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Massive Pennsylvania Supreme Court Defeat for Trump’s Incompetent Legal Team

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  • #1920584
    charliehall
    Participant

    The 5 Democratic Justices shot down every argument Trump’s team made. The 2 Republican Justices were arguably even worse for Trump, saying that the Court should not have even been ruling on the case. Not a single Justice was on Trump’s side.

    This means that there is no case for Trump to argue illegality in Federal Court.

    Time for the Trump cult to admit that it lost. Badly. Even with the failure of the USPS to deliver huge numbers of Biden ballots.

    #1920745
    Withheld
    Participant

    Trump may have lost but there was also fraud taking place.

    #1920757
    stevehynes
    Participant

    charliehall- you are a silly man

    #1920767
    Abba_S
    Participant

    The key problem is that although Trump has been vilified in the press and impeached in Congress for the last 4 years over 73 million still voted for him. The problem is that in the court of public opinion he hasn’t lost. It is doubtful Trump will never concede. Trump while not president will probably be blamed for all the failures.
    Can Biden and the Democrats govern and win over some of these 73 million? Party unity is the key. If the Republican can win over a handful of Congressman they can rule both houses of Congress. Biden needs Senate approval for his cabinet and also needs his party’s Progressive’s and moderate’s approval which may pose a problem.

    #1920768
    jackk
    Participant

    Trump also lost the narrative of the elections being fraudulent by firing the head of the DHS Cyber and Infrastructure Security Agency who debunked all of Trump’s claims.

    He also lost Michigan’s Wayne County when the republican’s on the election board certified the results for Biden.

    The only thing trump won yesterday was his golf game.

    By refusing to concede and allow an orderly transition he is endangering the security and safety of all Americans. That is the nature of a cult leader and not a president of the USA. The GOP allowing him to get away with this hoax shows us that they care about party over country.

    #1920837
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    ABA_S – another well stated post. I admire that. And this last post points out a huge problem. I don’t really care who ends up president because I know it was all Hashem’s doing and we will always be in His hands regardless of which puppet is attached to His strings.

    But after all the vile names I have been called by his FRUM supporters just in this forum, and how uncomfortable I was made to feel in the workplace, it was a very hostile environment there, And the way his peace loving fans seem to have converted from nasty and venomous to gloating with no let up of sick name calling (cult is the newest that actually just began *post* election thanks to 2 friends) I am wondering how they will ever embrace those who didn’t think like them.

    How will that administration guide us when we cannot even have a conversation about pancakes without someone bringing up something they hate about Trump? It is going to be very difficult, and while I am happy to let Hashem place whomever He knows to be right at my helm, I don’t see it possible to rebuild any kind of trust among those government officials who spat on me, or his supporters who continue to do so because they cannot allow me my own political or personal opinion on a candidate. (Why do you care anyway what I think of him? Am I insulting your mom?)

    It has been a sad and depressing life lesson in what intelligent humans are capable of becoming given the appropriate atmosphere and support. Even this expression of the state of things will somehow become about trump and his golf game, coronavirus victims or me being a brainless imbecile for stepping back and looking at where humanity stands at the moment.
    Your point was well stated and I anxiously await the rest of the story.

    #1920849
    Amil Zola
    Participant

    The litigation scorecard as of yesterday November 17, 25 lost 1 win, no evidence of fraud. Mind you people these are atnys who understand when they make these kinds of filings they will need proof of their claims to fraud. Yet they still file them without proof and expect to win? I don’t think it works that way.

    #1920852
    akuperma
    Participant

    Under the Constitution, state’s have sole responsibility for the selection of Electors. The only Federal issues would be if voting rights are being denied based on a poll tax, gender, race or ethnicity or age (for those over 18). States also wouldn’t be allowed to make the position hereditary (under the “republican” form of government clause. Indeed, a state theoretically could have the legislature elect the “electors”.

    Trump created a strong “originalist” bias in the Supreme Court, which will serve to limit both him, Biden and subsequent presidents. This may end being the best thing Trump will be remembered for, though he wouldn’t think so (he really wanted “red meat” conservatives, but someone was talked into “originalists” instead).

    #1920880
    se2015
    Participant

    It’s actually amazing that Trump didn’t nominate Rudy Giuliani to the Supreme Court. Instead he nominated a conservative with judicial principles. He deserves to lose just for that.

