March 3, 2014 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #612262shauleliezerMember
honestly, I’m not a gadol. but there are so many aveiros done on purim because people look at the frumer yidden and say if they could do what they want, so can iMarch 3, 2014 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #1056584
You’re saying frei people do more aveiros because I do mitzvos on purim? Yesharim darchei Hashem, tzadikim yelchu bom ureshaim yikashlu bom.March 3, 2014 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #1056585
I think he means to say that frum people do aveiros on purim because they they mistakenly think they are doing a mitzvah.March 3, 2014 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #1056586
Also Matza on Pesach. Let’s get rid of it once and for all. It’s Aveira to be Mevatel Torah to bake Matzos and then Rachmana Chas on the great cost. It can also cause you to Chalila look down upon those who don’t eat Matza. Ilu Hayisi Sham…March 3, 2014 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #1056587rationalfrummieMember
Popa- yes, there’s a little something called maris ayin. And getting drunk on purim is not a mitzvah al pi the Rama (Orach Chaim 681:2). Drinking a little more than usual is enough.March 3, 2014 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #1056588
maris ayin applies to not do a mitzva?
And if I’m machmir like the mechaber then what?March 3, 2014 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #1056589
Totally agree, shauleli.
And you too, HaL.
All that matza on Pesach. Get rid of it, as HaL suggests. I have such a hard time losing the weight when it’s all over. I just love shmura matza. Especially slathered with butter. It’s for sure a shayla of v’nishmartem…
And while we’re on the topic, we should also ban that massive seuda on Purim. All those calories piling on, in most cases permanently. And then all those dishes. Standing on my feet til all hours of the night cleaning up is so bad for my legs.
Anybody else?March 3, 2014 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #1056590Bookworm120Participant
Maybe some people get drunk to the point that they don’t even know the difference between a midah and an aveirah. 😛March 4, 2014 12:26 am at 12:26 am #1056591LogicianParticipant
PBA – all these Purims and all these threads later, and you’re still responding enthusiastically to the drinking threads. Wow!March 4, 2014 12:52 am at 12:52 am #1056592
What if we get less drunk than a blazing skunk?March 4, 2014 1:01 am at 1:01 am #1056593WolfishMusingsParticipant
I have never been drunk in my life — and I will not be getting drunk on this Purim or any other.
The WolfMarch 4, 2014 1:54 am at 1:54 am #1056594
getting drunk on purim can be an extremely spiritually uplifting experience. if you dont feel that way then you obviously arent doing it right. Also I fail to understand the maaras ayin sevara. I guess according to that logic we shouldnt do bris mila either or wear a yarmulke.March 4, 2014 2:05 am at 2:05 am #1056595
getting drunk on purim can be an extremely spiritually uplifting experience. if you dont feel that way then you obviously arent doing it right.
And therefore, the OP feels that since he can’t do it right, nobody should do it.March 4, 2014 3:00 am at 3:00 am #1056596rationalfrummieMember
Check out Hilchos Deios 5:3 on why getting drunk is not spiritual but actually destructive and disgusting.March 4, 2014 4:42 am at 4:42 am #1056597
Check out Hilchos Megillah 2:15 while you’re at it.March 4, 2014 7:01 am at 7:01 am #1056598Sam2Participant
jbaldy: Maybe it can be. I don’t think so, though. To quote a Rebbe of mine, “If you’re drunk enough that everyone sees your Pnimius, you’re not going to remember any of it anyway.” What do you gain, that everyone else can see how much of a Tzaddik you are inside? What is gained from that?
Frankly, the stories that Yeshiva Bochurim reminisce about from Purim makes me think that this is just what Goyish college students say about spring break.
