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FULL DISCLOSURE:
I did NOT write this article or any part of it.
I do NOT know who wrote this letter.I just copied it from www (dot) matzav (dot) com.
_________________________________________
ARTICLE TITLED:
“The Attraction of Golus & The Spiritual Failure of the Meraglim”DATE: 2025 June 19
SOURCE: www (dot) matzav (dot) com
__________________________________________For two thousand years, Judaism in Golus
has been centered on Torah and tefillah.
That was all we had.
And we built a beautiful world of ruchniyus —
yeshivos, gedolim, sifrei Torah, deep learning, powerful tefillos.But now we are being asked to shift gears.
For anyone with open eyes and heart its obvious that the Geulah is here.
But for many, the responsibility and risk that comes along with that, are terrifying.If the Golus is over, then we need to enter Eretz Yisroel,
and build cities, create a government, defend borders,
establish sovereignty, and prepare for a real Beis HaMikdash
— one made of stone and wood and labor.And just like the Meraglim, today, we hesitate.
It’s safer in the Beis Medrash. It’s safer in exile-mode.
It’s spiritually cleaner to stay away from politics,
from armies, from national responsibility.So we say: “We’re still in Golus.”
Because if we’re still in Golus, we are patur.
No need for Korban Pesach.
No need for Milchemes Mitzvah.
No need for Aliyah.
We don’t need to take the risk and we can justify it.But that mindset — even if well-intentioned
— is the exact mistake of the Meraglim.__________________________________________
PERSONAL COMMENT:If I remember correctly, the meraglim were all
great tzaddikim, who did not want to enter
Eretz Yisrael because fighting to conquer
Eretz Yisrael would have interrupted
their full-time Torah-study.In our times, the Chareidim are big tzaddikim,
who do not want to fight to defend Eretz Yisrael
because that would interrupt their full-time Torah-study.How much difference is there,
between the meraglim and the Chareidim?The Hesder Yeshivah Jews, who spend half their time
learning Torah and half their time fighting to defend Eretz Yisrael,
they are practicing the correct Derech HaTorah.The Chareidim who do not want to fight to defend Eretz Yisrael
because that would interrupt their full-time Torah-study,
they are similar to the meraglim (Rachmana Latzlan).@SQUARE_ROOT:
Why do you pollute these boards with Zionist nonsense?
Oh; because Zionism is an idol, and idolatry is not rational.Regarding the silly piece you quoted:
No, the galus is not over until Mashiach comes. As of this writing, it decidedly – and sadly – has not yet ended. It has zero to do with the “mindset of the meraglim” but rather its opposite which is following the Torah.Regarding your personal comment:
No, you do not remember correctly. The meraglim told the people that we are not strong enough to conquer the land and that even G-d cannot do so (whether due to their sins or whatever other reason). Similarly, liHavdil, the Zionists lie (see their heretical “Jerusalem Program”) that the Jewish people cannot continue to exist without a strong and secure “State” of “Israel”.As well, you mischaracterized both the Chareidim and, liHavdil, the Hesder.
First, Torah study is the ultimate protection, so it would be foolish for them to abandon Torah study and take up weapons.
Second, the main issue preventing the chareidim from fighting in the Zionist army is that Zionism and its army are shmad.
Finally, Rav Elchonon Wasserman and other gedolim noted that “Religious Zionism” is religion and idolatry biShituf.
So, “Hesder Jews”, who practice the idolatrous and heretical “Religious Zionism”, and also allow themselves to be shmaded in the Zionist army, are obviously not practicing the “correct Derech HaTorah”. The “correct Derech HaTorah” is to remain Jews who serve only G-d, not Jews who also worship the Zionist idol and also not to allow themselves to be shmaded in the Zionist army.This should all be plain and simple to all Jews but the idol and its immense propaganda unfortunately confuses people.
I also heard that the rebbes amount of connection to HKBH or the attachment to Torah is proportional with the rebbes need to impart Torah to his talmidim. So being a rebbe you get a gift of Torah bec it’s necessary to impart to your talmidim. The spies saw that moving from the midbar to EY would disrupt that and they would no longer be the spiritual leaders of their tribes and lose their connection.
