Medicating vs Spanking

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  • #1981615
    eishis chayil
    Participant

    why consider? dont you see that these are more effective?

    #1982099
    IYK
    Participant

    Potching only taught me that my dad was a bully. He never learned to control his own emotions and would lose his cool and hit me. So please tell me, how was I to learn the necessary life skills to control my own emotions?

    #1982100
    IYK
    Participant

    Positive reinforcement is a better tool to use than negative reinforcement for 2 reasons. Positivity is a motivator to repeat what was learned. Yet by hitting a child, you teach that if you’re bigger and stronger than who you face, you can hurt them. That doesn’t help in real life.

    #1982101
    IYK
    Participant

    I’ve been on many medications and am thriving now off of them, better than when I was on them. I don’t have adhd and I understand that medications can change how one physically feels. But the reason I pulled through is because I used therapy to learn life skills I was missing. Therapy is more helpful than medications, as medications may deal with symptoms, but proper therapy deals with the cause of the symptoms.

    #1982102
    IYK
    Participant

    Just because it seems effective, or you were hit yourself as a child, doesn’t mean that it’s the correct thing to do to kids under your care. Even a small love tap can trigger one who has been abused to shut off their inner personality. If hashem wanted us robots, he would have made us robots. Our uniqueness is what makes us great. I mean, how would you feel if you were controlled by fear? Most likely, you still are.

    #1982104
    IYK
    Participant

    Life skills would include learning to control our emotions, not learning to let our emotions control us. Yes, most people nowadays are controlled by their emotions, meaning they are not in control of themselves.

    #1982107
    IYK
    Participant

    A sign that most are controlled by their emotions is the rampant smoking and drug use nowadays. If you truly loved yourself, why would you harm your body by doing such things? People have a hard time quitting smoking because they never learnt to love themselves.

    #1982108
    IYK
    Participant

    There is a lack of teaching tactics. Don’t you think that telling a child to do ten sit ups or push ups or jumping jacks would be more effective than hitting? It would also be positive for most children as small bits of exercise is very healthy for most normal people. Yet no one does this. Most don’t even understand that time out to think on their own is also more effective than shutting down the emotions.

    #1982110
    IYK
    Participant

    One more thing. If you shoot a child dead, I guarantee you that he/she will never act out again. But that doesn’t truly solve the issue you have as he/she will definitely cut class for the rest of your lives. Besides, don’t we want to share positive messages? Why are we resorting to painful techniques to control rather than teaching techniques to build?

    #1982924
    johnklets
    Participant

    IYK:

    Thank for your long detailed posts. I will have the honour to disagree on some points, but i think your last post was a little to far, the comparation between disciplining a child through potching and shooting him dead is just not the case. Agree or disagree regarding spanking, it’s clear that those advocating spanking are just seeking the same positive outcome in the child that you described, and they believe that sometimes when used sparingly it’s the right approach

    #1983130
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Neither drugs nor assault is necessary.

    #1983135

    IYK > So please tell me, how was I to learn the necessary life skills to control my own emotions?

    R Pliskin gives the following suggestion to exactly this question askeb by someone whose parents did not show a good example.
    He asks back – did you ever see good behavior that you could emulate?
    – Yes, but only several days year, when visiting someone, and the rest of the time – only bad
    – If you play good examples in your head many times [rather than bad ones AAQ] , it would be equivalent to seeing it many times, and it will help you train yourself

    #1983377
    ADHD
    Participant

    If he does have a adhd one of the biggest problems with some one with adhd is the lack of internal motivation most people can do things just for the sake of making the parents happy but someone with ADHD needs a much higher motivation That’s what boring tasks are almost impossible to do is a very interesting share from “rabbi_daniel_kalish_the-most-successful-people-are-adhd” who explains how this works and according to rabbi kalish this is why ADHD people are always looking for ways to be my michadish making their marriage more exciting making their learning more exciting making their davning feel of more exciting the book praying by fire was written by somebody with ADHD as a tool to make his davning more exciting so If done right with the right partner you can motivate an ADHD person to do almost anything you just need a little bit of creativity and excitement reward programs are awesome especially for kids and even for adults and to the naysayers who say well then you just teaching them to always need rewards that’s like saying to a blind person who needs a stick to walk wow you’re teaching him that he would always need a stick well yes that is the way our brains work and we will always need external motivation the trick is to use the right external motivation and the best lesson you can give over to your child with ADHD is this point how do you use external motivation appropriately good luck

    #1983530

    Adhd, indeed, you are supposed to be excited about your marriage, learning, davening. And doing new things is a good thing, just direct this drive to appropriate and non destructive goals

    #1984701
    eishis chayil
    Participant

    why are people telling others what to do and how to discipline and be mechanech their children. every mamme and tatte may use whichever method they wish, including petch and soap. i think i can say for certain and positive that most mammes will give petch and soap for misbehaving. it is okay, there is nothing wrong with it. lets see here how many mothers hit their kids or will use soap, all mothers who hit r soap please speak up and share your voice and opinion, or husbands speak up for your wives.

