“Marriage counseling hastens divorce far more often than it saves a marriage”

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  • #1358651
    Joseph
    Participant

    Frum family/divorce lawyer CTLawyer stated the following on another thread:

    I can honestly say from experience, and I practice in a state that requires marriage counseling before a divorce can be granted, marriage counseling hastens divorce far more often than it saves a marriage.

    Comments?

    #1358833
    TheGoq
    Participant

    When one is in therapy they can no longer turn a blind eye to the harsh reality of the situation, when its an open book and you have to face how much you have suffered and why you can no longer do so.

    #1358840
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Joseph………………
    I am honored that you picked this quotation out form my post ion another thread.

    Everyone should be aware that I am referring to counselling by a licensed therapist (social worker, psychologist, etc.) not a clergy member when making this observation. In fact, our court system which requires counseling prior to divorce lays out the categories of authorized counselors and does not include pastoral counseling.

    My statement should not be taken to impugn the advice of a couple’s Rav, or possible success or failure in saving the marriage by that Rav.

    #1358844
    Enough Divorces
    Participant

    Goq, you got it all wrong. The reason is because individual therapists empower clients without regard and interest of spouse’s perspective and side of story. This escalates conflict rather than resolve it. Individual therapists don’t care too much if client gets divorce and they don’t see it as a failure.

    #1358848
    TheGoq
    Participant

    if someone has been treated like a shmatta they should be empowered.

    #1358850
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    TheGoq, Enough Divorces is saying (and I’ve seen this happen as well) that the therapist might very well be empowering the wrong spouse.

    #1358852
    Enough Divorces
    Participant

    Shmatta is a relative term. Everyone in a conflict claims themselves as a shmatta and victim.

    #1358854
    Enough Divorces
    Participant

    DY, actually I’m saying that there is no right and wrong, but rather that in every conflict both sides contribute (regardless of percent ratios), so both sides are both right and wrong.

    #1358858
    adocs
    Participant

    Perhaps too many people wait too long and by the time they go to therapy it’s too far gone and they’re just going through the motions to satisfy a requirement by the court or beis din.

    In other words, causation or correlation?

    #1358862
    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    “BIderech sheadam rotzeh, nelech” iF YOU want to to get divroced- you’ll get it, therapy won’t do anything but help you get it faster.

    BUT if one wants to work, therapy is AMAZING.

    #1358857
    TheGoq
    Participant

    I am not qualified to have an opinion on this i only know from my personal therapy which is of course different from couple therapy.

    #1358863
    golfer
    Participant

    CTL’s observation is very interesting.
    CTL, you’re an attorney. And you say that in the state of CT where you practice law, counseling is required before a divorce is granted.
    Does the possibility exist that all or most of the couples from whom you reached your observation were already seeking a divorce, already in the system, and going for counseling because it’s required?
    This would be similar to a doctor collecting data from the very sickest patients to make an observation about the efficacy of a new drug. If a majority of patients died, the doctor can conclude that the drug is not effective in the sickest patients. It may, however, be beneficial when administered early on before the condition has progressed unchecked and caused irreparable harm.
    There is also the possibility that couples seeking a divorce will attend counseling just so they, and the practitioner, can sign on the dotted line that they passed this requirement and can now go ahead with their original objective. If they are not truly involving themselves in the process of their own free will, you can see where this would sabotage the intentions of the most competent professional.

    #1358871
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Adocs and golfer, good points, but not that CTL does not merely observe that it doesn’t help much, but rather that it actually hastens divorce.

    #1358872
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Like everything else in life. Make sure the proper therapist is chosen.

    #1358873
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @Golfer
    two years ago I attended a symposium on the success of marriage counseling given by the local chapter of the American Psychological Association.
    The subject of the success of marriage counseling was discussed in detail. The results presented by the panel of practicing CT marriage counselors mirrored my observation of couples going through the civil divorce process.
    Few marriages are saved by marriage counseling. Once the marriage is so far broken/damaged that both members of the couple are willing, or court ordered to undergo marriage counseling, the marriage is not saved. The counselor often shows the couple why the marriage should be dissolved, often reinforcing the feelings of the party seeking the divorce.

    this is quite DIFFERENT from one partner seeking a therapists help in trying to improve the marriage. Individual, or even couples therapy may strengthen a weak marriage, but that is not the same as marriage counseling which does not deal with an individual’s underlying psychological state

    #1358881
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Enough Divorces,

    DY, actually I’m saying that there is no right and wrong, but rather that in every conflict both sides contribute (regardless of percent ratios), so both sides are both right and wrong.