In your example tho I see it more like when the Jewish people would go to war and there were something like 10000 warriors 10000 helpers and 10000 learning and davening for the warriors.
In that case the learners are doing their job similar to but of course less moser nefesh as compared to the warriors.
Which apikoros wrote this, that we are no longer in golus and it has ended?
Did Theodore Herzl end the golus? Was David Ben-Gurion the Moshiach?
@Square_Root – you and I may believe this, but the Yeshivish world and its leaders will twist themselves into pretzels to come up with reasons as to why they, in fact, are right. Good luck trying to convince them – “einayim lahem – v’lo yir’u”.
an Israeli Yid
The reason not to join the Israeli army is because the decisions are made by secular politicians, lawmakers and judges, a Torah Jew has no right to place his life in the hands of secular decision makers who send soldiers to die en masse instead of carpet bombing from the air. All other reasons and discussions are mere attempts to distract attention from the plain and simple truth. In the army of a genuine Malchus Yisroel Torah Jews will be the first to join like Matisyahu Kohen Gadol and his sons.
yes were still in golus, unless i somehow missed eliyahu
we are in Golus and we know it….cut out the ism’s and ist’s….doesn’t exist……period.
“So, “Hesder Jews”, who practice the idolatrous and heretical “Religious Zionism”, and also allow themselves to be shmaded in the Zionist army, are obviously not practicing the “correct Derech HaTorah”. The “correct Derech HaTorah” is to remain Jews who serve only G-d, not Jews who also worship the Zionist idol and also not to allow themselves to be shmaded in the Zionist army.”
Again, you will answer HKB”H for slandering an entire community of Orthodox Jews.
You just don’t get it, and you never will.
anIsraeliZionist:
It is, of course, the Zionist idolaters who twist themselves into pretzels to distort and remove from the Torah in favor of their Zionist idol.Square_Root said – How much difference is there, between the meraglim and the Chareidim?
Um, maybe because at the time of the Meraglim Hashem told us through Moshe Rabbeinu to go conquer Eretz Yisroel, and they (for whatever reason) refused? So, unless you claim to have a Navi who commands us in Hashem’s name to all go to Eretz Yisroel (and join the army, or whatever you are trying to equate here), there is no שייכות whatsoever to your comparison. Actually, the Chareidim are the ones who (at least try to) listen to Gedolei Yisroel, whereas the Meraglim did the opposite… You don’t seem to get the idea that this is not a matter of convenience, or taking the easy way out. If it WAS so much easier and more convenient, so let any Chiloni who doesn’t feel like going to the Army join a Yeshiva… Who is stopping them? The very simple answer is as the Chovos Halevavos says – the battle against the Yetzer Hara is longer and more difficult than any physical war.
Ujm you clearly don’t see the world. Galus _is_ ending you want to stay in it forever clearly. Hold so strong to your ideals of fear and judgment. Relax. Maybe galus isn’t just. A place but also a state of mind
I hear alot of my way or the highway mentality. There’s these kind of jews and those kind of Jews. Ye ye your way is “only” way. No it’s not everyone has different ways of doing things. If it doesn’t go against my morality there’s no one right way only different traditions. Y’all have to stop being so stuck in a stubborn box
ZSK:
Take it up with Rav Elchonon Wasserman and all the other gedolim who stated this over the decades.
You can also take it up with the “Religious Zionist” rabbis who can tell you how their boys come crying to them over the terrible nisyonos the Zionists intentionally put these boys through in their shmad army.HaTorah haZo lo sihei muchlefes.
SQUARE_ROOT:
This nonsense was already addressed. Please stop posting nonsense and stop repeating the same.When will Square Root and his fellow travelers start running around with yellow flags?
It’s silly how Square Root just states his imaginary assumptions as facts. Nobody is fooled.
