June 22, 2011 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #791160golden momMember
I was b”h zoche to make a shidduch and at the begining everytime I meet the couple together or sep the first words out of there mouth was always thank u ! Until I told them pls stop its so uncomfortable already I’m so happy that ur happy and just seeing
the smile on ur face is enough
So yes they should say thank you besides the $ and that’s also besides the nice card I also received from themJune 22, 2011 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #791161
It makes sense that it wouldn’t be different than any other s’chirus. If you hire a secretary to work for you (and she does), could you exempt yourself from paying her because no kinyan was made in a cheifetz?
By s’chirus, you either have prior agreement, or the original Ratzon of the Socher to pay. Here, it seems that is not the case.
What this is similar to (IMHO) is a summer worker where there are “unpaid internships” as well (such as a Shaddchan that works for free). In that case, the requirement to pay should be made up front.June 22, 2011 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #791162
Before we discuss these issues, we need to establish whether paying a shadchan is indeed a halachic requirement.June 22, 2011 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #791163
I don’t get any of this.
What’s not to get? These are not ehrliche people!
You, who are ehrlich, would of course treat he shadchan with the proper kavod!June 22, 2011 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #791164
By s’chirus, you either have prior agreement, or the original Ratzon of the Socher to pay. Here, it seems that is not the case.
The parents are not claiming that they thought it was a free shadchanus.
Besides, even when family friends make a shidduch just as a chessed (which doesn’t seem to be the case here), shadchanus is expected, albeit maybe on a different scale.June 22, 2011 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #791165
See ??”? ?”? ??? ?’ ??’ ?”?.June 22, 2011 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #791166
See ??”? ?”? ??? ?’ ??’ ?’?.
Rav Moshe does compare Shaddchanus to S’chirus. Perhaps your S’vora of “even when family friends make a shidduch just as a chessed (which doesn’t seem to be the case here), shadchanus is expected, albeit maybe on a different scale” applies to make it a “Sadeh H’Asuya Litah”.
Hadri Bi.June 22, 2011 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #791167
To Of Course (and everyone else):
IMHO, It comes down to whether you think being a shadchan is a business or you are doing it for the mitzvah and to make two people happy.
If you did it for the mitzvah and to make to people happy, then you should not be harping on the money. The couple, plus their parents, should have at least professed their gratitude, and given you a token (whatever it may be, even money) to show their appreciation. However, since you ARE harping on the money, I am assuming you meant to actually make money for your time and effort.
If you are doing it as a business (even as a money making hobby), then I agree with Wolf that you should have at least specified your intentions orally in the beginning (written would have beem a lot better). Since it seems you did not, then the burden of proof should be upon you to prove that you meant it as a money making opportunity and not gratis.
On a personal side note, after reading all these posts about wanting and demanding money (in as much as considering stalking the chosson and kallah during their sheva berachos on facebook!) for what I consider a huge mitzvah, I am very glad I decided to not deal with shadchanim for my dating life.June 22, 2011 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #791168
jewish and working 22,
You are simply ignoring the fact that there are halachos about this.June 22, 2011 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #791169
DY, You are simply ignoring the fact that there are halachos about this.
jaw22, What about the fact that Rabbonim say that non payment of Shadchanus is NOT good for the couple’s mazel? Wouldnt that make the parents selfish?
The mother’s behavior is very unique: first saying-I mailed an invitation wth a check, then- it must have gotten lost in the mail, to the present – the kids will take care of it.
Also, it’s the money too, many hours are involved, and there just arent enough Shadchanim who are willing to do it for free. Are you willing to start? If you were a Shadchan, it would take a very unique Tzadik gamur not to feel like a fool.June 22, 2011 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #791170wanderingchanaParticipant
Just an idea, but you could email the mother saying how happy you are to have helped her daughter find her bashert, and how appreciative you are that she sent the invitation/check. However, you have been watching your mail carefully, and you are concerned because they never arrived. Ask her if she could contact her bank to see if the check was cashed, because if it was, it was stolen. If not, it was lost in the mail, and either way, you would greatly appreciate it if she could send you a replacement check for your efforts.
Good luck…June 22, 2011 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #791171
wandering, If not, it was lost in the mail, and either way, you would greatly appreciate it if she could send you a replacement check for your efforts.
I emailed her weeks ago that I never got the check or invitation. She answered that she will stop the check. I asked her if she could please send another. She said she never shirks her responsibilities and “the kids will take care of it”.June 22, 2011 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #791172
DY and OC:
Please look at Reb Akiva Eiger C.M. 185; Pischei Teshuvah E.H. 50:16– rejecting the mistaken notion that a shadchan must always be paid.