I once overheard one non-Jew trying to describe to another what Purim is. He said it’s like Carnival. I was never as embarrassed in my life about anything in Yiddishkeit as when I heard that. It’s a Busha and a Cherpa that that is what people think Purim is.March 4, 2014 1:00 pm at 1:00 pm #1056599shauleliezerMember
Matza is a chiyuv deoraisa. getting drunk untill your a skunk is way over doing it, al pi halacha. how many people here know of terrible aveiros that were done bec people were machmere more than necessary? i’m suggesting that we can still be mekayim takanos chazal (by sleeping) and stop this mad fever that everything is hefker on purimMarch 4, 2014 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #1056600yaakov doeParticipant
Some would be bereft of all mitzvos it that were to happen.March 4, 2014 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #1056601koldmamadakaMember
It goes to what the Arizal says about Yom Kippur (*Yom Hakipurim*) being “the day that is like Purim.” On YK, we’re supposed to drag ourselves up a spiritual notch or two through fasting & self-denial. On Purim we’re supposed to similarly drag ourselves up a spiritual notch or two through eating & drinking. In this respect, Purim is the far more difficult & challenging of the two days. All too often eating & drinking become ends in themselves.
I have seen way too many frum yidden (yeshiva bochrim & adults) who were in a state of advanced inebriation (staggering, falling down, getting sick, walking into traffic, etc.) that had very little (if anything) to do with real simchat Purim.
I really do not want my teenage sons to see me drunk (plesantly tipsy at seuda while debating some fine point in the Megilla, maybe…)March 4, 2014 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #1056602
Sam2, which Yeshiva Bachurim have you been listening to reminiscing?
And which college students’ spring break stories???March 4, 2014 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #1056603
jbaldy: Maybe it can be. I don’t think so, though.
Maybe it’s not for you, that’s fine, but jbaldy is correct that for many it is.
To quote a Rebbe of mine, “If you’re drunk enough that everyone sees your Pnimius, you’re not going to remember any of it anyway.”
That is simply not true.March 4, 2014 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #1056604
while debating some fine point in the Megilla
Like the difference between Baruch Mordechai and Arur Haman, I guess.March 4, 2014 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #1056605
By the way, a cup of wine doesn’t put you to sleep. Then we have that old Chaqira about if I’m standing.
Now it’s time to bring in those poor excuses like what Basumi really means — as opposed to how it’s actually used throughout Shas. But quoting a Rambam about drinking in general is as meritable as quoting the Rambam about the value of working, and asking how we can rest on Shabbos.
What else did I want to say? Ok, I’ll leave it for now.March 4, 2014 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #1056606
I think that this is an ask your Rav/Rosh Yeshiva issue. If your Rav holds you should follow the Rama’s eitza go right ahead. Many Rabbonim (my Rosh Yeshiva included) do not hold that way. I feel that allowing our own ideas and biases of what is or looks right or wrong to govern our kiyum hamitzvos sets an extremely bad precedent and is a slippery slope. I think that if bochurim are in the right seviva it doesnt have to be a bad thing.March 4, 2014 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #1056607RedlegParticipant
What bothers me is that whenever someone gets a katz Im kup about drinking on Purim or tznius or secular music or whatever it’s alway’s “we all have to do something”. OP, take care of yourself. If you think that drinking on Purim is going to be a problem for you, don’t drink. Don’t be so quick to point out yennem’s aveiros. Take care of your own.March 4, 2014 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #1056608
Of course you’re supposed to get drunk on Purim. Wine was made for something, wasn’t it?March 4, 2014 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #1056609justbecauseMember
i have never been drunk and don’t plan on getting drunk; my friends tell me i have no idea what I’m missing…. i guess ill never knowMarch 4, 2014 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #1056610
JustBecause: You don’t have to get drunk, you just have to drink a lot UNTIL you get drunk. Then you can stop.March 4, 2014 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #1056611oomisParticipant
I haven’t read all the posts, so if I am repeating what someone else already said, excuse me. We live in VERY different times from the ones when our Gedolim said to drink ad d’lo yada. People didn’t get behind the wheel of a 2 ton vehicle and drive while “buzzed” or worse, fully intoxicated in those days. Horses and wagons don’t count, the horses did most of the driving. But today, you WILL see impaired young drivers get behind the wheel. I once had a UPS delivery man (who for several years dropped my neighbor’s packages off with me when they were unavailable) comment to me that he was really upset because his truck had been rear-ended by an obviously Jewish kid that day (Purim) and the kid was clearly drunk, and so were the other passengers in his car. WHAT a chillul Hashem! He was upset, not only because of the (mild) damage to his truck, but because the boys could have been hurt badly (their car WAS damaged badly).
