“Marriage counseling hastens divorce far more often than it saves a marriage”

When one is in therapy they can no longer turn a blind eye to the harsh reality of the situation, when its an open book and you have to face how much you have suffered and why you can no longer do so.

Goq, you got it all wrong. The reason is because individual therapists empower clients without regard and interest of spouse’s perspective and side of story. This escalates conflict rather than resolve it. Individual therapists don’t care too much if client gets divorce and they don’t see it as a failure.

TheGoq, Enough Divorces is saying (and I’ve seen this happen as well) that the therapist might very well be empowering the wrong spouse.

DY, actually I’m saying that there is no right and wrong, but rather that in every conflict both sides contribute (regardless of percent ratios), so both sides are both right and wrong.

“BIderech sheadam rotzeh, nelech” iF YOU want to to get divroced- you’ll get it, therapy won’t do anything but help you get it faster.

BUT if one wants to work, therapy is AMAZING.

CTL’s observation is very interesting.
CTL, you’re an attorney. And you say that in the state of CT where you practice law, counseling is required before a divorce is granted.
Does the possibility exist that all or most of the couples from whom you reached your observation were already seeking a divorce, already in the system, and going for counseling because it’s required?
This would be similar to a doctor collecting data from the very sickest patients to make an observation about the efficacy of a new drug. If a majority of patients died, the doctor can conclude that the drug is not effective in the sickest patients. It may, however, be beneficial when administered early on before the condition has progressed unchecked and caused irreparable harm.
There is also the possibility that couples seeking a divorce will attend counseling just so they, and the practitioner, can sign on the dotted line that they passed this requirement and can now go ahead with their original objective. If they are not truly involving themselves in the process of their own free will, you can see where this would sabotage the intentions of the most competent professional.

Like everything else in life. Make sure the proper therapist is chosen.

Enough Divorces,

DY, actually I’m saying that there is no right and wrong, but rather that in every conflict both sides contribute (regardless of percent ratios), so both sides are both right and wrong.

This is a dangerously wrongheaded sentiment. If, for example, one spouse is unfaithful, or verbally or physically abusive, the fact that the other spouse leaves dirty dishes in the sink sometimes, or socks on the floor sometimes, or has brief moments of insensitivity or reactivity, is irrelevant to the actual conflict that is tearing the marriage apart. All spouses have these moments, because everyone is human, yet healthy marriages are largely unaffected by them. To put minor and normal flaws on the same pedestal as unhealthy, destructive behavior in some inane effort to ensure nobody’s precious feelings are hurt and that there is “no right and wrong” (?!!!) will do nothing but provide justification for the spouse engaging in the destructive behavior to continue.

Avram in MD – I think you raise an important point. A marriage that gets to the point where an outside counselor is involved is clearly already on the rocks. A marriage counselor’s job in that case is to help defuse the situation and save the marriage if possible, but if that’s not possible, to make things as smooth/amicable as can be. I’ve seen cases where couples have gone to Rabbonim and the counselors such Rabbonim recommended hoping to save the marriage, only for the recommendation to be to end things – one party had not realized just how bad things had become, and it took a third party to point out how it was affecting that spouse and the children.

So no, it’s not necessarily a bad thing that counselors can hasten divorce.

an Israeli Yid

@Avram

It is a requirement of the Family division of the Superior Court, not a state law that couples seeking a divorce go through marriage counseling. I have seen couples before the judge expecting their non-contested divorce to be granted, asked if they have gone through counseling and if not (to the satisfaction of the judge <testimony, letter from counselor, etc..) be sent to the mediation center to arrange counseling,

It has nothing to do with making the process more amicable. Some couples go through months or years of counseling before seeking a divorce and the process is still ruthless and bitter.

I had a client last year who had the marriage counselor release the records of counseling sessions to both attorneys. After the 3rd session, the counselor stated to the couple that the marriage should not be saved, additional sessions would be a waste of time and money and that divorce was the answer.

Also, I practice family law, which also includes wills, estates, trusts, adoptions, guardianships, conservatorships. I am not a ‘divorce lawyer’ per se.

An Israeli Yid writes, “A marriage that gets to the point where an outside counselor is involved is clearly already on the rocks.”