    #1920910
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Sorry, Charlie…..
    The lawyers are not incompetent. They are charged to advocate for their client, and are doing just that. They took losing cases and are losing. That does not make them incompetent. Perhaps there is a quid pro quo we don’t see. Take this case, and we’ll funnel you other legal work in the future……………

    Would I have taken such a case or client? No. But, I don’t have to answer to a boss or partners in a firm. At this stage of the game, I turn away many more new clients than I accept. After I retire, my children and their spouses (who will take over my firm) will get to decide which clients to accept. Right now, daddy rules.

    #1920950
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    CTLAWYER, We cannot make a silk purse from a sows ear. A Hungarian saying you cannot get bacon out of a dog. You cannot make a legal argument without having a basis.

    #1920954
    emes nisht sheker
    Participant

    @Syag – Congrats on another insult post insinuating that everyone that supports Biden is somehow mean. As they say, if you live in a glass house don’t throw stones. Still waiting to see a comment from you on substance, rather than your consistent implications that those who supported Biden in this election are just somehow bad people. At least be honest with what you are doing and stop playing victim. Probably asking too much.

    #1920955
    besalel
    Participant

    Abba S is right on point! I was thinking the same thing.

    OP wrote: “Time for the Trump cult to admit that it lost. Badly” – i do wish trump would stop with the stolen election nonsense BUT those people you call the “trump cult” are actually half of the population of the US and 75-80% of Jews in this country (please note, i do not consider most american jews to be jews -as they are not halachic jews nor do they have any affiliation to judaism nor do they practice any religion- hence the 75-80% number). they are not a cult. they are half of america and most of the people you associate with. they include intelligent, smart, rational, caring men and women. they are your chavrussa, your shochet, your doctor, your neighbor and your rabbi.

    Trump did not lose badly by any measure. 10,000 votes here and 10,000 there. statistically, it was a tie. it went to game 7 and biden won in extra innings. half of this country will feel like they do not have a president for the next four years just like half of this country did not have one the last four.

    OP, like many democrats and republicans alike, has a very difficult time acknowledging the strength and popularity of the other side. The failure to acknowledge the existence and legitimacy of the other side is as dangerous to the future of this country as trump’s failure to acknowledge that he lost. People like OP (and Trump, for that matter) need to stop tearing this country apart at the seams.

    #1920967
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Besalel – nice!

    #1920981
    Health
    Participant

    Oh Jackk -“Trump also lost the narrative of the elections being fraudulent by firing the head of the DHS Cyber and Infrastructure Security Agency who debunked all of Trump’s claims.”

    It seems that he wasn’t doing his JOB!
    That’s a Good Reason to Fire Someone.

    From my post on “Election Fraud”:
    “Powell (Top Woman Lawyer), Now says that there is Legal Proof that certain States that Used the Dominion Software for the Computer Tallying of Votes, is Corrupt!
    This software was used in Venezuela to make sure Maduro will always Win.
    The claim is they used this to make Sure Biden Won in those States that used this.”

    #1920983
    huju
    Participant

    stevehynes: You are a silly child.

    According to a lawyer I know who practices in New York, Trump has a reputation for not paying his legal bills. Any lawyer taking Trump’s election cases should insist on being paid in full up front. Not that that would improve the outcomes of Trump’s election cases.

    #1920994
    se2015
    Participant

    Not everyone who voted for trump is in the trump cult. Trump cult is defined by people who believe any and every conspiracy theory floated by trump or floated by other cult members, just because he said it or it serves his purpose.

    And please do not try to turn this around with an exhausting, “well you’re in a cult because you refuse to believe blah blah blah.” I could also be a figment of your imagination. But in the shared world we call reality, you need rational based evidence for your beliefs or you’re a nutcase. “I don’t have proof that Biden cheated, I just know it’s true” doesn’t cut it – not in a courtroom, not in life.

    #1920998
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Congrats on another insult post insinuating that everyone that supports Biden is somehow mean.

    ummm, no. not even for pretend.

    #1921005
    jackk
    Participant

    Besalel,
    To expand a little on what you posted and the predicament that the US finds itself in.
    This is not only a political divide.
    There are Americans who minimize Covid-19 as a major killer that demands precautions be taken. ( I am not referring to the debate on the proper precautions/shutdowns.)
    They do not trust the facts and numbers of deaths that are reported.
    Some of them even got sick and died because of carelessness.