If you want to go that route, I could claim that the religious Zionists are like the ma’afilim.Forget about Zionism. It was a political movement that is irrelevant nowadays. What we have is a matzav. While I’ve may disagree as to if the modern State was originally conceived in sin or as a miraculous redemption of our people after the horrors of the Shoah. אלו ואילו. It is irrelevant now. What we have now is a matzav that the majority of affiliated Jews live in Eretz HaKodesh and we need to make it work using the כלים the Aibishte gave us. Our חכמה, בינה, ודעת. We have to make it work because there is no plan B. We need parnassa, security, and for those who wish, to study Torah. In order to accomplish these goals we need to all work together. We need to help one another in the way they need the help. If my wife is stressing out with the kids, my offer to go to mikveh and daven an extra long Maariv is not the help she is looking for at this moment. We all need to defend our country. We all need to be able to work and support large families בכבוד.
As far as galus….it is a location not a mindset. I’m not a big Tanach person but I couldn’t find a place that galus meant anything but a place. Later, much later, in the גולה, the idea was shifted to a metaphysical. Either you are in Eretz HaKodesh or you are in galus. Unfortunately, for many that mindset holds back growth.
As far as Geula… It happens when it happens… I know this is controversial but that has been our experience. I’m sure there were those who challenged Moshe because it was 210 not 400. Since God controls the Geula, He can do it any way he pleases. Chutzpa to not accept the gift of geula. I’m sure there were those who challenged the geula in times of Ezra because those who left the galus were a bunch of intermarried amaratzim. No thank you, that is not how Yeshayu or Yirmiyahu fortold. We were exilied because of sin, how can redemption be by sinners? The majority stayed in Bavel.
There are volumes of chazal, rishonim and modern Rabbanim who wrote exactly how Mashiach will come and how it should be. They calculated exactly 400 years, but God gets to decide וחשב את הקץ. At each previous geula those accepted what was clearly in front of their eyes and those who couldn’t let the dissonance between what they believed the way geula should be to the reality of how it actually transpired.
I don’t know the r right answer, but I’m willing to place my faith in God that he can tinker with the rules and experience the Geula as He intends and not as others would portend from to do. The King makes the rules and his subjects follow. If the king of kings decides to end galus in 1948, He can. If he decides to push it off for another 2000 years, he can as well.
Your worldly calculations are not relevant at the beis din shall maala.
In conclusion: Galus is a physical space. Thinking like a גלותי can be a retarded mindset that limits growth of our communities and mosdos@square root
the RZ tell their rabanim what to say
whereas the haredim listen to their rabanim
square root does not know what he is talking about
and should concentrate on his beki’ut in artscroll biographies , his only strong point.
.
.
.Hakatan,
You do know that Rav Wasserman’s children and grandchildren became Zionists after WW2. His grandson who was named after him went to the Yeshiva of Flatbush.You, and others, keep repeating that Torah study is our protection. Then how do you explain a thousand years of pogroms, massacres ( Crusaders, cossacks, blood labels etc ) and, of course , the Holocaust?
Why are you guys even fighting about this how is it even relevant to real life
YYA > Actually, the Chareidim are the ones who (at least try to) listen to Gedolei Yisroel, whereas the Meraglim did the opposite
Neither meraglim nor Yehoshua & Kalev listened or not listened to gedolim. They were sent by Moshe on a mission and they approached that mission differently. They all were responsible for their own behavior, not the way they listened. One exception – Kalev did listen – he listened to Avos by going to Hevron. As it came up in my recent class. Yehoshua and Kalev represent two Jewish tradition. Yehoshua follows Moshe and his following revelation, and Kalev following Avos, esp Avraham, in standing up for emes (Avraham for Hashem in general, and supporting people in trouble, Kalev – for EY).
Bayit: Eretz Yisroel is in Golus today.
Golus only ends when Moshiach comes.
HaKatan: “HaTorah haZo lo sihei muchlefes.” You did that with the Rabbonim you worship like Catholics worship G-d via the Pope, also known as “Gadolatry”.
I am also not going to take it up with Rabbonim who died nearly 100 years ago. I will, however, take umbrage with you, who is a Sonei Yisrael and deserve to be treated as such.
Yankel: “the RZ tell their rabanim what to say”. That’s unfair. The same could be said about Charedi Rabbonim who sign whatever Askanim place before them (yes, that actually happens).