I’m not sure what you mean by an outside counselor (is there such a thing as an inside counselor?), or what you mean by “on the rocks,” but I think counseling (pastoral or otherwise) for couples who are having conflicts that they have difficulty resolving themselves can be a good thing, particularly early in a marriage. That’s before the “can’t teach old dog new tricks” phase.

As others have pointed out, there’s usually a point of no return where divorce is almost inevitable, but I hope most couples seek help long before this. I’m not talking about abusive spouses, but just the ordinary shalom bayis problems that most couples experience.

I’d like to have a job/license in something where the government mandates people to come to me. I wonder if there’s a wait-list or quality concern of the services at all.

“TheGoq, Enough Divorces is saying (and I’ve seen this happen as well) that the therapist might very well be empowering the wrong spouse.”

+2

“there is no right or wrong”
I agree with JJ that sometimes there is absolutely right and wrong, but I think a better description would be that nobody is free of some blame. Yes, abuse victims are not AT ALL to blame for the abuse. But within the MARRIAGE, there MAY be areas of blame to be placed on both parties.

Regarding empowering the wrong people – A fireand of mine was concerned about her relationship months after her second son was born. She found out her husband had not only been going to counseling, but that the thereapist recommended that he follow up on his feelings of being attracted to other men and “be true to himself” instead of stifling himself in a false relationship that wouldn’t be fair to anyone.
Separate from the underlying attraction issue, is that really how you steer someone who is ALREADY in a marriage and just had a second child? Is that REALLY in everyone (or anyone’s best interest?) That therapist did a lot to convince him that he was hurting his wife by staying with her and that he should explore who he really is.

To Avram in MD and JJ2020. There is not always a right or wrong. Your rebbi might be a malach Hashem, but perhaps you want to have a different marriage than he does? Perhaps he is rarely home, doesn’t cook, clean, shop, or help with the children. That’s perfectly ok and I sincerely believe that he and his wife can be genuinely happy with that arrangement. But maybe you won’t be. Or your wife won’t be. There’s no guarantee that two people will want the same things in a marriage, even if they did 10 or 20 years ago when they got married.

I’m not saying that wanting different things from a marriage is a valid justification to get divorced, but I think it’s a reasonable one. Remember that according to Beis Hillel valid justifications for divorce include הקדיחה תבשילו and according to R’ Akiva include מצא אחרת נאה הימנה. Can you believe that?! Would you approve of these “justifications”/”excuses”? Maybe these would be insufficient — or even “liberal” — reasons in your eyes, but they are reasonable to R’ Akiva and Beis Hillel.

All of these situations are terribly sad — people whose lives are upended, whose dreams are shattered, children hurt, and often it’s not because of any one person’s fault, maybe not either of their faults. Maybe they just fell out of love, or were never in love in the first place, and they want something else now. Maybe they’ll find it elsewhere, maybe not. Maybe they’ll be happier afterwards, or maybe they’ll regret it for the rest of their lives. If you were genuinely unhappy in your marriage, and sincerely believed there was no way you ever would be, and thought it was in yours and your spouse’s and childrens’ best interest to work towards ending it, I would be understanding, even if the mizbayech will shed many tears.

Assuming that marriage therapy does indeed hasten divorce as claimed, what is the alternative? Some posters suggest that it’s specifically the court-mandated marriage therapy that is counter-productive, as opposed to voluntary therapy, but I haven’t seen supporting statistics.

Marriage, though practiced throughout history by every sociological, cultural, economic and geographic group, is actually an astonishingly complex relationship. How can one ever determine with certainty whether this or that combination of experience, preferences, beliefs, ideals, intentions and strength of one person will mesh favorably over time with those of the other?

It’s rather mind-boggling!

midwesterner,

Virtually exactly what Enough Divorces said.

No, it is the exact opposite of what Enough Divorces is saying. If each spouse is laser focused on what s/he is personally doing right or wrong in the relationship, and consistently maintains a perspective of the longer term goals of the relationship, then a healthy marriage is possible. But, in a world where there is no right and wrong, because even though you may have done something wrong, your spouse did too, so stop blaming because it’s canceled out, there is NO focus on personal responsibility. The spouses are laser focused on what the other spouse is doing rather than themselves, and that is R”L a path to destruction.

We frequently hear, “it takes two to tango”, but forget that that goes for good behavior as much as or even more than for fighting.