    Many Americans get their news and opinion exclusively from media that they are comfortable with and when that media makes them uncomfortable, they just move on to the next.
    There is no resolution to this issue when all news that people disagree with is Fake.
    It has become that there is no truth or reality. Everything can be called a conspiracy.

    Can 73,000,000 people make peace with the fact the Biden won when Trump never concedes and says that the election was stolen? Answer: No.
    Could they make peace if Trump admits that Biden won fairly? Answer: Still no. Because OAN and Newsmax will never admit to it.

    #1921011
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Many Americans get their news and opinion exclusively from media that they are comfortable with and when that media makes them uncomfortable, they just move on to the next.

    I couldn’t agree with you more on this. Across all topics.

    #1921016
    emes nisht sheker
    Participant

    @jackk – Well said! If the Trump cultists here would listen to what you would say we could maybe bring folks together.

    #1921019
    Withheld
    Participant

    I have seen people using the phrase Trump cultists and the like multiple times. I can’t think any thought of reason people can call Trump a cult.
    Please explain.

    #1921021
    emes nisht sheker
    Participant

    @syag “ummm, no. not even for pretend”

    Denial is the first of five stages of grief. Hope you don’t spend the next 4 years stuck there.

    #1921022
    emes nisht sheker
    Participant

    @Withheld – when you are in a cult it is very hard to acknowledge that fact. If you ever manage to leave it, well then, you won’t need anyone explaining it to you.

    #1921025
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I don’t know exactly what your personal issues are or why you have decided to stalk me but I asked you to give me an example of some things I have said that bother you and you wouldn’t or couldn’t do it. So I’m asking you to either explain your problem, or just bug off. Your very first post on this forum was to insult me and you have not stopped. Either have an adult conversation about it, or grow up.

    #1921031
    Withheld
    Participant

    emes, if all Trump supporters are part of a cult then you have half the country part of a cult!
    is that what you are trying to suggest?

    #1921046
    se2015
    Participant

    withheld – don’t assume that all people who voted for trump support his wild conspiracy theories about fraud. It’s not half the country. Many republicans are disgusted by this.

    #1921052
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    se- absolutely. I have been saying that over and over as have many others here. But it kept falling on deaf ears so thank you for saying it. Don’t kid yourself tho, you may know that to be true, but plenty others here seem unable to parse the two.

    #1921061
    se2015
    Participant

    Syag – I haven’t seen anyone here say that every person who voted for trump is a member of the trump cult. The cult is a special category of trump supporters who believe his conspiracy theories and lies. Many people are also calling them zombies because trump ate their brains. I know that because obviously it’s true.

    #1921060
    emes nisht sheker
    Participant

    @Syag – you want an adult conversation then stop with the implied insults.

    Take your last comment, in response to se2015. se2015 said not all Trump supporters support his wild conspiracy theories, to which you respond, in effect, that you have been saying that over and over, but “others” (presumably those who dislike Trump here) are too dense to parse this.

    So, am I to understand on Nov 13 when you posted these two brief paragraphs (see below), you did not mean the second sentence?! I mean, if you are actually willing to say what Trump is saying is wild conspiracy theories, then you would seem to agree that if a Judge said stop the certification because Trump said this or that, that is a problem. Or is it, that you simply adjust every comment you make to insult the other side? When you stop with your implied insults, couched in holier than thou language, I perhaps might find your comments a bit more tolerable. Until then, I will feel free to call you out for your constant insults.

    ““If the election officials say there was little or no fraud – as they have all done – then the election officials are deemed corrupt. If the Judges reject the ‘evidence’, then the Judges are corrupt. ”

    Yes, and if the judgesaccept than they are trump’s puppets. At least be honest and acknowledge that it goes both ways.”

    #1921078
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    se – wow. not really sure where that came from….

    #1921104
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @rRebEliezer
    Actually lawyer make legal arguments without a sound legal basis regularly, they usually lose the case, or it is dismissed.
    These lawyers are assigned to file the suits and paid to advocate for the client, they don’t have to believe the client is correct.
    In many jurisdiction attorneys could be fined/sanctioned for bringing frivolous lawsuits. In this case with a sitting President (and/or his campaign) as the client, chances are no fines or sanctions will be levied.