There is no mitzvah that comes from an aveira, and if these boys are dedicating as much enthusiasm to learning and making the minyan on time as they are to the “mitzvah” to drink (and I am not even sure what exactly that mitzvah entails today), then fine. But then they should stay indoors all Purim and not ruin Purim for all the Hatzolah members and their families.
Oh yeah, and I do not appreciate drunk yeshivah boys throwing up on my lawn.March 4, 2014 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #1056612
Does Libisumei mean, to barf all over the place and make sure the entire area stinks like vomit?March 4, 2014 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #1056613justbecauseMember
” the yeshiva guys learn so much and work so hard so if they want to get drunk and have fun once a year, why not? “
– i hate that excuseMarch 4, 2014 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #1056614WolfishMusingsParticipant
Of course you’re supposed to get drunk on Purim. Wine was made for something, wasn’t it?
Yes. Bringing on the mizbayach as a nesech.
(No, I don’t actually believe it was solely created for that reason, but if LF is going to assert that it was created only for getting drunk on Purim, I can just as easily assert that it was created solely to be used in karbanos.)March 4, 2014 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #1056615
I like what jbaldy wrote. One should follow the custom, minhagim of the K’hilah one belongs to. If the Rav, Rosh Yeshiva, Rebbe says to drink then one must do so, as one follows all the directives of the Gadol. Personal feelings, gemutlichkeit do not play a role. Of course one must always know there is a Ribono Shel Olam, and NEVER forget himself. Even when drunk. (Yes, I heard of a Gadol who demanded this in earnest from those he personally gave to drink). There is a Ribono Shel Olam, there is a Shulchan Aruch even on Purim, with all the festivities notwithstanding (hilchos mazik on Purim too). One must know why he is drinking, and in front of Whom he is drinking.
Those who follow the directives of a Godol who holds not to get drunk, may not do so – to do it would be plain frivolousness shelo lshem mitzvah.March 4, 2014 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #1056616
That is a good question apushata, about the vomit smell. Because in my mind I always connect libisumei with bosem, which is fragrant.
Anyway, the same thing I wrote in the Megillah thread applies to Purim in general-
(And I have actually seen inebriated people manage that.)March 4, 2014 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1056617The little I knowParticipant
There is a debate in Shas about whether Mitzvos tzrichos kavanah. Regardless, if one does the mitzvah whie having express intentions for another purpose, it is a serious issue.