Please see Erech Shai C.M. 185 (to summarize – If the parents fail to pay, there is no obligation for the bride and groom to pay the shadchan).
Furthermore, as you said “Also, it’s the money too, many hours are involved,”, you are considering it a business and not as a mitzvah. Then I am not arguing that you aren’t owed money. I am just saying you are going to have a hard time collecting since you didn’t make any agreements before hand.June 22, 2011 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #791173
As a side point, since you wrote “I recently made a Shidduch with a BT and they gave me a K’aroh for Pesach that I believe costed them about a hundred dollars and I was thrilled with it.” Then from your own admittance in saying this one can infer that you will be happy with about $100, since that was the rate you charged for this shidduch.
And to answer your question “and there just arent enough Shadchanim who are willing to do it for free. Are you willing to start?” The answer is OF COURSE. But I don’t match up strangers. I match up friends, people I know. I am extremely happy when my friends get married and I would not dream in a thousand years of ever demanding a cent from them for THEIR happiness! I think that is rude and ungrateful.June 22, 2011 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #791174
Please look at Reb Akiva Eiger C.M. 185; Pischei Teshuvah E.H. 50:16– rejecting the mistaken notion that a shadchan must always be paid.
For OC’s benefit, I’ll summarize:
If the shadchan initially stipulated that it was being done for free, he can’t later demand payment.
You didn’t say you were doing it for free, OC, did you? 😉
you are considering it a business and not as a mitzvah
There’s no reason that it can’t be both.June 22, 2011 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #791175
DY, throughout the Shidduch I spoke openly about expecting Shadchanus if a Shidduch goes through.
jaw22, what percentage of Shadchanim dont stipulate fees in advance and get Shadchanus nevertheless? I would think 85%.
I think (hope) it’s very rare for a Shadchan to get n o t h i n g (not even a call from the couple).June 22, 2011 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #791176
Seems like the parent is having a hard time financially, probably after taking a loan for the wedding and getting no Hakoras Hatov from the children (and not even offering to give the wedding presents to the parents). I would let it slide.
DY: J&W agrees that the money is owed. Then I am not arguing that you aren’t owed money. I am just saying you are going to have a hard time collecting since you didn’t make any agreements before hand.
That is similar to my argument before, which Rav Moshe seems to agree with. However, Rav Moshe in that teshuva seems to indicate that what is owed is the lowest common denomiator. Perhaps (maybe even probably) in a Din Torah “Of Course” could collect 100$, which he? agrees is acceptable in some cases.
I think what is bothering the OP is more the lack of Hakoras Hatov from the parents than the loss of actual money.June 22, 2011 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #791177
“There’s no reason that it can’t be both.”
I am not saying that it can’t be both, I was just acknowledging that OC considers it a business and was not doing it for the virtue of the mitzvah.
IMHO though, I think that doing a mitzvah for the money is, as people say, “not in the spirit” of the mitzvah (not that you won’t get a mitzvah).June 22, 2011 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #791178
I match up friends, people I know. I am extremely happy when my friends get married and I would not dream in a thousand years of ever demanding a cent from them for THEIR happiness!
I’ve done the same. In fact, one time the couple actually “badgered” me (in a friendly way) until I took a gift from them; and even then I would only take something small and symbolic.
But, OTOH, if the OP is doing this as a business/service, I certainly can’t fault her for wanting to be paid.
The WolfJune 22, 2011 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #791179miritchkaMember
I didnt have time to read through all the posts, but i wanted to point out that when my son had his bris, my husband was told that the going rate to pay a mohel was around $450-$500. A few months later, i was talking to a neighbor and she said that some mohelim get up to $1000 or more!
My point is that everyones ‘going rate’ is different. Shadchanim who are more well known usually get more, but when i enter teh shidduch scene for my children, how am i supposed to know who is more well know or more chashuv?! tell them straight out what you charge. if you’re vague, you cant be upset about not getting paid.June 22, 2011 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #791180
A shadchan needs to be paid
The Steipler frequently asked people who were experiencing shalom bauis problems or fertility problems if the shadchan was paid. Get the source and send a shaliach to them to explain why this is a bizayon, why it can have negative ramifications and why al pi Shulcha Aruch of law and of midos they need to fulfill their chiyuv.. The florist got paid as did the caterer, music, hall, landlord etc. now the shadchan. When I am mesader kiddushin I inform them that I will not get under that chupah unless the shadchan is paid.
