“Marriage counseling hastens divorce far more often than it saves a marriage”

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  • #1359130
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    1. It seems from your posts that you lack experience in this field.

    From your condescending attitude, it seems you are a therapist.

    2. You seem to be gender biased, although scientific data suggests that domineering traits and behaviour occurs equally with both genders.

    Why, because I assume that men more frequently leave their socks on the floor than women do?

    3. Force and being judgmental will hardly ever implement change, so your real objective is to make divorces and drastically harm innocent children under the guise of trying to change the spouse. Sounds like pro-choice advocates who have no problem killing babies for the sake of the mother.

    If you suspend all rational judgement, you can’t function as a human being, let alone maintain a marriage.

    #1359144
    JJ2020
    Participant

    Joseph- There are lots of people who stay married and the kids also suffer and feel guilty believing they are responsible for their parents bad relationship. The only good solution is for the parent or parents to improve. Divorce isn’t a solution in itself and neither is staying married. But if the marriage isn’t getting better it’s probably time for divorce.

    #1359143
    Joseph
    Participant

    Klal Yisroel needs to work on reducing divorces. Of course reduce underlying causes for divorce. But even in cases where the underlying issue persists, reducing the desire to seek divorce despite the persistence of issues that are less worse bearing with while maintaining a marriage than the problems triggered by divorce. Divorce should be strongly discouraged. Of course there will be exceptions, but this should be the strong rule. Chazal and Halacha makes this point as well.

    #1359164
    Ex-CTLawyer
    Participant

    Joseph………………..
    More second marriages end in divorce than first marriages…………
    Having seen that divorce ended an untenable marriage the first time and life goes on, people will end a bad second marriage more quickly than the first

    #1359170
    Joseph
    Participant

    Far more often divorce occurs in tenable marriages than in untenable ones.

    American culture (and by extension carried around the westernized world) has been strongly acclimated to believe and live in a disposable society.

    #1359226
    JJ2020
    Participant

    Failed marriages are very unfortunate. They are a symptom of other issues. The solution to which is not to keep people in unhealthy relationships. Those which aren’t being fixed should end.

    #1359236
    Joseph
    Participant

    They are a symptom of a disposable society. So many divorces were unnecessary and the marriages were very savable.

    #1359288
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    If a person leaves their house after a hurricane instead of rebuilding, does that mean they found their house disposable?

    #1359309
    Joseph
    Participant

    What percentage of people who leave their house do so due to a hurricane? A miutely small proportion of those who leave their home.

    So in that sense you, indeed, make a good comparison to divorce. Only a small percent were necessary.

    #1359311
    K-cup
    Participant

    Based only on my experience with divorced friends and aquaintences, i think the divorce problem starts before marriage. People getting married are not ready, and don’t know what to expect. Divorce rates are rising as the social fabric deteriorates.
    Unrelated question: has anybody ever met someone who divorced, and then wished they had stayed married to their previous spouse?
    Unrelated question 2: Joseph, are you married? If so, how long? (If that’s over the line mods can delete)

    #1359341
    Joseph
    Participant

    A very large percentage of divorcees later regret having divorced.

    #1359373
    The little I know
    Participant

    Having observed many more divorces than I am happy about, there are multiple causes for it, and it is rare that two cases are the same. There are many factors that enter into the equation. Some are grounds for therapy, modification, and change. This includes either or both of the individuals (referring to needed individual work) as well as re-education on how to handle marriage (communication, learning to respect and cherish each other, etc.)

    There are other matters that are not so simple. Here are just a few examples.

    Family interference. One cannot blame a young recently married man or woman from sharing their issues with their parents or other family. However, this is often a tragic step. The tendency is that family takes such information as a battle cry, rather than a cry for help. Instead of helping the couple reconcile differences, they often take oppositional stances, and introduce a level of conflict that may not have been in the picture before. This triggers a counter response, and we now have a war where the issues might have been reconciled. Once at war, it is a very steep climb to convert the situation to something manageable.