    This is a dangerously wrongheaded sentiment. If, for example, one spouse is unfaithful, or verbally or physically abusive, the fact that the other spouse leaves dirty dishes in the sink sometimes, or socks on the floor sometimes, or has brief moments of insensitivity or reactivity, is irrelevant to the actual conflict that is tearing the marriage apart. All spouses have these moments, because everyone is human, yet healthy marriages are largely unaffected by them. To put minor and normal flaws on the same pedestal as unhealthy, destructive behavior in some inane effort to ensure nobody’s precious feelings are hurt and that there is “no right and wrong” (?!!!) will do nothing but provide justification for the spouse engaging in the destructive behavior to continue.

    #1358883
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    CTLawyer,

    Would I be wrong in assuming that the state law mandating marriage counseling (and the counselors themselves) do not consider “saving” the marriage to be the goal, but rather that the divorce process is more amicable?

    #1358894
    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    Avram in MD – I think you raise an important point. A marriage that gets to the point where an outside counselor is involved is clearly already on the rocks. A marriage counselor’s job in that case is to help defuse the situation and save the marriage if possible, but if that’s not possible, to make things as smooth/amicable as can be. I’ve seen cases where couples have gone to Rabbonim and the counselors such Rabbonim recommended hoping to save the marriage, only for the recommendation to be to end things – one party had not realized just how bad things had become, and it took a third party to point out how it was affecting that spouse and the children.

    So no, it’s not necessarily a bad thing that counselors can hasten divorce.

    an Israeli Yid

    #1358893
    Enough Divorces
    Participant

    Avrum md,

    1. Verbally abusive is a relative term and covers a wide spectrum.

    2. A spouse’s reaction, tolerance and understanding towards her/his spouse’s behaviour has more to do with her/his own personality, issues, and communication skills, than it has to do with who’s right or wrong.

    3. Dirty socks and dishes most likely include underlying passive agressiveness as a way of countering the spouse’s previous behavior, which indicates weak communication skills s on her/his part.

    Actually you are the one making DANGEROUS comments, as it’s your attitude that is leading to an alarming divorce rate in our community to the detriment of yiddeshe kinder.

    #1358903
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @Avram

    It is a requirement of the Family division of the Superior Court, not a state law that couples seeking a divorce go through marriage counseling. I have seen couples before the judge expecting their non-contested divorce to be granted, asked if they have gone through counseling and if not (to the satisfaction of the judge <testimony, letter from counselor, etc..) be sent to the mediation center to arrange counseling,

    It has nothing to do with making the process more amicable. Some couples go through months or years of counseling before seeking a divorce and the process is still ruthless and bitter.

    I had a client last year who had the marriage counselor release the records of counseling sessions to both attorneys. After the 3rd session, the counselor stated to the couple that the marriage should not be saved, additional sessions would be a waste of time and money and that divorce was the answer.

    Also, I practice family law, which also includes wills, estates, trusts, adoptions, guardianships, conservatorships. I am not a ‘divorce lawyer’ per se.

    #1358907
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Verbally abusive is a relative term and covers a wide spectrum.

    He is obviously talking about seriously abusive. Not all verbal negativity is equal.

    Dirty socks and dishes most likely include underlying passive agressiveness as a way of countering the spouse’s previous behavior

    Most likely? Most likely, he did the same when he was a bochur.

    it’s your attitude that is leading to an alarming divorce rate in our community

    No, it’s your attitude that all misbehavior is equal which makes it nearly impossible to save a marriage. Both always have to deal with their issues, but when the abusive one is led to believe that it’s no worse than leaving socks on the floor, there’s little hope he’ll change.

    #1358943
    yehudayona
    Participant

    An Israeli Yid writes, “A marriage that gets to the point where an outside counselor is involved is clearly already on the rocks.”

    I’m not sure what you mean by an outside counselor (is there such a thing as an inside counselor?), or what you mean by “on the rocks,” but I think counseling (pastoral or otherwise) for couples who are having conflicts that they have difficulty resolving themselves can be a good thing, particularly early in a marriage. That’s before the “can’t teach old dog new tricks” phase.

    As others have pointed out, there’s usually a point of no return where divorce is almost inevitable, but I hope most couples seek help long before this. I’m not talking about abusive spouses, but just the ordinary shalom bayis problems that most couples experience.