    #1921105
    etzhar
    Participant

    Whether or not you like Trump or not is irrelevant. The questions need answering.
    Is there fraud in this election?
    Did Dominion software change the real result?
    Why were votes withheld?
    Were some votes trashed?
    how did so many Biden votes turn up in the middle of the night?
    were the people stopped from observing?
    Were votes included that arrived too late and were mainly for Biden?
    If you dont get these questions answered, the election means nothing.

    #1921143
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @etzhar

    Is there fraud in this election?

    Maybe. Unlikely to be more than any other election. And certainly not enough to swing the vote in any state.

    Did Dominion software change the real result?

    No evidence.

    Why were votes withheld?

    Only a small handful were caught in red tape. Still not enough to swing a state

    Were some votes trashed?

    No

    how did so many Biden votes turn up in the middle of the night?

    Not many, if any turned up at all

    were the people stopped from observing?

    No

    Were votes included that arrived too late and were mainly for Biden?

    Not in any statistically significant increase over the other mail in ballots.

    If you dont get these questions answered, the election means nothing.

    Well then there you go. I guess the election means something now.

    #1921150
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Syag,

    You can’t let people (trolls?) get to you, it’s easier to ignore them and eventually they go away on their own (I did it and I think it worked) I never replied to the person outright

    #1921152
    Health
    Participant

    etzhar -“Is there fraud in this election?”

    Yes. They just arrested 2 guys in Cal. for Fraud with Homeless Voting.

    “Did Dominion software change the real result?”

    Well if you think that Venezuelans think that Maduro should be President for life, then no.
    But if you think that’s Not the way it should be, then using this Software could Very Well Change all or some States Election Results.

    “Why were votes withheld?”
    IDK.

    “Were votes included that arrived too late and were mainly for Biden?
    how did so many Biden votes turn up in the middle of the night?”

    These 2 – I put together.
    Some places Stopped Counting for awhile & then lo & behold, when they started again it was mainly, if not all, Biden.

    “Were some votes trashed?”
    IDK.

    “were the people stopped from observing?”

    That’s a matter of definition:
    In Pa. as long as they were in the room.
    In Mi. as long as they were there behind closed Doors.
    Hopefully SCOTUS Will knock some Sense into these State Courts. (But I don’t guarantee Anything.)

    #1921158
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    I took a mental health break for a day or two hoping that even the few stubborn Trumkopf voices would finally realize the absolute insanity of what they were saying in the face of what are now roughly 20-25 adverse court decisions from both Republican and Democratic-appointed judges. The coup de grace’ was yesterday’s circus presented in Federal District Court in Pennsylvania by Rudy the Clown.
    The Judge wisely allowed Rudy to rant for nearly 40 minutes on conspiracy theories at a national and global level without once ever presenting specific evidence of “fraud”. Finally, the judge begin asking some pointed legal questions about which standard of evidence should apply. The “normal one” responded Rudy, seemingly unable to understand the Judge’s question. Then he claimed that the Trump election observers were denied the “opacity” they were constituionally entitled to. When the Judge inquired whether he really meant “opacity” Rudy affirmed only to be call it “a big word” when the Judge explained it meant exactly the opposite of what he meant. Finally, when an exasperated Judge pushed Rudy to provide evidence to support his “fraud” allegations under statute, Rudy chastised the jduge for focusing on the documents filed by the Trump team rather than his verbal exposition in the courtroom. Once Rudy acknowledged there was no evidence of fraud, he cancelled tomorrow’s evidentiary hearing and seems prepared to rule by the end of the week.

    #1921160
    Health
    Participant

    GH -“Once Rudy acknowledged there was no evidence of fraud, he cancelled tomorrow’s evidentiary hearing and seems prepared to rule by the end of the week.”

    Some people just don’t get it.
    Rudy is playing with you Libs.
    Because he wants to go as Quickly to SCOTUS – He needs to Lose Cases.
    There is tons of Fraud.
    I stopped watching the Fake News Media.
    I found a real one called NTD.
    They just had a interview from an Observer in Mi.
    The guy said they kept e/o away and kept Screaming Covid19.
    What this guy did was – at the beginning most of the Votes were Trump.
    Then when they started to keep e/o away – he used his walker to still be close enough to see – all the Votes – I mean ALL the Votes were for Biden. Not One Circled in For any other Candidate.
    Trump is the Winner.
    No one is going to Let the DemonCrats Steal this Election!

