Memoir called "Unorthodox" and its effect on us

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Memoir called "Unorthodox" and its effect on us

Viewing 50 posts - 451 through 500 (of 718 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #868804

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    the real question we must ask . Why are we chasing people away and not only we are chasing people away and they are “fighting”

    Why is there a need for an organization to help these people (There is a need because there is a demand, if there was no demand there wouldnt be a need)

    So much time and effort is spent on kirov, How about trying to keep those already there

    #868805

    Naysberg
    Member

    ZeesKite: Well said, well said. Everyone should read ZeesKite’s comments for a Torah view of this wicked woman.

    Feif: The halacha IS you divorce a woman who cannot have children (after 10 years.) That IS the primary goal of a marriage. There are other reasons to be married too, so someone who cannot have children still ought to get married.

    #868806

    soliek
    Member

    Guter yid: do you need her to be a liar? as far as im concerned every word of it could be true and i wouldnt care because she sees it one way and i see it another way. she sees nothing but oppression, and i see beauty in judaism, why do YOU need her to be a liar?

    if she lied id like to see it. i asked for a list because i was genuinely interested and curious. if you have instances where she lied please list them in a coherent manner rather than ranting about how my level of torah observance must be questionable.

    Naisberg: you want attention? here. have some attention.

    mytake: thank you, i really am curious. by the way i know quite about chassidim, but her book is specifically about satmar in williamsburg…not all chassidim, and i only know about chassidus in boro park.

    also what you said about the conversation…in memoir it is acceptable to reconstruct a conversation from memory even if it isnt word for word. she prints that disclaimer before the book.

    “So much time and effort is spent on kirov, How about trying to keep those already there”

    Project Chazon

    by the way…for those of you who may have forgotten…heres what i originally write about the matter

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/memoir-called-unorthodox-and-its-affect-on-us#post-352289

    #868807

    Guter yid
    Participant

    Zahavasdad, “we” are not chasing anybody away, [BTW, I’m not sure who “we” in your vocabulary is, since u don’t appear to know much of Torah or Judaism], if u read her book, u obviously realized that she has major issues with Torah & halacha, she has a problem with being “unclean” 2 weeks, she has issues with asking sheilos, (making fun of it), she has issues with the torah period. And the same yetzer hara that “chased away” many resha’im & meshumadim past 3000 years, same yetzer hora chased away this poor lost soul, but the yetzer hora didn’t exactly chase her away, he’s actually holding on to her, with a strong grip.

    Soliek, are you really looking for the list of lies? it does not appear to be the case, I just mentioned one big fat blatant lie, another poster right after me did as well, and throughout this long thread many lies were brought to everyones attention, but since you have an agenda, and you’re not interested at all in getting a list, due to your hate to the Torah [nebech] you just want to cover up for this meshumedes, and you want to encourage the ennemies of Hashem and the Jewish nation, you enjoy seeing the Torah and Jews being mocked and subject to stupid false accusations and scrutiny, so I wouldn’t waste another minute for such a cause.

    #868808

    tahini
    Member

    Zahavasdad, thanks so much for your post!

    We do indeed need an organisation for young people leaving the fold, to show those who are unhappy or experienced troubled homelife a sense of identity and provide support. Kiruv is so very much supported and quite rightly so, but so should be those upset within the frum world itself. Suspect it is a cause of embarrasment and people prefer to keep it quiet, can’t see an appeal or fund raiser for troubled emotionally damaged frum families getting much coverage in the frum world. We are very image sensitive and need to get back a sense of reality and what really counts.

    #868809

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    You are talking about two different things: “intimacy” with a spouse (not for children) and marriage (Which is, assuming not like the Rosh IIRC).

    #868810

    Guys, gals…

    Has anyone actually READ this book??

    #868811

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Guter Yid, you mentioned the same thing as everyone else, the murder cover up. I’ve responded to that already. Got anything else?

    #868812

    a mamin
    Participant

    I really don’t get it, no matter how MANY lies we prove in this thread there are those who keep insisting we spell out her lies?? I guess you didn’t get a proper education? Did you all go to Satmer? She SAID everyone graduates there with a fourth grade reading level?? Is that what the problem is? By the way she DIDNT even go to Satmer all the years . She attended other schools as well. What about the LIE that Chassidic children are never taken to doctors??? That wasn’t a lie??? Just go pass any pediatrician office in Williamsburg, ask them if they are all under the poverty level, since no chassidim use drs?????

