the gemoro is talking davka under 60, I saw many achronim (I’m not finished looking up though) that assur because of Ein Mevatlin Issur Lekatchila. Because as Sam said, al ha’lechem yichye ha’adam, so when you make the bread it’s assumed that you will eat it any meal, meat or dairy.March 4, 2012 12:41 am at 12:41 am #1142182
uneeq: That gemara is the case discussed by the mechaber in 97, and it is precisely my case. In my case I think it is assur even if there is shishim, because it is not batul in the bread, because it is a “tzli” contact once it is baking, and therefore only goes in a ??? ?????. Therefore, we would need to have shishim against the grease just in the ??? ?????.
However, I assume the gemara is only talking about where there is not ????. The reason is, that in the gemara’s time, they were ?????? ??? ???? ????, and since the grease is shamen, it does go into the whole bread and would be batel b’shishim.
I thought you were saying that it would be assur to even put less than a 60th of milk or meat into the recipe, which would certainly be ??? ?????. I don’t know why you think that. It is not a case of ???? ????? ???????, since there is no issur.
There is a case discussed of where you mix a small amount of milk into water and your intention is to mix it with meat, and that is discussed whether it is bitul issur lechatchila. The rema in 99:6 says that if milk falls into water and is batul b’shishim, you can mix it with meat. The shach 22 says you are allowed to even do it l’chatchila. The pri megadim says that the shach means you can l’chatchila mix the water into the meat once it falls, but you cannot mix the milk into the water with intent to then put it in the meat.
But our case (of mixing less than a 60th of milk into dough) is different, since our intention is not to eat it with the other min. I see no reason to assume that the issur applies to that case.
In fact, I will bring a proof that it does not, since the issur of fleishig and milchig bread only applies where the issur to eat it with the other min would be even b’dieved–as we see from the fact that you are allowed to bake bread in fleishig keilim which are even ben yomo. (I will point out here a kasha. How come we allow that, since the shach seems like he is machmir like the maharshal that nat bat nat is assur b’tzli even b’dieved, in shach 95:4. I wonder if maharshal himself goes so far as to assur to make bread in a milchig or fleishig kli. I don’t have access to an ????? ????? of the Maharshal right now.)March 4, 2012 1:16 am at 1:16 am #1142183
Did you see the PRM”G (M”Z) and Gilyon Maharsh”a?March 4, 2012 1:20 am at 1:20 am #1142184
Which ones?March 4, 2012 1:24 am at 1:24 am #1142185
On 97 about bittul l’chatchilah of milk in bread.March 4, 2012 1:38 am at 1:38 am #1142186
I did now. Shkoyach.March 4, 2012 1:51 am at 1:51 am #1142187
I’m just wondering though; since making a different tzurah is a heter for baking milchig or fleishig bread, if someone only makes fleishig corn bread, never pareve, is there an issur?March 4, 2012 2:06 am at 2:06 am #1142188
I dunno.March 4, 2012 2:25 am at 2:25 am #1142189
I would think it’s okay.March 4, 2012 6:18 am at 6:18 am #1142190
DY: I’m just wondering though; since making a different tzurah is a heter for baking milchig or fleishig bread, if someone only makes fleishig corn bread, never pareve, is there an issur?
It depends whether the rest of his family knows that it’s fleishig.
If they do, then it should be fine.March 4, 2012 6:21 am at 6:21 am #1142191
popa: But our case (of mixing less than a 60th of milk into dough) is different, since our intention is not to eat it with the other min. I see no reason to assume that the issur applies to that case.
With bread, we assume automagically that you will eat it with the other min.
Ki al Halechem yichye Ha’adam.March 4, 2012 6:24 am at 6:24 am #1142192
With bread, we assume automagically that you will eat it with the other min.
Ki al Halechem yichye Ha’adam.
I am aware of that, and I think the source is actually because the gemara says so, not because of that passuk.
It does not obviously follow that it would be assur to mix milk in lechatchila. As DY pointed out, it is discussed by the pri megadim on the taz in 97, and the gilyon maharsha.March 4, 2012 6:26 am at 6:26 am #1142193
I’m just wondering though; since making a different tzurah is a heter for baking milchig or fleishig bread, if someone only makes fleishig corn bread, never pareve, is there an issur?
It depends whether the rest of his family knows that it’s fleishig.
If they do, then it should be fine.