    Either of the couple may have some latent issues that were not known before the marriage. More often than not, this is a condition that was not disclosed during the shidduch phase. I have known of this involving medical conditions and psychiatric disorders that were simply kept secret. On occasion there was rabbinical support for this, which is hard to fathom. I do not take to a hechsher on dishonesty very well.

    There are more ways than cheating than the most commonly understood one. While I am not the one to blame technology for everything, it does become a tool that makes communication easier, and it also has addictive qualities. These can push the spouse away from his/her priority status, and this can become such a wedge that restoring a marriage is almost impossible.

    Dishonesty and secret keeping are horrible ingredients to a marriage. If one cannot trust their spouse, there is no basis left to feel safe, loved, or valued.

    Support systems can be lifesaving for many people. But they can also be toxic. When a couple hopes to restore a loving relationship, but either has a group of peers who are convincing them to do divisive things that undermine the repair of a relationship, the match of forces may be a recipe for disaster. Therapists often complain that their best efforts are thwarted by these support systems.

    Bottom line – no one gets divorced for fun. It is not recreation, and it provides pleasure for no one (except the therapists, toanim, lawyers, and dayanim who can milk the two parties for their personal gain). The decision to end a marriage is because it is assessed to be the lesser of the two evils. Perhaps it is true that some reach that decision in haste. But the wrong helpers contribute much to the overall problem.

    It is also its own dialogue – are our chassanim and kallahs properly prepared for marriage? If someone wishes to open a new thread on this, it might elicit some useful ideas. I would say that the best efforts of those engaged in teaching chassanim and kallahs are still wholly inadequate.

    #1359381
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Joseph, some things end in regret no matter what choice you make. Nobody ever truly knows what might have been.

    #1359402
    JJ2020
    Participant

    The little I know – some great points. Family and friends can often make things worse. Instead of helping the marriage they stoke the flames and encourage war. Same can happen with therapists. Also the part about not disclosing is also a huge one. People don’t want to share negative things about them selves and references don’t want to be responsible for breaking a shiduch. Mental health is another big one.

    People know that divorce isn’t an easy way out. They speak to people they know who are divorced who tell them it’s hard
    They know what it does to kids. People get divorced as a last resort.

    #1359448
    Ex-CTLawyer
    Participant

    @K-Cup
    Yes, I’ve met many people who after being divorced wished that they had stayed married to their previous spouse.
    Being in the family law business, my exposure to divorced people may be higher than the usual CR member, especially as many of my clients are not Jewish.
    There are different categories of wishing they were still married to the former spouse:
    #1 Spouse who did not seek the divorce>>>>forced out of the marriage
    #2 The person left the marriage for another and the grass is not greener on the other side. The relationship breaks up once the married person is free. The ‘third wheel’ has a pattern of seeing married people because it doesn’t call for total commitment
    #3 Still loves the ex-spouse>>>>pushed into divorce by meddling family, friends, therapist
    #4 Misses the kids…visitation doesn’t cut it
    #5 Poverty is now the state of living for the ex spouses and children. The same income can’t support two households
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Every year, I have a couple of clients who have been divorced, may have had another marriage and divorce, who end up remarrying their original spouse.

    #1359460
    eli lev
    Participant

    @all THERAPISTS, rabbis, rebbetzins, friends, family who are giving advice* …. PLEASE READ this book : The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce by judith wallerstein, a 25 [!!!!] year landmark study!

    [* or just thinking aloud]

    #1359600
    blubluh
    Participant

    I don’t mean for this to sound preachy, but when we criticize divorce to the extent that we portray it as some foolish, impulsive act that solves little and causes more suffering than it alleviates, aren’t we forgetting that it’s actually a mitzvas asei in the Torah?