    Bottom line everyone has a free choice to make their own choices in life and then THEY HAVE TO LIVE WITH THOSE DECISIONS! She did not have to paint chassidim and jews black!! She did live in one of the most warm communities in New York, with the most chesed available ! It is unfortunate that she didn’t feel that way!

    By the way, all the bashing here is really not conducive to th achdus in Klal Yisroel that is needed right now! I am not looking down at others who do less than me and I don’t appreciate being bashed or painted black by those who do!

    #868813

    soliek
    Member

    Guter yid: i noted what you said, i appreciate you pointing it out, but what i dont appreciate is your calling my love for the torah and judaism into question. you dont know me, and you are in no way qualified to pass judgement on me. your accusations are disgusting and it calls into question your character. please try and work on yourself.

    i want a list because im interested in every aspect of this whole mess, and contrary to what you believe, i actually do care about both sides. its you who doesnt, and i understand that. you assume that being overzealous will protect you from anything like this ever happening to your friends and family, and its one point of view, but i disagree. this can happen to anyone and the more i know about the better equipped i am to deal with it. if she lied i want to know. if you can cite lies please do. if you cant, please keep quiet. i dont need your lectures, much less your vitriol.

    also, why because i love a jew who i feel unfortunately had a terrible life, and hope one day realizes that judaism is so much more than what she experienced, must i hate frum jews? how is that a logical conclusion? shes not a meshumad, by the way. on the subject of lies and exaggerations…she is NOT A MESHUMAD. get your FACTS straight, buddy.

    and yes, i have read the book.

    #868814

    soliek
    Member

    In the interest of fairness, ill address the two alleged lies that people posted here in this thread.

    1) The purpose of relations is for procreation: debatable.

    2) Chinuch doesnt necessarily mean what she described as being the absolute definition of what chinuch is: that IS a lie, however she may not have known better. either way it IS questionable, thank you for pointing it out.

    3) The age of the boy who was killed/committed suicide: does the age really matter? the story is what matters and we’ve established that the story is false. i would call that a terrible lack of due diligence on both her and simon and schuster’s parts.

    any more?

    #868815

    000646
    Participant

    Health,

    I tried posting a reply before but the mods didnt let it. I will try once more.

    Re: the makeup thing,

    I grew up in Lakewood and I know that evrey yeshivish Highschool has a rule against teenage girls wearing makeup. I cannot imagine that Satmar Chasidim are less makpid on this.

    You said:

    “Actually I don’t assume anything in life. I look at things as much as humanly possible in an objective way.

    It’s obvious you can’t!”

    Then you said:

    “I never said “I know” (646-that the book is full of falsehoods). Don’t put words in my mouth! I’ll repeat what I posted -“If I’d want to waste my time and read her trash -I’m sure I’d find many falsehoods!”

    Do you not see how little sense you make, and how you contradict yourself??

    #868816

    Health
    Participant

    Feif Un -“Health: Again, instead of just spewing hatred, please list some of the lies she wrote about – and not the same old thing about the possible murder cover-up.”

    I understand that you Feif -Un, but you look foolish when you Feif Un without reading other’s posts!

    I posted three lies -one came from another poster about make up, another was about an interview that had to do with reading skills that they graduate with, and the third I found myself, which came from an excerpt. This was about Chinuch.

    #868817

    tahini – there are quite a number of “official” programs, such as the aforementioned Project Chazon. In 5Towns there’s Madraigos. Rabbi Shaya Cohen runs Priority One. Rabbi Ronnie Greenwald is extensively involved in many programs. Rachel’s Place provides a safe haven for girls who may have been abused or victimized, or just need a place to go, and has seen many of them turn their lives around.

    These are just a few that I could think of without googling.

    But one universal theme that each and every one emphasizes is to show the OTD person unconditional love. Granted, that’s primarily referring to the parents, but shouldn’t it be applicable to everyone? Why would someone want to come back if they feel they are hated?

    #868818

    soliek
    Member

    “What about the LIE that Chassidic children are never taken to doctors???”

    theres another one. thank you. that one actually really annoyed me when i read it.

    “he SAID everyone graduates there with a fourth grade reading level”

    there was some truth to what she said about secular education in chassidish schools, that the administration doesnt take it seriously and neither do the kids or their parents.

    by the way…im not attacking any of you, i have no idea why youre all attacking me.