    #1984705
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    No, most mothers don’t hit and soap their kids. But as a 15 year old you probably have no way of knowing that.

    #1984737
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Aside from some rabbonim who believe/believed that corporeal punishment is not effective in our society, due to the increasingly irreverent and disrespectful nature of children who grow up in the Western world, are we to refer to chosech shivto sonei b’no as child abuse? Did Rav Wolbe and Rav Pam (the only prominent rabbonim I’m aware of who said to completely cease all patching) refer to it as such? Did they say that if you see a parent or a rebbe hitting a kid the yiddishe way, meaning not in anger, and not severely – which halacha mandates or at the very least allows – you should report them to the authorities as a child abuser?

    They did not. They lived Torah. They didn’t take their attitudes and values from Western culture.

    #1984738
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    I believe that most of the trauma that people present in their adulthood which is attributed to parental or parochial punishment, is when such punishments are meted out in a state of emotional urgency or anger. Halacha dictates that when a parent or rebbe is angry or otherwise emotionally unstable it is strictly forbidden to strike a child.

    #1984751
    The little I know
    Participant

    I have repeated this countless times on several threads on this subject. So many of the comments here are coming from personal opinions, and most are without having been educated and informed on the subject matter. I suggest that before engaging with the keyboard and mouse, first engage with the seforim from the Gedolim of our present and recent generations as well as plenty from even earlier. I hurts me to see the abuse heaped on the posuk in Mishlei, חושך שבטו שונא בנו, as if it directs one to teach via discipline. This is a severe corruption. It is clearly worded to place discipline as a last resort. It also doesn’t specifically instruct to hit, and claiming it does is attributing something to Shlomo Hamelech that he never said. It is sad that we have allowed our chinuch to become founded on discipline rather than teaching. It is sad that we have made about compliance, not the transmission of values. It is sad that our yeshivos now base their success on volumes of data transmitted in place of the transmission of values of our Avos. Just look at the use of tests that translate to grades, which are nothing more than the retrieval of memory, with little to no attention paid to the effort and progress of each individual student. Tests reflect more about the success of the teacher than the progress of the students. It is sad.

    The potch has its place. It is there to control behavior, not to teach. Now remind us all of the role of the rebbe. If it is about control, you are describing a boot camp, not a yeshiva. When chinuch deteriorates to the management of the class via discipline, we have a rebbe or teacher that occupies the wrong job, a menahel who is clueless about real Torah chinuch, or a curriculum whose value is simply the paper it is on.

    This is not about secular education. It is Torah chinuch. Check your Judaica/seforim store for the publications on chinuch from Torah leaders. Then tell us about how and when to use discipline.

    #1984767
    eishis chayil
    Participant

    opinion still stays opinion. i see what people write here, but i still did not read here something that will really make me change my strict way of discipline, or lower my amount of petch and punishments, no one here proved anything or mentioned anything with the way i take care of my kids. and no matter what people will say, i still think i am right with how i deal with things at home, and now in the summer when my kids go off t camps i fell much less stress at home, after all, my teenage kids are missing and all the behavior is now on their camps staff tp take care of

    #1985007
    johnklets
    Participant

    Eishis Chail: I agree firmly with your opinion on spanking children, of course when done sparingly and with yishuv hadaas. I got spanked by my father only 3-4 times in all my childhood, but that was as they call it “gezunte petsh” and was enough for a long time. If petsh have to be repeated every Monday and Thursday then it is not working and only creates a bad atmospher at home. Better give a carefully hard spanking once in 2 years for a real misdemeanor than giving small spankings 4 times a month. Some of my kids got 1-2 times petsh and some did never get to a reason to get petsh and thats because they knew about the possibility of petsh, as one of the previous gedolim said that the kantshik in cheder is hanging on the wall mainly for the children to know that it could be used when neccesary, and so much to use it. About your suggestion that most mammes give petch, unfortunately as far i know very few mammes today have the courage to potch their kids properly and even fathers are getting fewer and fewer. Maybe they give some times here and there a small petshel for small kids for foolish or dangerous things they do, but most kids older then 5 years old do not know what petsh means, as far i know, maybe i am mistaken.