Bayot baitar. Finally someone saying it. Redemption writings were written in very cryptic symbolic tone that only wnem the timing comes And the plan unfolds only then prophecy is understood. Until then it’s all speculation.
anonymous,
katan holds that a thousand years of pogroms, massacres ( Crusaders, cossacks, blood labels etc ) and, of course , the Holocaust and even the Churban were all caused by Zionism. He also believes that the evil of Zionism is stronger than Torah.
@Bayit Beitar:
No, unfortunately, we cannot “forget about Zionism” Of course, Zionism is not, as you claim, “a political movement that is irrelevant nowadays” but rather an idolatry and heresy that is by very far the greatest rebellion against G-d on the planet, which has shmaded and continues to shmad R”L generations of Jews, especially those inside its putative “State”. Zionism is nothing less than a (very anti-Torah) complete redefinition of Judaism and Jew, with lots of money (from its “State” and elsewhere) to propagandize the same to hapless Jews.
@ZSK:
So, in addition to having no answer, you also added the heresy of “mai ahanu lei rabbanan”? And it’s not only “Rabbanim who died nearly 100 years ago”; it’s Rav Shach and others who lived much more recently, as well as LBC”L those alive today like Rav Moshe Sternbuch and others. Your labeling of me as a “sonei Yisrael” is, of course, false; true to Zionist form, it is the wicked Zionists and their supporters who would fit that rubric as they try to shut down our yeshivos and shuls in the Zionist paradise to force the Jews there to be shmaded in the Zionist army and impoverish our brethren there and forbid them from working for years as long as they refuse to be shmaded in the Zionist army. That’s true Sinas Yisrael, though a “Religious Zionist” might not recognize the Torah’s definition of sinas Yisrael due to their idol of Zionism and instead, like you, apply that to those who wish good upon Jews instead of to the wicked Zionists who are the greatest sonei Yisrael by far.@AAQ:
The “gedolim” at the time were essentially Moshe Rabbeinu and Aharon haKohen, though his instructions were straight from Hashem rather than derived from Torah knowledge. Moshe Rabbeinu gave the meraglim specific instructions, which most of them did not follow. If memory serves, the Zera Shimshon points out the halacha that if 2 people mutually agree on criteria for an item then those criteria become binding. Moshe Rabbeinu agreed with them on specific conditions about the land because he knew that the land would pass those conditions with flying colors. But the meraglim complained about other things on which they had not agreed, which went against their agreement. So, yes, while chareidim try to listen to gedolei Yisrael, the meraglim did indeed do the opposite.
@anonymous Jew
The enormous propaganda of Zionism, especially post-War, unfortunately fooled many. That is totally irrelevant to the undisputed truth of Rav Wasserman’s writings. Regarding Torah study protecting and comparing that to tragedies that happened in our history, you can ask your LOR for more on that. One general answer is that Torah study indeed protects, but a time of din (strict judgement) has a very different calculus than in normal times. During that type of period, it takes very special merits to be saved. (Regarding the Holocaust specifically, the answer also includes the evils of the Zionists. The wicked Zionists interfered with Hashem’s plan to save Jews by, for example, lobbying governments against allowing in Jews to their countries, which closed off escape routes that Hashem had setup to be open for Jews.)@sqaureroot & @israeliyid
I don’t get what your doing on this forum.
This forum was made for the yeshiva world as you may be able to guess by the name….
The yehuda world follows their gedolim and you won’t convince anyone otherwise on this forum even if you say things to the point (which you usually dont)
There are plenty of news sights NOT chareidi, go enjoy them. What’s the point of posting these comments (which you do quite often)? Is it cause youre bored? You enjoy machlokes? I would love an explanation.@zsk
Why are you only picking on hakatan? Square root said that the entire chareidi world is like the meraglim. That’s also “slandering an entire community of Orthodox Jews.”@square root
1st of all, the chareidim don’t want to join the army not just cause of bitul Torah but other reasons as well some of which have been mentioned above.