Do you have a source for that? I saw that you can make a siman in the tzura, but I haven’t seen that you can have the whole type of bread be your siman. Like that you only make whole wheat bread fleishig.March 4, 2012 7:43 am at 7:43 am #1142194
PBA: If the corn bread is always made in this Fleishig pan and corn bread is easily distinguishable as corn bread, then being corn bread itself would inherently count as a different Tzurah. (This is entirely Leshitascha. I think that this wouldn’t apply to corn bread or any other bread not from the 5 Minim.)March 4, 2012 1:36 pm at 1:36 pm #1142195
Sam: I haven’t studied what is considered a different tzura and what is not. I have never heard that you can designate a certain variety of bread (like whole wheat, or bread maker bread, or bagels) as milchig or fleishig. I thought it had to be different from all bread.
I listed the recipe I use here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/bracha-on-corn-bread (is it hamotzi?)March 4, 2012 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #1142196
No, I don’t have a source, but I don’t see why one type of unique appearance (color and texture) should be different than another (shape).
PBA is discussing corn bread which has wheat flour in it and is a hamotzi.March 4, 2012 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #1142197
Badei Hashulchan discusses whether the tzura has to be universally unique or it’s sufficient that it be unique to the home in which it was baked (machlokes Chochmas Adam and Chavas Daas).
I think this would apply to our case.March 4, 2012 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #1142198ItcheSrulikMember
PBA: Can you look at it and say “oh. that’s my corn bread”? If so, it looks different than bread.March 4, 2012 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #1142199
PBA: Nevermind. I didn’t realize it was Hamotzi bread. Still, I think if it’s recognizable as your corn bread that it’s okay. As DY points out, why is color and texture not enough of a different appearance as shape would be?March 4, 2012 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #1142200
popa: Do you have a source for that? I saw that you can make a siman in the tzura, but I haven’t seen that you can have the whole type of bread be your siman. Like that you only make whole wheat bread fleishig.
Similar to what itche is saying. I’m assuming corn bread looks a bit different than regular bread. If that’s true, and everyone in the house knows that the corn bread is fleishigs, than its fine.March 4, 2012 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #1142201March 5, 2012 1:52 am at 1:52 am #1142202
The R’ma simply says it must have a different tzura.March 5, 2012 1:58 am at 1:58 am #1142203
I wonder what the pshat is with english muffins.March 5, 2012 2:07 am at 2:07 am #1142204
On that topic, popa vanquished today. He got the people who pay for his bar ilan to upgrade to cover the encyclopedia talmudis also. Yay!March 5, 2012 2:40 am at 2:40 am #1142205
I wonder what the pshat is with english muffins.
Maybe ein issur chal al issur. 😉March 5, 2012 2:41 am at 2:41 am #1142206
Mazel Tov on the ET (what topic?).March 5, 2012 2:48 am at 2:48 am #1142207
all the topics.March 5, 2012 3:20 am at 3:20 am #1142208
I mean to ask what you meant when you wrote “On that topic…”. (Encyclopedia Talmudis is complete?)March 5, 2012 3:31 am at 3:31 am #1142209
no, I meant all the topics available.
On the topic of learning.March 5, 2012 12:08 pm at 12:08 pm #1142210
Thomas English Muffins are less than 1/60 milk. I once had an email exchange with the OU on this subjuct and will try to dig it up and post it.March 5, 2012 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #1142211
hello: It seems to me that the uniqueness of corn-bread would not meet the criteria of the Rashba, as a consumer would not see it as an indication of the corn-bread’s fleishig status, but rather of the uniqueness of corn-bread.
For consumers you are right. That would be in line with the Maharit brought down in the Pischei Tshuva. But for households it would be fine if everyone knows that the homemade corn-bread is fleishigs.
I also saw somewhere that we’re not choshesh for guests coming over the house.March 5, 2012 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #1142212
Hello: Thomas English Muffins are less than 1/60 milk. I once had an email exchange with the OU on this subjuct and will try to dig it up and post it.
IIRC, The tzemach tzedek says that there is also an issur of ein mevatlin with even less than 1/60. THe nachlas tzvi argues but I think that most achronim go with the tzemach tzedek.
However, since bedieved anyways it would be kosher, and I assume that Thomas is a non-jewish owned company, I can understand a svara that there’s no issur of ein mevatlin with goyim.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.