    #868819

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Feif: ‘We believe that EVERYONE can do teshuva.’

    I suggest you read up on it. No. Not in her book. In Yiddishe seforim. Something like maybe Shaarei Tshuva etc. Read what Torah says about one that causes a chilul HaShem. About one that’s frankly IMPOSSIBLE to undo, retract. About one publicized on to evry media possible. About one so widly disseminated.

    For easy calulation let stry this:

    Chilul Hashem (for which only misa is mechpar)

    x 1,000,000,000 (and counting)

    ===============

    ?,???,???,??? (OUCH!!)

    Again, why would any professed Jew side with, and sympathize with her, in her WAR against HaShem, His Torah, His People? Its beyond me. It itself speaks volumes. If she’d write against you, would you be complacent as much???? Are you so removed, distanced from your Creator???

    #868820

    a mamin
    Participant

    Soleik:; Do all Satmer graduates have a fourth grade reading level when they graduate? Not even one of them because they would NEVER graduate!

    Just because they CHOOSE what they allow their students to read does not mean they don’t read at all!! As faras the bedroom scene, she paints lies , one after another and I WILL NOT GO INTO DETAIL there either!

    #868821

    a mamin
    Participant

    For all of you who are so inetrested to find out the truth about her lies why don’t you go on the blog Exposed, Deborah Feldman?? Why do you keep asking us to read her trash? Read the blogs and tell me what lies are there???

    #868822

    Health
    Participant

    000646 -“Health,

    Re: the makeup thing,

    I grew up in Lakewood and I know that evrey yeshivish Highschool has a rule against teenage girls wearing makeup. I cannot imagine that Satmar Chasidim are less makpid on this.”

    Now I understand your hatred towards Frum people -a lot of kids growing up here become very disillusioned. This has to do with the way this town is run. The makeup issue was not my post -I just repeated it. Anyway the poster said -she said she didn’t wear makeup or very little till her marriage, but a former colleague said she wore normal makeup everyday that she taught when she was single.

    “Do you not see how little sense you make, and how you contradict yourself??”

    No, there is no contradiction! Yes, I am objective, but that doesn’t mean I can’t add -it’s common sense from what I’ve seen so far – that her book is full of lies. You are still objective if you know 2 + 2 = 4. You don’t have to wait till you actually add everything up. That’s why I went to read an excerpt online to prove to myself that my thought process was correct. And I didn’t have to go far to find the lie about Chinuch.

    But you can’t possibly see the truth, can you?

    Please tell me what occurred to you here in this town as a kid, that made you become bias against Orthodox Judaism?

    #868823

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    To Feif, soliek, 000646 and zahavasdad,

    Why are you so desparate to prove the book is true?

    Can you explain this to us? (Well soliek said that it was the best book he ever read, so I understand his reason. Thoough he has a very low threshold for the best book, unless it is because it has lots of paragraphs)

    As far as lies in the book, there are websites that list out hundreds of lies, including the reviews on Amazon. Why do you not go there are start dealing with the lies in the book line by line.

    #868824

    soliek
    Member

    the bedroom stuff shocked me…that should have been kept private especially since she said that she felt violated when her husband told his sister about what had happened.

    a mamin: i am reading that blog. as to why you should read the book if you claim to be calling her out on lies…how can you know that shes lying if you dont know what shes saying?

    #868825

    up to page 10 and nothing new said since page 1

    #868826

    Feif Un
    Participant

    I looked at the website. Here are some of the things they harp on:

    She said 50 feet when really it’s less, more like 15 feet. Is that seriously what you’re going against? Misjudging distance?

    Then she says feet stomping on stone. What’s the problem with that? That the floor isn’t stone? Oh no, the entire story must be false!

    You know the old story about the Rav giving a drasha? He says, “So many people here take the train every morning. Let’s say one day you’re trying to make the 7:14 train, but you’re running late.”

    He goes on to compare the train to teshuva, and running, while the train is waiting, etc. A very nice drasha. At the end, one man comes up to him and says, “Rabbi, your speech was completely wrong. The train doesn’t come at 7:14. There’s a 7:08 and a 7:23, but no 7:14 train!”

    The guy obviously completely missed the point, and is discounting everything on a stupidity. They are doing the same thing.