2nd of all, there’s an obvious difference between the meraglim and the chareidim (even according to that article you brought, which may not be emes anyway-definitelythe part about the golus being over is shtuyot, moshiach didn’t come yet, even if preparationsfor the geulah may have started)
The meraglim spoke l”H on Ey, and convinced klall yisroel not to want to go in, against the ratzon hashem, the chareidim follow their gedolim like it says in the torah which is the ratzon hashem. So obviously that’s a ridiculous comparison….GadolHadofi:
Why do you claim silly things in other people’s names?
I never wrote that the churban and other tragedies pre-Zionism were caused by Zionism.You might be confusing that the sages bring down that the post-churban mass destruction of Jews at Beisar (“Beitar”) was caused by a violation of the oaths, the same oaths that Zionism violates. So, the churban and all the rest of the pre-Zionism tragedies, of course, were not caused by Zionism. But, like Beisar and Zionism, there certainly could indeed have been other tragedies that were caused by violating the oaths.
Regarding the Holocaust (specifically) and Zionism, this is a matter of historical record, of course, and the Zionists both admit this and that they would not do anything differently if given a do-over. As the Zionists have stated, better Zionism and no State versus a State with no Zionism, and during the Holocaust, “A cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews of Europe” and on and on. And, to clarify the timeline of both, in case the dofi is getting in the way: Zionism was founded fin-de-sicle (late 1800s). The Holocaust happened almost a half-century later. That logic isn’t at all complicated.
> undisputed truth of Rav Wasserman’s writings.
I know popularity is not a sign of truth, but it is important to keep it in mind to see whether anyone is interested in certain writings. Because if nobody is, it means this school of thought did not convince many people.
With that caveat in mind, I looked up several Rabbis popularity in web search in Israel and in US for last 20 and 5 years. Adin Steinsaltz more popular than Rav Shach who is more popular than Chofetz Chaim who is more popular than R Kook who is way more popular than R Wasserman who shows at almost zero. Again, this is noto to evaluate, H’Sh value of someone’s learning, but just to note that almost nobody is looking up R Wasserman’s writings in general.
This correlates with what I asked some time ago – some talmidei chachomim are for some reason quoted for their political positions but rarely mentioned in Torah discussions in general, as if they are politicians. The fault is of course in those who quote selectively.
JustThink> This forum was made for the yeshiva world … There are plenty of news sights NOT chareidi, go enjoy them.
I understand your sentiment, but the word “yeshiva” is not reserved for specific groups of people. Netziv headed a small yeshiva in far-away Belorus – and he was sympathetic to settlers of EY. Ohr Sameach also – and he managed to get a yeshiva named after him. R Soloveitchik combined what was previously unthinkable – yeshiva & university in one institution – and even those who strongly disagreed with him, considered him a Talmid Chochom.
Something I wanted to discuss in another thread, but here it goes – Avoda Zara 4 discusses that rega of punishment appears in first 3 hours of the day – of Torah learning rather than next 3 hours of din – because Torah is Emes and this is stricter than just “din” – so Emes is important for Yeshiva.
JustThink > Why are you only picking on hakatan? Square root said
So, can we agree that both sentiments are inappropriate?
Thank you Bayit Beitar.
I’m so sick of hearing ” Oy we’re in golus….were in golus!
Its such a mockery.