    TLIK: The passuk “Chosech shivto” is “kipshuto”, look in the meforshim, look at other psukim in Mishlei like “Atu beshevet takenu vnafhsho mishoil tatzil”, look in Shevet Halevi Chelek 11 pshat in the posuk, and look also in shichas Lubavitcher Rebbe 19 Kislev 5731.

    #1985064

    even when something is “allowed” in general, the question whether a particular person is allowed to use it is not trivial. When you say “when done sparingly and with yishuv hadaas” this leaves a lot of wiggle room – and you are giving it to a person who already asked to do something extreme. Did the same person already try all other methods? asked shailos? read books about education? excluded influence of bad friends and teachers? tried working on his own middos? if yes, these questions might have been posted here. If the first question is about spanking, this raises questions.

    R Slifkin in his “Lying for truth” brings a number of heterim for lying when absolutely necessary, but he keeps Baal Shem Tov’s caveat till the last page: if a person lied inappropriately once in his lfe, then he is not eligible to lie l’derech shalom, etc. same caveat may apply here – if you ever got angry ….

    #1985232
    johnklets
    Participant

    AAQ: Come on, generations of ordinary jews raised children according to tora guidance including petsh, the tora has trusted parents with their children, i am not answering to extremists, i am reffering to ordinary parents

    #1985271
    eishis chayil
    Participant

    yes johnklets. i agree with you. petch is the way to raise kids if done normally

    #1985424

    > generations of ordinary jews raised children according to tora guidance including petsh

    can we be more specific? anyone with direct contact with gedolei hador or read some recent books? which Talmidei Chachamim are patching their kids and what for? I’d like to learn

    #1985466
    eishis chayil
    Participant

    seriously?? specific?? do you think that any rebbi, rosh yeshiva etc. will slap his kid in front of the entire shul so everyone can see and let you know?? i know for a fact that my rav is an extremist when it comes to chinuch, he raises his kids with yiras shamayim and obviously with petch when neccesary. i hear from my husband how the rav will yell in shul on his kids or punish them. he suggests parents to potch when neccesary, he is a chasidic rav in a certain kehilla.

    i think your comment is not so derech eretz toward rabbanim and talmidei chachamim.

    also a parent has a right in disciplining her kids without consulting her rav etc. taking in consideration that its just normal discipline which 99.99 percent of parents do, a potch can be normal discipline if not done cruelly like my mother who would give me gezunte petch as a teenager for the smallest thing. i had no therapy and had to torture myself and fight for my life to grow up normal and self confident as i am. i had a miracle that i am normal.

    anyway, just whatever you do to your kids make sure that its really out of love and care and chas veshalom punish with happiness. i always show my kids my face as sad and half crying that i have no choice and potch them, they see how i hate to do it and know its just out of love and i have no choice and give them that potch so they behave. REMEMBER: NEVER EVER GIVE GEZUNTE PETCH EVEN IF YOU SHOW THEM HOW YOU CRY AND HATE TO HIT THEM, I SUFFERED MISSERABLY FROM MY MOTHERS GEZUNTE PETCH

    #1985496

    Eishes, why is it disrespectful – you are saying something is a good practice, then the Rabbis who think this way should show an example. If they do not want to embarrass the kid in fron t of the community, they might refer to that in their divrei Torah. You say yours yells at kids and punishes (physically or “no ice cream”). I personally do not recall seeing or hearing Rabbis of any derech behaving like that. So, I conjecture, it is possible not to hit kids. Especially if you are saying that you were mistreated yourself, you have a high chance to mis-interpret how you apply same approach. Rambam in Hilhos Dea recommends to keep most midos in the middle, but if you were exposed to one extreme of a mida, then you need, temporarily, to move to the other side to train yourself. That is, if you were exposed to cruely, you should try to double down on being nice to your kids to ensure that you are not biased. This should not be a big deal – surely, if you hold that hitting is OK, you are not saying that it is obligatory? One old Jewish book on issues of anger recommends using, for example, rewards and competitions between kids as substitutes.

    #1985498
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    You have no way of knowing the authenticity of a random story from an anonymous poster about an unnamed rabbi that sounds very atypical.