    #1358950
    midwesterner
    Participant

    There are some wonderful gems on the tapes of Rav Avigdor MIller, zt”l, that can be found not in the regular lectures, but in the open floor Q&A at the end of the shiur.
    Q: Rabbi Miller; Why are there so many mitzvos not to oppress and bother an almanah, but nothing regarding a gerusha? Aren’t they both undergoing the same challenges of single motherhood?
    A: Because 99% of divorces are the woman’s fault.
    At this point you can hear serious shuffling in the background, mumbling and grumbling from the audience, like a rebellion is about to launch.
    Rabbi Miller continued, “And in case you think I am anti women, I will add that 99% of divorces are the fault of the man. There are maybe 1% extreme cases on either end that are the fault of only one spouse. However, in the vast majority of cases, both parties are at fault and both could have done things to salvage the relationship.”
    Virtually exactly what Enough Divorces said.

    #1358960
    jdf007
    Participant

    I’d like to have a job/license in something where the government mandates people to come to me. I wonder if there’s a wait-list or quality concern of the services at all.

    #1358973
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Since I’m relatively sure that I have more experience on the receiving end then other posters, my answer is simple. It depends on the person and the therapist. A committed person and a good therapist will solve problems.
    Unfortunately, I have met numerous therapists that lack either basic common sense, or the basic ability to guide people.
    I have advised people on the better therapists in my area. My advice has always been
    1) both parties involved should like the therapist, if not try another.
    2) Don’t assume they know better than you, It’s 99% common sense (which is why a Rav is perfectly capable of guiding couples)
    3) The therapist should be laid back. Many are so stuck in concepts that they pick up in a book and are incapable of seeing past “book sense”. These people are dangerous because they are constantly trying to find pathology, as opposed to treating real world people. Many, Many , Many of those calling themselves therapists are people with more mental pathology then the people they treat. I personally believe these people go into the field to try to understand themselves more than the people they treat, and these people really shouldn’t be treating people.

    #1358999
    JJ2020
    Participant

    “TheGoq, Enough Divorces is saying (and I’ve seen this happen as well) that the therapist might very well be empowering the wrong spouse.”

    +2

    #1358998
    JJ2020
    Participant

    Enough Divorces “DY, actually I’m saying that there is no right and wrong, but rather that in every conflict both sides contribute (regardless of percent ratios), so both sides are both right and wrong.”

    There is no right and wrong?! That is what the secular liberals may tell you but its 100% false. This attitude is a huge part of the problem. Therapists and others come in with the assumptions that everyone is a little wrong and just be nice and it will all be okay. This is often not the case. Many times there is one person abusing the other and the victim is not to be blamed for this. Is the victim perfect? Maybe not but you can’t blame them for being mistreated.

    #1359002
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “there is no right or wrong”
    I agree with JJ that sometimes there is absolutely right and wrong, but I think a better description would be that nobody is free of some blame. Yes, abuse victims are not AT ALL to blame for the abuse. But within the MARRIAGE, there MAY be areas of blame to be placed on both parties.

    Regarding empowering the wrong people – A fireand of mine was concerned about her relationship months after her second son was born. She found out her husband had not only been going to counseling, but that the thereapist recommended that he follow up on his feelings of being attracted to other men and “be true to himself” instead of stifling himself in a false relationship that wouldn’t be fair to anyone.
    Separate from the underlying attraction issue, is that really how you steer someone who is ALREADY in a marriage and just had a second child? Is that REALLY in everyone (or anyone’s best interest?) That therapist did a lot to convince him that he was hurting his wife by staying with her and that he should explore who he really is.

    #1359014
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Enough Divorces,

    1. Verbally abusive is a relative term and covers a wide spectrum.

    No it’s not, and no it doesn’t. When I write verbally or physically abusive, I mean a pattern of behavior that makes a safe and healthy marriage impossible.

    2. A spouse’s reaction, tolerance and understanding towards her/his spouse’s behaviour has more to do with her/his own personality, issues, and communication skills, than it has to do with who’s right or wrong.

    You are conflating two completely separate concepts. Yes, a person owns his/her feelings and responses to someone else. If someone snaps at his/her spouse, the spouse has a choice of whether I think, “s/he snapped at me because s/he’s had a hard day and is very tired, I should let this go”, or “s/he hates me.” But the choice of response has NOTHING to do with the inherent rightness or wrongness of the other spouse’s behavior. Nor the obligation to treat one’s spouse lovingly and with respect, which does not go away just because your spouse is a tzaddik. Hashem knows what is in your heart.