No chiyuv to be mochail a monetary obligation without due reason and cause.
Hatzlacha!June 22, 2011 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #791181
I understand that it is considered a given that a Shadchan gets paid for the work put into making a match, regardless of when the payment should or shouldn’t be made. But I have a nagging issue about the whole thing: If two people, who are meant to be together, are never matched up by a Shadchan, isn’t it still obvious that they’ll meet some other way or at another time? Isn’t G-d in control over these things? What exactly is a Shadchan doing, aside from perhaps making them meet a little earlier, or taking some beginning awkwardness out of their relationship? I also don’t like the general idea of some random person who barely knows me trying to set me up with someone. I don’t care how “good” or “professional” they are.
Anyway, about paying them, since it’s considered a given, one should definitely pay. But I do agree with some of the posters here about stating the rate up front in order to avoid possible confusion or bad feelings.June 22, 2011 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #791182
RABBAIM, When I am mesader kiddushin I inform them that I will not get under that chupah unless the shadchan is paid.
May you be gezunt and shtark! We all know that our treatment of Shadchanim affects to some degree how involved Shadchanim want to be in the future. Especially when we deal with people who dont care or apologize for the couples who dont even make a call at the time of engagement. So, poor treatment of Shadchanim, in effect, at least minimally, creates less Jews. As far as the financial part, when you see photos of a very elegant wedding, in a very elegant hall, it hurts.
Not that many people, Shadchanim and otherwise, are on a G-dlike level.June 22, 2011 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #791183
The Steipler frequently asked people who were experiencing shalom bauis problems or fertility problems if the shadchan was paid.
Ah, so that’s why that other couple I set up got divorced… because I didn’t want to accept a gift from them.
I knew it was my fault somehow. How could I have been so selfish? 🙁
The WolfJune 22, 2011 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #791184
gaw and miritchka,
It seems to be a halacha in (S.A. C”M 332 – 1) that we go according to the lower prevailing price. But wedo not exempt entirely for lack of prior arrangement (as miritchka implied), or go according to an unusual circumstance (as gaw implied – see 332 , end of R’ma).June 22, 2011 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #791185
You shouldn’t pay you real estate broker either, since your house is also destined for you. Maybe you shouldn’t pay your gardener, since there’s a malach telling every blade of grass to grow.
I think you’ve also insulted shadchanim and denigrated the hard work they do.June 22, 2011 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #791186amichaiParticipant
of course – I think you should write the mother again and say I did not recieve the check as you say you sent. don’t be afraid or feel bad, just do it. you deserve the money. you worked hard. we want to hear that you wrote her.June 22, 2011 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #791187wanderingchanaParticipant
Of course: “I emailed her weeks ago that I never got the check or invitation. She answered that she will stop the check. I asked her if she could please send another. She said she never shirks her responsibilities and “the kids will take care of it”. “
Sorry to hear that…June 22, 2011 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #791188
Hashem promises to give you food… nosain lechem lchol basar…… posayach es yadecha……. michalkail chayim bchessed… so why pay the grocer?June 23, 2011 12:39 am at 12:39 am #791189
DaasYochid, Both of those services do things that otherwise wouldn’t happen. And I did not intend to insult anyone. I know that Shadchanim work hard. All I wanted to do was state an issue that bothered me about it.
Rabbaim, if I grew my own food in my backyard, then indeed, I don’t need to pay anyone. But since when getting it from a supermarket, the food does not belong to me, I have to pay for it.
All I had a problem with is that everyone has a match that is predetermined, so I was really just wondering out loud how much a Shadchan helps. I did not mean to hurt or insult anyone. If I did, I sincerely apologize.June 23, 2011 1:14 am at 1:14 am #791190
After thinking it over, I came up with the following possibility: True, a match is predetermined. And yes, these two people are bound to be together. It is possible that G-d is using the Shadchan as a messenger to bring these people together. Certain people meet through other means, but G-d decided that these particular people will meet through a Shadchan’s match. So a Shadchan is a messenger of G-d who is carrying out the predetermined decree. Does this make sense to anyone?
I feel that my original post was in bad taste. I apologize.June 23, 2011 1:41 am at 1:41 am #791191oomisParticipant
For the mazel of her kids, she should take care of it ASAP. I don’t usually believe in such stuff, but I have heard too many stories of married couples who were childless for no apparent reason, or who experienced one disaster after another, until a rov advised the parents to think back if they paid the shadchanus (they had not, in each case). When the shadchanus was finally paid after many years, and mechilah asked of the shadchanim, the situations improved dramatically.