Its because the golus is so sweet and fun and lucrative and people have a hard time leaving it and then sometimes things in thier sweet haven go haywire and they cry out golus golus!! lets get real. Eretz Yisrael is geographically NOT golus. So if you are here you are NOT in golus. The Geula is on its way and we are in the throes of labor pains – as Rav Shtrenbuch said – and many others. Golus is being in Europe during WW2 and having no where to go! Thats golus! But throwing a tantrum because you discovered that your goldene medina is only gold plated and the plating is rubbing off and then crying wolf will get you no sympathy! If its so rough in “golus” then come home. But no, no way. At “home” there is this problem and that problem and “imposters ” are squatting in my home (secular zionists) and rockers are flying and its scary – so I’m not going there. Well, you guys in “golus” may be in for a very unpleasant surprise! You expect to come “home” after its completely “renovated”??? Well it doesnt work like that. Mom & Pop (Hashem – who is also zachar and also Nekaiva) is sending us messages thru out neighbors that we need your help with the “renovations” – to build strong Torah Communities in EY but we are systematically totally ignoring those messages so they are getting louder . Like NYED – so you fight that and win so Hashem sends Mamdani and you all move to Florida but fail to read the handwrtiing on the wall. Bottom line – The story about the little boy who cried golus didnt end very well. Come home and take your part in the return to Tzion. Send representatives to build elementary schools, high schools, bais Yaakovs, Mesivtas, proper employment oppurtunities, housing etc. All of the foundations are in place- you just need to come and do it! People mamash by the toil of their brow have opened beautiful mosdos that far surpas your mosdos in your delusional golus and you just need to copy. They ve done all the hard work – fought thru the red tape etc. And all the shtusim about Zionist Avodah Zara is so funny it hurts. כל הפוסל בממומו פוסל chazal explicity have taught us that a person who resides out side of EY is af if he is an idolater so pleas ecut the ridiculousness. At least admit the truth – ITs hard to leave the comfortable golus and Hashem will help!!Just think – If you read HaKatan’s history, you will see that he does nothing but slander the entire Religious Zionist community any chance he gets. It’s a constant thing with him.
Square Root isn’t totally wrong, most unfortunately. I wish he were, but he isn’t.
I highly suggest you read his post history before assuming I’m picking on anyone
@JustThink – would you prefer an echo chamber? At least when I was younger, we were taught to debate topics in Torah and Halacha, bringing in Pesukim, Memros, Gemara, Rishonim , and Achronim – and logic – to support our position – think about the way you learned in Beis Medrash back when you were in Yeshiva. At least when I was younger, we were allowed – even encouraged – to question our Rabei’im’s positions, though obviously respectfully.
If you’ve read my comments over time, you’ll recognize that that’s what I do here. My views may be in the minority on this forum, but I base them on classic Halachic and Hashkafic sources. I’d have thought that ones raised on the classic shakla v’tarya of Gemara would be able to respond on point, rather that simply saying the equivalent of “well, I outsourced by thinking ability to Gadol X from 100 years ago and he said Y – so you must be wrong”. Perhaps Gadol Y’s position is still relevant, perhaps not – but to discuss it and its reasoning is completely legitimate.
The Yeshiva world in general sould welcome debate and discussion, as is classic in Yeshivos throughout the world. Mindless groupthink is not part of the tradition of our great Yeshivos – and should not be part of “The Yeshiva World” either. That’s why I post – to make people think.
an Israeli Yid
No, I have not added any such heresy. Rabbonim are not gods, they certainly are not HKB”H Himself, although you may think they are like the Pope (certainly Chassidim behave as such). I’ve responded to you repeatedly, but like usual, either you’re acting in bad faith or your reading comprehension level is considerably lower than I thought, even for an Appalachian Transcarpathian like yourself. To clarify again, because I’m not going to let you claim שתיקה כהודאה:
1) Charedim have deified Rabbis (see Artscroll hagiographies as blatant examples of that) to the point of the Charedi community replacing the Torah with something else entirely, that being Rabbinic edict and deification of Rabbonim, which beyond being legally unacceptable by Halakhic standards (an actual Bais Din is required for a Gezera or Takana, not what currently occurs in Israel or the Aguda, and certainly not what gets slapped on Pashkevilim) (2) more often than not is not guided by Rabbonim, but by bad actors – also known as Askanim – who provide partial or false information for their own personal gain. This is a known thing, and it is unfortunately only the Charedim who don’t see it or the harm it brings. I lament this state of affairs where I am forced to question what Rabbonim say because it’s simply unconscionable that Rabbonim would actually sign or utter such things; the fact that you don’t get that is very telling.