    3. Dirty socks and dishes most likely include underlying passive agressiveness as a way of countering the spouse’s previous behavior, which indicates weak communication skills s on her/his part.

    Wow, first you admonish me about the importance of responsibility for how you respond, and then you come up with this gem of unfavorable judgement?

    Actually you are the one making DANGEROUS comments, as it’s your attitude that is leading to an alarming divorce rate in our community to the detriment of yiddeshe kinder.

    Since you seem to believe that you know my thoughts and attitude, can you save me the typing time and spell them out for me?

    #1359011
    M
    Participant

    To Avram in MD and JJ2020. There is not always a right or wrong. Your rebbi might be a malach Hashem, but perhaps you want to have a different marriage than he does? Perhaps he is rarely home, doesn’t cook, clean, shop, or help with the children. That’s perfectly ok and I sincerely believe that he and his wife can be genuinely happy with that arrangement. But maybe you won’t be. Or your wife won’t be. There’s no guarantee that two people will want the same things in a marriage, even if they did 10 or 20 years ago when they got married.

    I’m not saying that wanting different things from a marriage is a valid justification to get divorced, but I think it’s a reasonable one. Remember that according to Beis Hillel valid justifications for divorce include הקדיחה תבשילו and according to R’ Akiva include מצא אחרת נאה הימנה. Can you believe that?! Would you approve of these “justifications”/”excuses”? Maybe these would be insufficient — or even “liberal” — reasons in your eyes, but they are reasonable to R’ Akiva and Beis Hillel.

    All of these situations are terribly sad — people whose lives are upended, whose dreams are shattered, children hurt, and often it’s not because of any one person’s fault, maybe not either of their faults. Maybe they just fell out of love, or were never in love in the first place, and they want something else now. Maybe they’ll find it elsewhere, maybe not. Maybe they’ll be happier afterwards, or maybe they’ll regret it for the rest of their lives. If you were genuinely unhappy in your marriage, and sincerely believed there was no way you ever would be, and thought it was in yours and your spouse’s and childrens’ best interest to work towards ending it, I would be understanding, even if the mizbayech will shed many tears.

    #1359017
    Enough Divorces
    Participant

    Jj2020, actually liberals blame men on all marital conflicts, in the same way they solely blame Israel for all Palestinian woes.

    DY,

    1. It seems from your posts that you lack experience in this field.

    2. You seem to be gender biased, although scientific data suggests that domineering traits and behaviour occurs equally with both genders.

    3. Force and being judgmental will hardly ever implement change, so your real objective is to make divorces and drastically harm innocent children under the guise of trying to change the spouse. Sounds like pro-choice advocates who have no problem killing babies for the sake of the mother.

    #1359003
    blubluh
    Participant

    Assuming that marriage therapy does indeed hasten divorce as claimed, what is the alternative? Some posters suggest that it’s specifically the court-mandated marriage therapy that is counter-productive, as opposed to voluntary therapy, but I haven’t seen supporting statistics.

    Marriage, though practiced throughout history by every sociological, cultural, economic and geographic group, is actually an astonishingly complex relationship. How can one ever determine with certainty whether this or that combination of experience, preferences, beliefs, ideals, intentions and strength of one person will mesh favorably over time with those of the other?

    It’s rather mind-boggling!

    #1359024
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    anIsraeliYid,

    So no, it’s not necessarily a bad thing that counselors can hasten divorce.

    To be clear, I was not intending to imply that the intentions of marriage counselors in my question to CTLawyer above were desirable or right. Joseph’s OP seems to be a polemic against marriage counseling, because marriage counseling “fails” most of the time. But there is a difference between utilizing counseling to better a relationship, and utilizing counseling to help with the path of separation. I suspect that CTLawyer’s observation quoted by the OP is true at least in part because he sees the results of counseling for the latter purpose a lot of the time.

    #1359028
    Joseph
    Participant

    “M”: 1) Those reasons you cite from Tannaim justifying divorce is, even according to that own shitta, only applicable if it is the husband desiring it. If it is she desiring it, they agree that is an insufficient reason for divorce. 2) Even if the husband desires divorce for that reason, halacha l’maaisa is paskened that it is an insufficient reason.