    #1985507

    Syag, I agree. And it is not even first hand. I think it would be fair to say that more Jewishly-educated people do not do this, so those who do should consider whether their practice is normative at this point.

    #1985725
    eishis chayil
    Participant

    our rav will not hit his kids, he will just yell at them or punish etc. i am not just an anonymous poster. i am a poster just like you and everyone else. i was mistreated, correct, but i will never do it to my kids, i do believe in potching but only regular petch and not for small crimes and not done with happiness, only done with a broken heart

    #1985836

    Eishes, as I understand Rambam’s advice – when you get exposed to a negative trait, the right response is to (at least temporarily) go to the opposite side, not just decrease the negative. Show your kids love, play games with them, learn with them, just erase “petching” from your life – this is the best for yout to do in response to your experiences.

    #1985923
    johnklets
    Participant

    AAQ: It is not a negative trait, chas veshalom to say so on someone who raises his/her kids al pi torah. Kids who are not spanked when it is necessary are deprived from their right just as kids who are potched to much.

    #1986303
    Chaim Shulem
    Participant

    Yeah, let’s spank our kids and then pretend that we’re better parents than the “goyim”.

    #1986316
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    CS – who ever said that?

    #1986458

    You are not allowed to spank children now during 3 weeks al pi torah, so it is a perfect timing to switch to other, more positive, measures.

    #1986457

    ” It is not a negative trait, chas” ​veshalom to say so on someone who raises his/her kids al pi torah

    I am trying to see here that this is a wrong definition “al pi Torah”. If Torah allows something in some limited circumstances, does not mean that this should be your focus. Try to focus on being positive.

    #1986487
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    In the biography (muller) of the brisker rov ztvk”l, a story is recorded of a motzi shabbos when rav berel ztvk”l was a child, and did melacha before saying boruch hamavdil – the rov said “you were oiver a derabonon” and gave him a petch

    #1986603

    Avira, I don’t think this was the center of his educational method. Here is a sample. I presume these approaches need to be mastered first before resorting to petching:

    The [Brisker] Rav had learned his parenting from his from his experience as a child from a master teacher his father Rav Chaim Soleveitchik, the previous Rov in Brisk. Among the unique parenting goals he had was to teach his child to think, a lost skill in today’s age.

    Rav Chaim would take strolls with his son through the streets of brisk and would ask his son to count “how many floors are in this building? How many windows? Can you find the differences between these two similar buildings?” Even studying people’s behavior was part of a walk. “What can you learn about person through their actions? Do they feel safe? Are they confused? Are they secure? Are they local or a guest? He would cut an apple in half and ask his son which half is bigger? What are the differences between the halves?” Following all these questions and answers he would then prod the boy “How did you arrive at your conclusion? And discuss his methodology. If Rav Chaim would sense that the boy could give a better explanation than the one given he would not criticize. Rather with fatherly love encouraged “I know that you can say an even better explanation.” and of course the boy did so. (page 84 till 96-from Rabbi Shimon Mueler’s-biography ’Harav MiBrisk’)

    “Ah, they don’t know how many tears I shed when I shokeled(shook) each of the baby carriages. How I was mispallel (prayed) and how may kapitlach Tehillim (psalms) I said for them that they should go in the good way.”

    Just as the Brisker Rov had done, Reb Rephoel his son, likewise checked to see where his child went, with whom and when she returned home. This was successful because his daughter saw this care, as a sign of parental love, not as something negative, the way many children in contemporary society would. She recalls: “I didn’t feel like I was in prison. I felt lucky to be in such a home. I felt that’s the right way.” Once a friend came to me and I went with her to accompany her home. My father asked me when I came back: “What did you do on the way? I felt cared for.

    #1986627
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Oy… potching being taken to be the “center of education” is like saying that sour candies are the staple of a child’s diet

    My point was that the Rov held it was ok to potch – I made no claim as to what he holds about frequency, circumstances, degree, or anything else.

    It should go without saying that potching is very rare for any semi-competent parent, and is the “center of education” only in horrifyingly abusive homes.

    #1986653

    Avira, we have here a person who says she was abused, and now she is petching kinder … she should be first discussing how to use different approaches – like the Q&A approach of Rav Chaim above. If she does not, there might be a problem. And your example means that Brisker, after all of the above, seems to done it very rarely (as the child remembers exact moment and reason).

    There is also an additional issue of differences between generations: there are stories where gedoli use milder reaction than their teachers in Europe under same circumstances – as differnt generations react differently. This is the excitement of mitzvot bein Adam l’Havero – they depend on personalities and gnerations, and you can’t just refer to someone in different times and copy it.