    I’m not at all suggesting being cavalier about it and encouraging people to jump at the chance just to be mekayim a mitzvah, r”l. But, we ought not look at it as some modern-day corruption that resembles an aveira either.

    #1359635
    apushatayid
    Participant

    How many respondents in this thread are writing from experience. By experience I mean are or were in marriage counseling or any type of relationship therapy. Experience in my context does not mean I know a neighbor, or I heard from relative or acquantaince.

    #1359631
    Joseph
    Participant

    Yibum and chalitzah are also Mitzvos in the Torah. So is burying a meis. It’s also a Mitzvah to carry out a death sentence from Beis Din.

    Since divorce is a Mitzvah, shouldn’t you be encouraging everyone to get divorced?

    Divorce is a Mitzvah in the sense that it’s a Mitzvah to follow the correct Halachic procedures in carrying it out when unfortunately necessary. Just like the Mitzvah of carrying out a Misas Beis Din.

    #1359659
    The little I know
    Participant

    Joseph:

    You wrote: :Divorce is a Mitzvah in the sense that it’s a Mitzvah to follow the correct Halachic procedures in carrying it out when unfortunately necessary. Just like the Mitzvah of carrying out a Misas Beis Din.”

    That comment is appreciated, and is very accurate. The reality is that marriages are seldom terminated over a minor spat. If you ask therapists, it is close to universal that the opening issues brought into the process are ho-hum and trivial. However, the true issue is that they have chosen a microscopic issue to haggle over, and the underlying conflict is me against you. The untrained third party will easily get sucked into the right versus wrong issue relevant to the subject of the argument. But no one comes to the professional to resolve the argument. They come to seek an ally, to be the “right” one and to make their own position two against one. That alone is terribly divisive. The trained professional redirects the process to core issues and away from the nonsense that was the subject of the latest fight. The more solid relationships are not swayed by these arguments, and there is no investment in winning or losing.

    Most rabbonim have zero training in shalom bayis guidance. If anything, they are taught to pasken shailos, and they focus on the subject matter of the argument. Suppose the couple discovers that they differ in terms of holding from the local eruv. Halacha directs the wife to follow the minhag of the husband. There can easily be an argument that holding from an eruv that is against halacha is not a minhag, and that a wife need not follow a husband in that matter. Yes, this is a real point of conflict. The average Rov will address the technical aspect of the conflict, and is most likely to be oblivious that the eruv is not the real issue at all. They can pasken the eruv issue, perhaps the matter of the wife following the husband’s accepted psak halacha. But they will nearly always miss the real point of conflict, and their well intentioned efforts will be useless to the couple.

    Back to the crux of the comment. The laws of gittin are not there to seek its fulfillment. It is a tragic end to something that all wish could have been full of enjoyment, hatzlocho, and simcha. I know it is the obvious, but the cavalier attitude that has crept into our community mandates that we reiterate that divorce is a last resort.

    #1359677
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I would say that the best efforts of those engaged in teaching chassanim and kallahs are still wholly inadequate.

    It’s supposed to start with their parents, from when they’re babies…

    If someone has the proper morals, values, and middos they’re supposed to get from the chinuch they received, chosson/kallah classes could be useful.

    If not, even the best instruction would be like putting a bandaid on a deep, gushing wound.

    #1359747
    The little I know
    Participant

    DY:

    Absolutely correct. The greatest ingredient in the preparation for marriage is a healthy role model from one’s parents. I wish we all had it. However, among the crowd of younger couples (in older ones, too, but a bit less so), there are many whose role models were either absent or unhealthy. Similarly, the messages from one’s community and culture have a profound effect, and there have been many such messages that are negative.

    So the role that chosson and kallah classes play today is far greater than in generations passed. Years ago, nearly all such preparation was done by parents. It is comparatively new that this has become an outsider giving hadracha. But today, the concentration on halacha is still the main focus (no one would minimize its importance), and too little attention is given to the cardinal rules for how to manage relationships. We are all aware of someone whose parental role models were clearly impaired, while they themselves chose to behave very differently. When the entire culture values entitlements, marriage fails to succeed if such attitudes are brought into the home.