    #1359030
    Joseph
    Participant

    M, blubluh: Have you considered the very real and strong possibility that, even if a marriage is in bad shape, a divorce will make things worse for all parties?

    #1359032
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    midwesterner,

    Virtually exactly what Enough Divorces said.

    No, it is the exact opposite of what Enough Divorces is saying. If each spouse is laser focused on what s/he is personally doing right or wrong in the relationship, and consistently maintains a perspective of the longer term goals of the relationship, then a healthy marriage is possible. But, in a world where there is no right and wrong, because even though you may have done something wrong, your spouse did too, so stop blaming because it’s canceled out, there is NO focus on personal responsibility. The spouses are laser focused on what the other spouse is doing rather than themselves, and that is R”L a path to destruction.

    We frequently hear, “it takes two to tango”, but forget that that goes for good behavior as much as or even more than for fighting.

    #1359033
    JJ2020
    Participant

    Some times both are to blame some times more one then the other and sometimes one person is great and the other is to blame. You can’t make blanket statements about blame. Each case is different and should be treated as such. We all have biases towards certain things whether that is to favor the man or woman or being sensitive to certain types of abuse. You need someone who is very good at this and I’d venture to guess that most therapists and Rabbis aren’t experts in this area. There are lots of people with good intentions but who don’t know what they are doing.

    #1359034
    Enough Divorces
    Participant

    I agree that there are situations that are not workable. However, I hope other posters would agree that there are unfortunately many situations that would have been workable had it been addressed early on with a competent mutual couple’s therapist, but had unfortunately ended with divorce on account of an individual therapist who addressed only one side, seeing things in black and white, thereby causing an escalation of the conflict to the point of no return.

    #1359035
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Perhaps the problem is everyone is busy empowering and being empowered. it isnt about winning and losing. If you have a therapist, and clients, who understand this, therapy will more than likely be more productive than simply trying to empower someone.

    #1359036
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    M,

    Your rebbi might be a malach Hashem, but perhaps you want to have a different marriage than he does? Perhaps he is rarely home, doesn’t cook, clean, shop, or help with the children. That’s perfectly ok and I sincerely believe that he and his wife can be genuinely happy with that arrangement. But maybe you won’t be. Or your wife won’t be. There’s no guarantee that two people will want the same things in a marriage, even if they did 10 or 20 years ago when they got married.

    If I want to buy a new car, I may save money for a down payment by avoiding eating out for a year or two, even though I love eating out. I want both, but decided that the car is my priority, so I made a choice consistent with those values.

    A Jewish husband’s marriage, as a part of his avodas Hashem, is a TOP priority. Therefore, he is willing to make a lot of accommodations in his life for his wife. A Jewish wife’s marriage is also a top priority for her, and therefore she also is willing to make a lot of accommodations to her husband. That’s a lot of accommodation power to work with.

    I’m not saying that wanting different things from a marriage is a valid justification to get divorced, but I think it’s a reasonable one.

    What are we talking about, one spouse who wants children and the other not? Or one spouse wants to move to Florida, and the other Montana?

    Remember that according to Beis Hillel valid justifications for divorce include הקדיחה תבשילו and according to R’ Akiva include מצא אחרת נאה הימנה. Can you believe that?! Would you approve of these “justifications”/”excuses”? Maybe these would be insufficient — or even “liberal” — reasons in your eyes, but they are reasonable to R’ Akiva and Beis Hillel.

    Perhaps a man who would divorce his wife for trivial reasons is so wicked that his wife is better off without him?

    All of these situations are terribly sad — people whose lives are upended, whose dreams are shattered, children hurt, and often it’s not because of any one person’s fault, maybe not either of their faults. Maybe they just fell out of love, or were never in love in the first place, and they want something else now.

    Sounds awfully selfish to me.

    and thought it was in yours and your spouse’s and childrens’ best interest to work towards ending it, I would be understanding, even if the mizbayech will shed many tears.

    That’s very different from what you wrote in the rest of the paragraph.

    #1359049
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Syag Lchochma,

    but I think a better description would be that nobody is free of some blame. Yes, abuse victims are not AT ALL to blame for the abuse. But within the MARRIAGE, there MAY be areas of blame to be placed on both parties.

    I agree that that is largely the case; however, would you agree that bringing up the other spouse’s wrongdoings in order to parry responsibility for one’s own wrongdoing is counterproductive and harmful to a relationship?