Now maybe these were all “bubbah meises” that made the rounds, but there is always a grain of truth even in a meiseh. if Halacha dictates that shadchanus must be paid, it seems to make sense that something might shter the couple’s mazel, if it was not done. I am not a supersititious persohn by nature, but we do not know EVERYTHING or even ANYTHING of Hashem’s cheshbonos.June 23, 2011 3:16 am at 3:16 am #791192
middlepath – if you grew the girl/boy in the garden (meaning you did the shidduch yourself) you would not have to pay the shadchan!!
Secondly- yes everyone has a predetermined match. But as I have heard form many greats, sometimes we say NO to the one it was supposed to be for one or more of many reasons. The shadchan could be the one to turn it around and restore the person to their originally intended. Possible, no?June 23, 2011 3:24 am at 3:24 am #791193
First of all, you’re to be commended for your last comments.
Second, I used the example of a real estate broker because, similar to the bas kol of “bas ploni l’ploni”, there is also a bas kol of “bayis ploni l’ploni”.
And yes, a shadchan is Hashem’s shaliach (yes, that made sense), but that has no bearing on the compensation he deserves.June 23, 2011 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #791194
The inyan of paying a shadchan is huge, even to the point of fertility issues. But the onus is NOT on you to collect. That is out of your hands. The ONUS is up to them to pay. My daughter told me that her Kallah teacher told her that it was very important to pay the shadchan before walking down to the chupah. She made me nuts, literally. My nephew was the shadcahn and we bought them a beautiful silver vase @ $1,000. We usually buy silver because it is usually friends or acquaintances that made the shidduch. For my younger son, I found a beautiful sterling tea set for the shadchan, there was only one shadchan for both, so the mechutanim and I chipped in for it. The shadchan couple were in shock when they opened the box. Don’t get too excited, we got a very, very good deal. But, on the other hand, they in their 30’s had a sterling tea set.June 23, 2011 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #791195apushatayidParticipant
If you feel so strongly that you were wronged, take them to beis din. Otherwise, forget about it.June 23, 2011 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #791196adorableParticipant
make my shidduch and I promise to pay youJune 23, 2011 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #791197
But the onus is NOT on you to collect. That is out of your hands. The ONUS is up to them to pay.
Why do you feel that way? Would you say the same thing if it was a different type of debt, such as a loan, or compensation for a worker?
If you feel so strongly that you were wronged, take them to beis din. Otherwise, forget about it.
I would think that beis din would be a last resort. She should first try to work it out with them.June 24, 2011 4:23 am at 4:23 am #791198
DY, unless they had a specific financial agreement, then there is nothing she can do, and nothing she can say. She did her job and that was the mitzvah of making the shidduch. It is well known that the shadchan has to get paid, that is the job of the parents or couple. A shadchan cannot force someone to pay her especially if she is NOT a professional. This is NOT a business she runs. If it were, she would know to make a contract and agree on terms before. It doesn’t sound like that is the case here. If you do it l’shem mitzvah then you did your job and thats it. Then it is up to the Baa’elei Simcha to do their job because as I mentioned earlier there can be very devastating consequences.
You don’t do a mitzvah and then “tell” someone they have to pay you for it. And you don’t do a job for anyone, if you are working for them, without telling them how much you expect or you will charge beforehand. So if it was l’shem mitzvah she did her job and the payment is up to the families involved. If she is a professional shadchan then she is NOT supposed to work until the financials are discussed and agreed upon. If you are NOT a professional you can’t “CHARGE” a fee after the fact.
So NO DY, I wouldn’t say the same for a loan or compensation for a worker because it doesn’t fall into the same category. There is a loan contract and when you hire someone to do a job you agree to pay them with the amount clear and upfront. The OP did NOT say she was HIRED, nor that she was a PROFESSIONAL shadchan who runs this business and counts on the money for parnassah.June 24, 2011 5:26 am at 5:26 am #791199
aries, The OP did NOT say she was HIRED, nor that she was a PROFESSIONAL shadchan who runs this business and counts on the money for parnassah.
HUH? Irrelevant! Whether a Shadchan is professional or not, they succeeded in making the specific person’s Shidduch and have to be compensated. No Shadchan charges or expects anything for attempts at arranging dates, or per arranged date, but these days anytime someone completes a Shidduch, it goes without saying, unless the Shadchan is the rare breed who says they want no more than a dollar, that the Shadchan should get paid something close to the community’s going rate, professional or not!!!