Sinas Yisrael is partially what Yankel Berel said – מפקיר דמם של ישראל, which you are guilty of. Sinas Yisrael is accusing an entire community of essentially being an עיר הנדחת, which beyond being completely and utterly false, is acccusing a community of acting in a manner liable for capital punishment, which you’re also guilty of. Sinas Yisrael is taking every single government handout possible and giving nothing material in return, such as paying taxes and working rather than using תורתינו הקדושה כקרדום לחפור בו. Sinas Yisrael is saying “Your children have to die protecting me, but my children will not die protecting you and yours”.
On the other hand, Sinas Yisrael is not expecting the Charedi community to pull its weight. Do I need to quote Moshe Rabbeinu’s statement to Reuven, Gan and half of Menashe to you? Only Chilonim want to shut down Yeshivos. The RZ community absolutely does not want that, and you declaring such is מוציא שם רע, מוציא לעז, רכילות and לשון הרע, and there certainly is no תועלת in such. What the RZ community wants is for the Charedi community to stop the התנשאות והתנהגות של גאווה toward everyone else and show they actually care. Without minimizing what the Charedi community has done during the last war, more needed to be done, and that more is specifically serving in the army and giving the RZ community a chance to rest.
Again, I have never said the IDF is perfect. However, the IDF has tried gone far out of its way to create frameworks for Charedim to stay Charedi in the army. The army lets people skip early morning lineups to daven, they bring in Rabbonim to speak (which Chilonim freak out about for no reason other than their total ignorance and שנאת תורה הקדושה), there is maximum effort to meet Kashrus standards. Meanwhile, it’s patently obvious that anyone Charedi who goes OTD while in the army already wanted to do so and is using the IDF as an excuse. But of course, you’ll just use the No True Scotsman fallacy to declare any Charedi person who has served to not truly be Charedi.
Lastly, for the millionth time: RZ does not worship the State as an idol. Period. The fact that you can’t see that reflects entirely on you.
@ SR
You and HaKatan seem to have quite a bit in common. But I guess that’s inevitable. Ze L’Umat Ze…
Eretz Yisroel is in Golus. Anyone who claims otherwise is an apikorus. Theodore Herzl did not end golus and David Ben-Gurion was not Moshiach.
katan,
“Zionism was founded fin-de-sicle (late 1800s). The Holocaust happened almost a half-century later. That logic isn’t at all complicated.”
So it’s clear to you that despite the half century gap, the creation of Zionism caused the Holocaust? Please explain precisely how that happened and why the Nazis yms”h created their Final Solution in response to it.
This particular canard that you love rehashing is the infantile charedi response to the inconvenient fact that their leadership discouraged leaving Europe until it was too late to do so. You can keep parroting it until you believe it but it’s still a lie.
@ujm – If you think the RZ community believes any of that, you’re as guilty as HaKatan.
GadolHadofi:
No. First of all, it is not a half-century “gap”. Zionism began a half-century before and increased its activities from then on. So, of course, there is no “gap”. You should have known and acknowledged that, rather than implicitly mocking.Regarding the Zionists both causing and then contributing to the Holocaust, including announcing a boycott *in the name of world Jewry* (and the Zionists didn’t yet even have their pseudo-State) of Germany, which enraged Hitler YM”Sh to the point where he stated then “Now I will finish them”, and the wicked Zionists both actively and passively sabotaging rescue efforts of Jews including lobbying governments against allowing Jews into their countries, not to mention Kastner (mis)leading a million Jews of Hungary to their murderous deaths in the Nazi gas chambers, that is all historical record and fact, also mentioned by various gedolim.
There is also the spiritual/religious aspect of it in that Zionism is a mass assimilation/shmad movement, which is inherently a cause of antisemitism. And Zionism flagrantly violates the oaths, which is a cause of “ani mattir es bisarchem…”, which is essentially what happened during the Holocaust – on a horrific and never-before seen scale.
Feel free to look all this up for yourself. It’s not a secret, except in the Zionist paradise where the Zionists lie and propagandize about it to their citizens there.
The odious canard that you repeated against the gedolim is the propagandist Zionist response to the above facts. Also, Hitler YM”Sh was poised to invade Palestine, and the danger there was very real. So, even from a purely secular perspective, it would have made no sense to go to Palestine from Europe then. The Brisker Rav left Europe for Palestine specifically because of spiritual safety concerns in Europe despite the greater physical safety concerns in Palestine.