    #1986783
    IYK
    Participant

    I see this is a hot topic…

    I think we should all daven/pray:
    That those who have experienced abuse should not pass their pain on to others, especially children. We should pray that those who haven’t experienced abuse should not cause a negative pattern of abuse to start. We should pray that those who have been abused should be given the strength to seek help escaping the pains that they experience daily and go to therapy. That they put in the work to get better and heal despite all the name calling and repercussions that come along with being recognized as a victim of abuse. We should pray that no matter how hard it is, they should have the resilience and support to persist in therapy with the attitude of being in it to win it, no matter how long it takes. We should pray that all who’ve been abused should become successful despite all harm that’s been done to them. Finally, we should pray abusers realize what they do is wrong and should also seek help.

    #1986791
    eishis chayil
    Participant

    so you are trying to convince me that what i do is wrong

    #1986825
    IYK
    Participant

    When it says “Chosech Shivto” holding back his stick, I have a different understanding. The Avos were shepherds. Did they use their stick to hit the sheep, or to guide them?

    #1986828
    The little I know
    Participant

    eishes chayil:

    I have repeated this here and other threads on this subject. There is a place for a potch. However, the determination of when it is appropriate is more complex than it ever was. Instead of attempting to mimic what he know or hear about of past generations, we need to see what the gedolim of our times tell us of the guidelines.

    Earlier, there was quote about the Brisker Rov. Let’s see what he stated. I report this from a verbatim quote published in a reputable seferon chinuch. The Rov said that the first potch might be permissible under a list of conditions. The second potch is an issur min haTorah of assault. The Gemora instructs this potch to not be with a strap but with a shoelace. It is clear that the potch is not there to punish but to teach. If we cause pain to a child or talmid, are we teaching, or are we establishing the fear to force compliance. The latter might help control the classroom, but it is dishonest to call that teaching.

    With all the opinions here, I still ignore all of them, in total deference to the guidance from so many Gedolim of the current and recent generations. The material from their guidance is accessible. We cannot expect a positive result from running our homes and yeshivos like a boot camp. Teach them. Model for them. It works.

    #1986827
    IYK
    Participant

    When it says “atu bishevet takenu” as well as “chosech shivto”, these words were coming from a Shepherd. A shepherd has both a hooked staff and a rod/club. Both are not used to hit the sheep. One is used for hitting the wolves that come to eat the sheep. The other uses of those shepherds tools are for redirecting sheep, but I stress, not by hitting them.

    #1986831
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    IYK – maybe melacha on shabbos means moving furniture….

    We have a mesorah for pshat. Rashi first and foremost – I’d suggest learning the actual pasuk with the meforshim before possibly entering the category of megaleh ponim batorah shelo kahalacha.

    #1986883
    IYK
    Participant

    I said what needs to be said. I will be leaving this forum again for a while. Those who are in an abusive situation, I pray you can gather the strength to go to the cops and report them instead of becoming self destructive. Just because someone thinks they know true Torah and Mesorah or preaches like they do, doesn’t mean there isn’t a better way to live that would get support from the creator of all. Especially when they cannot show you love and care in the ways of shalom.

    #1986873

    eishes chaiyl > so you are trying to convince me that what i do is wrong

    we here can’t see what is going on in your family. But, I thijk we can see that there is a risk here … What I think is that there are other ways where you can be sure that you are right, and there are seforim that support this approach: focus on positive ways to deal with children. It is not easy and surely you might have lots of questions – so consider these questions, ask how to do it, focus on positive approaches and you will not be wrong. If you don’t know how to start – give kids rewards – sweets, money, kisses; maybe let them compete for these rewards.

    #1986872

    Maybe IYK is a baki shepherd? This is like the fatal discussion between R Yohanan and Resh Lakish about when a sword becomes Tameh. Resh Lakish knew the business …

    #1986910
    Health
    Participant

    TLIK -“There is a place for a potch”

    The only time that I Know it’s Ok, is when it’s a last Resort.
    Eg. – Kid hitting another kid & won’t Stop.
    Running across a street, despite trying to hold him/her back.

    The ones that say it’s Ok once in awhile are Wrong. (Except with those or very similar cases – I just posted.)
    Times have changed & the Gedolim say those Chazals that say Corporal Punishment is Ok – doesn’t Apply nowadays!
    The ones that Keep harping on that, are Megaleh Ponim She’lo K’halacha!

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