Aries, I usually agree with you, but not in this case. How many Shidduchim have you heard of where the Shadchan was given zilch (involving relatives and friends where you’d have heard if the Shadchan got zilch) ? I havent heard of any! It’s sort of rare.
No I wont take them to a Din Torah or anything like that, though.June 24, 2011 5:57 am at 5:57 am #791200
It’s a nice theory, but according to halacha, they are obligated to pay, just like a worker or borrower need to be paid. This was discussed earlier in the thread (no I’m not c”v accusing you of disregarding halacha, I think you just don’t know – so don’t go opening another halache thread! ?).June 24, 2011 7:33 am at 7:33 am #791201YW Moderator-42Moderator
I know someone who set up his sister with his friend. He did not want to accept anything from his parents for Shadchanus but his Rebbi told him it’s a minhag Yisrael so he should take somethingJune 24, 2011 12:05 pm at 12:05 pm #791202Tzvi HirshMember
Years ago I made a shidduch. They both said that I was right on the mark in arranging them to meet. After they got married I very nicely asked for payment. The woman paid me half and the man said he did not have to pay because I was a friend even though I was more of a aquaintence than a friend. The result was I only got paid 1/4 of the going rate and guess what? They got divorced before the year was over!
Another time I made a shidduch and was not even invited to the Vort. Quess what they never got married!
I wonder how many people have shalom bayis problems or get divorced or dont have children because of not paying the Shaddchan.
After many years of lots of time and money trying to help set people up I stopped not only for not getting paid but for not being appreciated and sometimes even being avoided when our paths crossed.June 24, 2011 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #791203Mother in IsraelMember
After they got married I very nicely asked for payment. The woman paid me half and the man said he did not have to pay because I was a friend even though I was more of a aquaintence than a friend.
I think the fact that they each paid (or didn’t pay) separately was already an indication that something wasn’t right in their marriage.June 24, 2011 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #791204
Mother in Israel, well at least in my present case, the family, at this time, is in unity. Neither of the mothers, fathers, Chassan, Kallah, have sent a dime. And yes, they ALL agree I was the sole Shadchan. What unity! 😉June 24, 2011 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #791205
I am NOT saying that the OP does not deserve to get compensated, and I am not saying that she should not get compensated. I am saying that there is nothing she can do or should do at this point. She did her job. Yes, EVERY SHADCHAN HAS to get paid and DESERVES to get paid. But that mitzvah and that INYAN falls on the shoulders of the families involved. It is NOT the job of the shadchan to collect the payment unless there was an payment agreement before hand. That is what I am saying, so please understand that and don’t try to twist my words and read anything else into it.
A professional shadchan has a contract whether verbal or written. The finances are discussed and agreed upon at the first meeting before any work is done. There is no opportunity for miscommunication as far as financials are concerned.
I have never heard of any non-professional shadchan persuing a family for non-payment of a shidduch.
Of Course, I did NOT say you are wrong. I am agreeing with you. You should get compensated, you are supposed to get compensated. It is wrong if they don’t compensate you and there are dire consequences if they don’t. That is what I said. I don’t understand what you don’t agree with me about. Do you want to confront them about payment? Do you feel you should? Do you feel it is your job to go after payment? And by the way, there is no “going” rate. People give what they feel like giving, what they can afford to give or what they “think” the shadchan would appreciate. Payment according to the “rules” does not have to be more than a dollar, that is considered payment. Of course that would not be nice, but that is the truth.
It is very clear cut. The Shadchan has a huge mitzvah for making a shidduch. On the other hand there can be very bad consequences for a couple who didn’t pay the shadchan.June 24, 2011 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #791206sheinMember
I understand that Ofcourse IS a professional shadchan. No?June 24, 2011 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #791207
I didn’t twist your words – I know that you think it’s the right thing to pay. You also think though, that there is no “going rate” and there is no specific minimum amount without prior agreement, and on this you are wrong. If you think, as does Wolfish Musings, that it is wise to make clear the financial expectations in advance, I can understand that (although, as I stated, I also understand why shadchanim are uncomfortable doing so).
However, if someone did not do so, the parents are still obligated according to halacha (not “merely” yashrus) to pay according to the going rate (albeit the lower end of the normal range).
I’m sorry if you think I twisted your words.June 24, 2011 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #791208
On the other hand there can be very bad consequences for a couple who didn’t pay the shadchan.
Heck, that’s probably why that couple I set up got divorced — because I wouldn’t accept the shadchanus. At least they got three wonderful kids out of the deal first.
The WolfJuly 5, 2011 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #791209
Did they pay you yet?
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