Your mockery, especially when you are both wrong and repeating Zionist propaganda against our Torah sages, is appalling.
@ZSK:
Wrong. And please stop denigrating people here.
The Religious Zionists, from at least as far back as Rabbi Kook’s son, believe that the redemption is currently happening and that it no longer depends on schar viOnesh.ZSK: I have no idea what you are talking about. I made a general comment. I have no idea what the RZ folks believe our disbelieve.
GHadofi: Thank you for openly clarifying that you are not Chareidi. (And that you despise Chareidim; though this second point is peripheral.)
It puts your entire history of (and future) posts and comments all into perspective.
(Now you may go on about the all the wives and children…)
ujm :
Eretz Yisroel is in Golus. Anyone who claims otherwise is an apikorus. Theodore Herzl did not end golus and David Ben-Gurion was not Moshiach.seems that ujm is qualified to argue with one of our gdolei hador , Steipler in karyaneh de’igrata vol 1 clearly writes that one who subscribes to athalta dige’uola ideology ,
while wrong , is not an apikorus.
.
.@ UJM
Does it feel good to pound a straw man? Its the intellectual equivalent of pounding on a punching bag. You can win every fight without having to go toe to toe with an actual opponent.
@ ZSK
You wrote: “Charedim have deified Rabbis (see Artscroll hagiographies as blatant examples of that) to the point of the Charedi community replacing the Torah with something else entirely.”
It’s not good form to paint the entire chareidi community as “deifying rabbis”. HaRav Aaron Feldman devotes a chapter in his book “Eye of The Storm” to the problem with how Gedolim Biographies are presented. Publishers will publish what sells and what sells is larger then life. the larger, the better. That being said don’t confuse reverence for deification.
You wrote: An actual Bais Din is required for a Gezera or Takana, not what currently occurs in Israel or the Aguda, and certainly not what gets slapped on Pashkevilim)
What would be an example of such a Gezera or Takana enacted by recognized Gedolei Yisroel?
Pashkevilim are dvarim betailim, usually not worth the paper they are written on. Unfortunately, today the means to manipulate public opinion has gone far beyond pashkavilim.
You wrote: bad actors – also known as Askanim – who provide partial or false information for their own personal gain.
No doubt there are, and always were such askanim, There is a reason that כל העסקים בצרכי צבור באמונה get a special bracha. There are also askanim who are selflessly devoted to khal work and are worthy of the above bracha.
You wrote: This is a known thing, and it is unfortunately only the Charedim who don’t see it or the harm it brings.I lament this state of affairs where I am forced to question what Rabbonim say…”
The chareidim I know see it quite clearly. The solution is to speak to Rabbonim directly.
“Without minimizing what the Charedi community has done during the last war, more needed to be done, and that more is specifically serving in the army and giving the RZ community a chance to rest.”
In this people will follow the psakim of their respective Rebbeim. That is as it should be.
Everyone who disagrees with you on this topic is an Apikores? Are you sure it is not a koifer?
Would you be among those who burned the Ramabam’s sefarim or defending him? Every generation has kanayim. Unfortunately, the historical record is not favorable to fanaticism. Would you label someone who quotes from the Moreh a heretic? Someone who asserts that midrash is not literal or historical is outside the frum world?
My point is simple- There are core beliefs and practices that unite us as a community. There are particularities where there can be machlokes but still within the kahal. How one understands the metaphysical / spiritual state of klal yisroel nowadays should be your definition if they can count for a minyan? Do you understand there is no divergence in halachic practice! Are you contemplating a child shouldn’t sit shiva if the tatte is a frum tzioni who never missed a minyan and gave the daf shiur because he believed in their concept of reishis tzmichas geula? That is the halachic implication of an apikores.
For real? You use such a harsh term, perhaps it can be softened a bit? It is so easy to comment anonymously on chat forums without realizing the implications of hurtful speech. I say this with love for klal yisrael, even those I disagree with, they are still welcome at my shabbos tish.
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