    #1921192
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Health: There is something called Rule 11 under the Federal Rules of Procedure. An attorney has an obligation to affirm the accuracy/veracity of any reps he makes in a filing. Rudy can play word games at a press conference held outside an adult book store in suburban Philly…..not in a federal district courtroom. If you really think SCOTUS would take an appeal of this case, you need to take a refresher course in Con law and appellate procedure. I doubt that the 3d Cir would take it seriously much less SCOTUS.

    #1921202
    se2015
    Participant

    Health – I learned today that I can admire something about Giuliani. If his legal strategy is to sit on his evidence and lose his way up to the Supreme Court, while at the same time convincing his boss that he’s worth $20,000 a day, that is admirable chutzpah.

    #1921319
    Health
    Participant

    GH -“Health: There is something called Rule 11 under the Federal Rules of Procedure. An attorney has an obligation to affirm the accuracy/veracity of any reps he makes in a filing.”

    I’m Not a lawyer, but I personally have taken a case to the 3rd circuit & then to SCOTUS.
    Do you really think that Rudy doesn’t know Feds Rule of Procedure?!?
    He was a US Attorney.
    I don’t follow these cases because I really don’t care who wins.
    But one thing I do know that Rudy was just there in the court, but all the evidence was written in the Brief.
    And it was done by other Lawyers, who weren’t present in Court.

    #1921379
    charliehall
    Participant

    “he really wanted “red meat” conservatives, but someone was talked into “originalists” instead”

    Gorsuch isn’t an originalist, he is a textualist. As a result, it is now illegal for you to fire a gay person from your business because you don’t like the fact that he is gay. There is no question that the authors of the Civil Right Act did not have that in mind but that the text of the law clearly supports Gorsuch’s interpretation. Trump i gave gays their biggest legal victory ever — this is a much bigger deal than the marriage issue because it directly affects non-gay business owners.

    #1921381
    charliehall
    Participant

    “Indeed, a state theoretically could have the legislature elect the “electors”.”

    Not theoretically, really. But the last time a state did this was 1860. And the law would have had to be changed prior to election day. And the legislators who approved such a change would get voted out of office.

    #1921382
    charliehall
    Participant

    “It’s actually amazing that Trump didn’t nominate Rudy Giuliani to the Supreme Court.”

    Giuliani showed that didn’t even know what “strict scrutiny” or “rational basis” are. Those are the basis of constitutional law, which is most of what the Supreme Court does.

    #1921388
    charliehall
    Participant

    “statistically, it was a tie”

    About 64,000 votes in the right places would have re-elected Trump.

    About 79,000 votes in the right places would have elected Hillary Clinton.

    About 36,000 votes in the right places would have elected John Kerry.

    But close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

    #1921389
    charliehall
    Participant

    “That does not make them incompetent”

    Would you at least agree that Giuliani is incompetent?

    #1921391
    charliehall
    Participant

    “The claim is they used this to make Sure Biden Won in those States that used this.”

    Dominion equipment was used in ten states that Trump won.

    #1921398
    charliehall
    Participant

    “Some places Stopped Counting for awhile & then lo & behold, when they started again it was mainly, if not all, Biden.”

    No stop of counting. The reason for the late votes being mostly Biden was that Stupid Trump ordered his supporters not to vote by mail, and Stupid Trump supporters listened. That is a characteristic of a cult. In person votes often get reported first. The Georgia Secretary of State, a Trump supporting Republican, has stated that Trump telling his people not to vote by mail depressed Republican turnout and lost Trump the state. It is also likely that that forced a second US Senate runoff and helped Dems flip a seat in the US House of Representatives — their only flip of a Republican seat not caused by redistricting.

    Hopefully Trump’s people will continue

    #1921392
    charliehall
    Participant

    “They just arrested 2 guys in Cal. for Fraud with Homeless Voting.”

    That is a real case of attempted fraud, albeit targeting a local nonpartisan election, not the Presidential election. But no votes ended up being cast because they were caught. It involved absentee ballot applications from people who were mentally incompetent and therefore not qualified to vote. But even had they managed to vote, the few thousand votes are roundoff error compared to Biden’s five million vote margin in California.

    #1921404
    charliehall
    Participant

    “Because he wants to go as Quickly to SCOTUS – He needs to Lose Cases.
    There is tons of Fraud.”

    Rudy hasn’t presented any evidence of fraud.

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