I agree that there are situations that are not workable. However, I hope other posters would agree that there are unfortunately many situations that would have been workable had it been addressed early on with a competent mutual couple’s therapist, but had unfortunately ended with divorce on account of an individual therapist who addressed only one side, seeing things in black and white, thereby causing an escalation of the conflict to the point of no return.

M,

Your rebbi might be a malach Hashem, but perhaps you want to have a different marriage than he does? Perhaps he is rarely home, doesn’t cook, clean, shop, or help with the children. That’s perfectly ok and I sincerely believe that he and his wife can be genuinely happy with that arrangement. But maybe you won’t be. Or your wife won’t be. There’s no guarantee that two people will want the same things in a marriage, even if they did 10 or 20 years ago when they got married.

If I want to buy a new car, I may save money for a down payment by avoiding eating out for a year or two, even though I love eating out. I want both, but decided that the car is my priority, so I made a choice consistent with those values.

A Jewish husband’s marriage, as a part of his avodas Hashem, is a TOP priority. Therefore, he is willing to make a lot of accommodations in his life for his wife. A Jewish wife’s marriage is also a top priority for her, and therefore she also is willing to make a lot of accommodations to her husband. That’s a lot of accommodation power to work with.

I’m not saying that wanting different things from a marriage is a valid justification to get divorced, but I think it’s a reasonable one.

What are we talking about, one spouse who wants children and the other not? Or one spouse wants to move to Florida, and the other Montana?

Remember that according to Beis Hillel valid justifications for divorce include הקדיחה תבשילו and according to R’ Akiva include מצא אחרת נאה הימנה. Can you believe that?! Would you approve of these “justifications”/”excuses”? Maybe these would be insufficient — or even “liberal” — reasons in your eyes, but they are reasonable to R’ Akiva and Beis Hillel.

Perhaps a man who would divorce his wife for trivial reasons is so wicked that his wife is better off without him?

All of these situations are terribly sad — people whose lives are upended, whose dreams are shattered, children hurt, and often it’s not because of any one person’s fault, maybe not either of their faults. Maybe they just fell out of love, or were never in love in the first place, and they want something else now.

Sounds awfully selfish to me.

and thought it was in yours and your spouse’s and childrens’ best interest to work towards ending it, I would be understanding, even if the mizbayech will shed many tears.

That’s very different from what you wrote in the rest of the paragraph.

Enough Divorces,

However, I hope other posters would agree that there are unfortunately many situations that would have been workable had it been addressed early on with a competent mutual couple’s therapist, but had unfortunately ended with divorce on account of an individual therapist who addressed only one side, seeing things in black and white, thereby causing an escalation of the conflict to the point of no return.

Yes, I would agree with this.

“I agree that that is largely the case; however, would you agree that bringing up the other spouse’s wrongdoings in order to parry responsibility for one’s own wrongdoing is counterproductive and harmful to a relationship?”

no. I was just saying that an abusive marriage should be ended regardless of what the vitim also does wrong because abuse is never acceptable. But that doesn’t mean the abuse victim is free from fault in other aspects of the marriage and if a counselor fails to address these issue with HER, her second marriage may not work out either.

Case in point, my ‘friend’ from above ended up marrying a man who was always very passive. His first wife did not handle the stress of their difficult life situations well and was often angry and screaming. He reached a point where he couldn’t even tolerate being home with her anymore. They divorced. The ex went to counseling, he didn’t because he believed he just needed a non-abusive wife. His second marriage with the above wife did not last very long either as his passivity lent itself to other issues as well.

So no, it isn’t something to discuss with the abuser, but it is imperative to work thru with the abuse victim before setting off on another try.

“assuming he went to counseling to seek help improving his marriage”
no, unfortunately he went to address his attraction to men (and dwindled attraction to his wife).That is why she was not told he was going to therapy.

> “Have you considered the very real and strong possibility that, even if a marriage is in bad shape, a divorce
> will make things worse for all parties?”
I certainly do consider that possibility, though neither side of this debate is necessarily more “very real and strong” than the other. When (young?) children are included in “all parties”, things get even more complicated.

As others noted, it may come down to the frequency, degree and longevity of “bad shape” in a marriage. I think some of the dispute in this thread is in not analyzing/comparing like cases, but cases of radically different levels of conflict.