    She found out her husband had not only been going to counseling,

    Wow, the fact that her husband was in counseling and she didn’t know is already a tremendous red flag, even before we read what’s below.

    but that the thereapist recommended that he follow up on his feelings of being attracted to other men and “be true to himself” instead of stifling himself in a false relationship that wouldn’t be fair to anyone.

    Obviously a counselor with the “values” of the secular culture, not frumkeit. It boggles my mind how some therapists give such direct, life altering advice, rather than helping the client achieve his stated goals (assuming he went to counseling to seek help improving his marriage).

    Separate from the underlying attraction issue, is that really how you steer someone who is ALREADY in a marriage and just had a second child? Is that REALLY in everyone (or anyone’s best interest?) That therapist did a lot to convince him that he was hurting his wife by staying with her and that he should explore who he really is.

    R”L

    #1359048
    Joseph
    Participant

    Perhaps a man who would divorce his wife for trivial reasons is so wicked that his wife is better off without him?

    No. Chazal clearly say that a woman is better off with a bad husband than being divorced/single.

    Halacha places strong safeguards and stopgaps against a spouse who wishes to divorce without the consent of the other spouse, preventing him from divorcing her.

    #1359056
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Joseph,

    No. Chazal clearly say that a woman is better off with a bad husband than being divorced/single.

    You changed the wording. “Bad” could be many things. I said wicked.

    #1359058
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Enough Divorces,

    However, I hope other posters would agree that there are unfortunately many situations that would have been workable had it been addressed early on with a competent mutual couple’s therapist, but had unfortunately ended with divorce on account of an individual therapist who addressed only one side, seeing things in black and white, thereby causing an escalation of the conflict to the point of no return.

    Yes, I would agree with this.

    #1359063
    gilda
    Participant

    There is a great book out called First kill all the Marriage Therapists people say it saves allot of marriages

    #1359061
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “I agree that that is largely the case; however, would you agree that bringing up the other spouse’s wrongdoings in order to parry responsibility for one’s own wrongdoing is counterproductive and harmful to a relationship?”

    no. I was just saying that an abusive marriage should be ended regardless of what the vitim also does wrong because abuse is never acceptable. But that doesn’t mean the abuse victim is free from fault in other aspects of the marriage and if a counselor fails to address these issue with HER, her second marriage may not work out either.

    Case in point, my ‘friend’ from above ended up marrying a man who was always very passive. His first wife did not handle the stress of their difficult life situations well and was often angry and screaming. He reached a point where he couldn’t even tolerate being home with her anymore. They divorced. The ex went to counseling, he didn’t because he believed he just needed a non-abusive wife. His second marriage with the above wife did not last very long either as his passivity lent itself to other issues as well.

    So no, it isn’t something to discuss with the abuser, but it is imperative to work thru with the abuse victim before setting off on another try.

    “assuming he went to counseling to seek help improving his marriage”
    no, unfortunately he went to address his attraction to men (and dwindled attraction to his wife).That is why she was not told he was going to therapy.

    #1359096
    Joseph
    Participant

    Which raises another little discussed issue: There is a far higher divorce rate among second marriages than among first marriages. People divorcing thinking they’ll do better in round two, seriously need to rethink that assumption before getting divorced.

    #1359103
    blubluh
    Participant

    > “Have you considered the very real and strong possibility that, even if a marriage is in bad shape, a divorce
    > will make things worse for all parties?”
    I certainly do consider that possibility, though neither side of this debate is necessarily more “very real and strong” than the other. When (young?) children are included in “all parties”, things get even more complicated.

    As others noted, it may come down to the frequency, degree and longevity of “bad shape” in a marriage. I think some of the dispute in this thread is in not analyzing/comparing like cases, but cases of radically different levels of conflict.

    #1359116
    JJ2020
    Participant

    There are a lot of people who stay in abusive marriages. This is not only women. There are men also who ate abused by their wives. Maybe there should be more divorces. Maybe there is too much of stigma against it.

    #1359133
    Joseph
    Participant

    A very large problem with divorces (and I’d argue it affects a very large majority of divorces, but it is futile to dispute percentages) is that people getting divorced think divorce will make things better. When in fact it turns out that divorce makes things worse. Sometimes much worse. And other times no better.

    Especially if one has children and will, therefore, have to deal with the ex for the rest of their life. And still co-parent with them after divorce. Many wrongly assume a divorce means they will singularly parent/decide for their minor children.

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