    Approaching marriage as a sport is a fatal error. How many people seek marriage because their peers are getting married or because they turned that magic age of whatever? These are poor motivators, and they divert the focus to midos that are not conducive to the forming of a shlaimus of a couple.

    Yeshivos and schools are notorious for either being obsessed with academic excellence, with midos being nearly ignored. Or the mussar that is promulgated in the yeshiva and school is academic, as opposed to practical. I do believe that yeshivos and Bais Yaakovs could do more here. But these are supplements to a healthy upbringing at home.

    #1359792
    Enough Divorces
    Participant

    Little I know, you seem to actually know a lot! Everything you wrote is right on mark. Thanks for the insights.

    #1359764
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    In past generations, there were far more orphans. Therefore fewer role models.

    #1360345
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Again, those who agree with the statement of this thread title, are you speaking from experience? Experience does not mean, I heard from my cousin, or my divorced neighbor told me or anything similar. It means, are you writing from the experience of sitting through marriage counseling sessions either by yourself or together with your spouse.

    #1360365
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    The facts don’t depend on experience.

    #1360438
    huju
    Participant

    Re CTLawyer’s comment about Joseph’s citation of CTLawyer’s comment about marriage counselling: There is another factor (aside from the absence of clergy from compulsory marital counselling before divorce in Connecticut) that may skew the divorce rate among the maritally counselled in Connecticut: Because the counselling is compulsory in Connecticut, some couples may enter counselling only as a required formality, with their minds already made up, and with no intention of changing their decisions in the course of counselling. That does not reflect on the wisdom of voluntary counselling by seriously interested couples, but compulsory counselling may be an empty gesture.

    #1360408
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Read the excellent article in yesterday’s NY Times addressing the growing number for frum Yiddeshe women coming forward to report domestic abuse. There is more willingness among rabbonim and askanim in the frum tzibur to affirmatively address these issues, provide access to resources and counseling and when needed, assist in obtaining a divorce as an option where the women are provided a needed support network for life afterwards. This is not the only reason for the changing trends, but certainly a factor.

    #1360446
    Ex-CTLawyer
    Participant

    huju…………
    There are those couples who enter marriage counseling because they are experiencing problems in their marriage. Counseling does not resolve the issues and they divorce.
    Then there are those couples who reach the judge for dissolution of marriage….the end of the divorce process and are asked ‘did you undergo marriage counseling?’ If they answer no, they are sent to family relations in the courthouse to arrange for counseling and the divorce is put on hold.
    I did not (nor did the speaker at the APA seminar) include this second type of couple in the observation.

    Competent family law attorneys will ask the prospective divorce client if they have gone to counseling with their spouse. If the prospective client is the one seeking the divorce, they are told to come back after counseling if they still want to start the process. If it is the spouse being sued for divorce, they are told that they will be required to undergo marriage counseling before a divorce is granted.

    Anecdotal evidence from years in the courthouses, the vast majority of those sent by the judge to family relations to arrange counseling (instead of the divorce being granted) are those couple not represented by counsel.
    CT procedure has a minimum 90 day period for a divorce. Those with less than $35,000 in assets, who have no children and don’t own real estate in an uncontested divorce can fast track to a 35 day divorce.

    If you have minor children and will have any type of custody or visitation after the divorce you are required to attend parenting classes.

    #1360681
    Health
    Participant

    Joe -“They are a symptom of a disposable society. So many divorces were unnecessary and the marriages were very savable”

    In my case, others convinced my ex that our marriage is disposable. it’s interesting how many Frum people have goyishe thinking, but aren’t exposed to TV, internet etc.

    #1361045
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “The facts don’t depend on experience.”

    Anecdotal information does not make something fact.

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