Here’s the challenge. Especially these days, many people look to escape the realities of life, and this may be far more prevalent than we have believed. If the drinking (within halachic limits, of course) is lishmoh, then one would not be losing himself, barfing on someone’s lawn, getting behind a steering wheel, walking out in traffic, etc. If, however, Purim is just the excuse to “let go”, then we have a major problem at hand. It is not connected to any mitzvah, and is undoubtedly nothing more than a pure and disgusting aveiroh.March 4, 2014 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #1056618
It’s enough that I don’t get drunk on taanis esther.March 4, 2014 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #1056619
” the yeshiva guys learn so much and work so hard so if they want to get drunk and have fun once a year, why not? “
a bachur tried that in beis din and the dayan told him, hope you had fun, now pay the orthopedist bills incurred by apushatayid when you decided in the name of having fun to act recklessly and cause bodily damage to someone.March 4, 2014 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #1056620
The only sha’aloh I have is if the “??????” is ??????, since it could be ????? ????. Any lamdanim here?March 4, 2014 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #1056621
I seem to recall a special halacha for nizkei purim. Or else I’m just making it up.March 4, 2014 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #1056622
I agree with most of what The Frog said besides for the part about knowing why you are drinking. That would be violating Baruch Mordecha Arur Haman, Veyesh Leyashev Aval Akati Kasha.March 4, 2014 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #1056623oomisParticipant
If the Rav, Rosh Yeshiva, Rebbe …”
Perhaps they all have designated drivers to chauffeur them around.March 4, 2014 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #1056624
Oomis, you are right. These days are different. These days people are very much aware of the danger of driving drunk and it isn’t done.March 4, 2014 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #1056625Veltz MeshugenerMember
Everyone is misinterpreting what the meaning of the mitzvah is. The words seem to say you have to drink until you get drunk, but those are intended for people who only learned when they drank. It was the opposite of today’s drunkenness – it was a way to elevate their avodas hashem, except that they couldn’t get drunk every day, so they would focus on purim as the time to experience the avodah. But for us, who only do things like not learn when we are drunk, it’s the biggest avairah possible.March 4, 2014 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #1056626
Oh, seems like no one got my last one – the sha’alah. (I hate dissecting frogs but..) So let try to explain.
The ?????? I’m “klering” about, is called ?????? because that’s what it is. (to put it in delicate terms it would be “output”) The sha’alo would be if it’s considered ????? ?????. Maybe it needs ?????, that’s why all those trucks appear right after Purim.March 4, 2014 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #1056627
VM: That’s a very cute and original (mis)representation to ???? ???????. There’s also another sect who think that doing mitzvhos now the way we were told to do them way back (on Har Sinai) is now a big aveira.
Again, as I wrote, one must follow his Rav, kehilla and not make up any “dreys”, “torahs” or what ever you call it. If that Kehilla does then it’s a full fledged mitzvah like all others (read above). If they don’t then it’s not a mitzvah just ?????? as I wrote.March 4, 2014 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #1056628Sam2Participant
PBA: The Rama (quoting from a T’shuvah about jousting at weddings) says that you are Pattur if you damage Mitoch Simchas Purim. I have heard several Poskim state (and a major Gadol once supported me when I said this) that this does not apply if one is drunk, because the Rama L’shitaso expects you not to be that drunk.March 5, 2014 12:30 am at 12:30 am #1056629
Don’t worry, popa, we can say ??? ??.March 5, 2014 12:52 am at 12:52 am #1056630writersoulParticipant
Look, I don’t care if people drink. Just don’t put yourself or other people in danger while doing so. Be drunk in the privacy of your own home or, if you absolutely must go out, bring a designated driver- and if she’s your wife, make it up to her BIG TIME afterward. Don’t completely defile your environment either; every year I go to a Purim seudah across the street from the rosh yeshiva of a beis midrash, and every year when I get out of the car I have to step around piles of vomit. My cousin told me that when she went in to bring shalach manos all of the surfaces were covered in plastic tablecloths and everything breakable was put away, and for very good reason.
If you’re an adult, though, if you MUST give alcohol to minors (and I don’t see why that’s a must) be responsible about it. Don’t give unlimited access- prevent kids from getting actually drunk- bear in mind that they’re many times smaller than you and need less alcohol to get to the ER. And remember, if you’re not his parent it’s ILLEGAL- try arguing “sacramental purposes” in court and see where it takes you.March 5, 2014 2:31 am at 2:31 am #1056631
when i was in yeshiva the rosh yeshiva made sure there were designated drivers at night and during the day. There were a couple of guys who were unable to drink due to medical issues or just drank by the seudah.March 5, 2014 4:43 am at 4:43 am #1056632charliehallParticipant
I’ve never gotten drunk on Purim. Never will.
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