    #868827

    Feif Un
    Participant

    I am not trying to defend her. I think the book is a huge chillul Hashem. However, I still won’t make things up just to bash it. If you want to bash it, say it’s a chillul Hashem. You won’t get an argument from me there. Saying that the whole thing is a fabrication, and she made everything up, is wrong. Just say it’s a chillul Hashem, and leave it at that.

    #868828

    big deal
    Participant

    I’ve been around df for a short while in her adult life. She is a very smart and convincing woman. She is extremely talented and puts up a great act at the drop of the hat.

    Her views are extremely twisted – not just on religious issues – and she has the ability to convey whatever she wants using basic facts and distorting them just a drop to make them work for her.

    Obviously, she is so full of filth and would flirt with men she’s barely known for five seconds.

    Explain that to me. She claims she knew nothing about men/boys, had an uncomfortable marriage getting used to all that’s involved, and on the other hand she was perfectly comfortable flirting with men and starting the most despicable, dirty conversations possible. This was all before she went off.

    Victimization. It is the best excuse anyone can come up with to do whatever they please. Anyone can claim they are a victim. We all are. Nobody has a perfect life. Some have worse some have better. If some people choose to look away from the tools and circumstances Hashem put into their lives to overcome and grow that’s their problem. Its also the quickest way to sink and wallow in the shallow secular world of taivos.

    #868829

    soliek
    Member

    by the way when i said it was one of the best books i had ever read i meant as far as craft goes…not content. it was one of the most well written memoirs i have ever read.

    #868830

    big deal
    Participant

    I did not post the above to bash DF. I posted to explain a drop who we are speaking about.

    And the truth is that is doesn’t really matter. She wrote a book the way she decided to write it. Why are we getting all defensive. Whichever way we choose to call her on her lies its basically a she say he say type of thing. I say ignore it.

    She chose to leave our beautiful way of life with all its so called problems. That’s her loss. Where did she really end up? Which women in the secular world doesn’t have to work continually to impress the opposite gender with the way they look, act or whatever? Is the rate of rapist and murderers there so much lower than in our circles? It just doesn’t get into the news anymore. It’s so commonplace.

    What did she run from and where did she run to. CRABCAKES. I’m impressed.

    #868831

    Naysberg
    Member

    The book is replete with fabrications. One after another. Many of them have been pointed out on this thread and yet her cheerleaders here are still in denial.

    #868832

    big deal
    Participant

    And one more thing. She turned her back on Yiddishkeit. Why in the world would it be helpful for people to start bashing Satmar now. You think that if she would be Litvish, Lubavitch, MO, Sephardi or whatever she wouldn’t be writing this book. Don’t delude yourselves. She couldn’t control her Taivos and that is what brought her to very notable place where she is today. (nowhere)

    This is not a time for us to start accusing each other about what we’re each doing wrong. It’s time to look at each other and see what we’re each doing right so that we can learn from each other how to be better people.

    #868833

    000646
    Participant

    “Now I understand your hatred towards Frum people -a lot of kids growing up here become very disillusioned. This has to do with the way this town is run.”

    Dont besmirch Lakewood! It is for the most part run according to the ideals of Halacha and frum Yiddiskeit.

    “Please tell me what occurred to you here in this town as a kid, that made you become bias against Orthodox Judaism?”

    Rest assured the things I have seen people whose names you would recognize do would make any human being with a shread of human decency vomit.

    Apprently though this is not the case for the people you seem to hold so highly of. They Know what goes on (if they are not doing it themselves) I have told them myself and they aknowledge it.

    They refuse to take a stand. Please do not tell me they do not like to make public statements, because I could hear that. But you see; they have no problem Shreiing about Tznius or threatning to throw kids out of school if their parents have internet. They have no problem making public statements about anything, they even talk about same gender marriage publicly!!!!

    “But you can’t possibly see the truth, can you?”

    Oh I have seen the truth WAY too clearly. It is so disgusting that it gives me nightmares

    #868834

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Dont besmirch Lakewood! It is for the most part run according to the ideals of Halacha and frum Yiddiskeit.

    One Caveat: The antics needed to get your child into a school is reason enough for someone to want to go OTD (I don’t know if that is Al Pi Halacha or not).

    #868835

    000646
    Participant

    “Why are you so desparate to prove the book is true?”

    I am just asking you to prove it isn’t!

    #868836

    Naysberg
    Member

    Many lies have been exposed on this thread repeatedly. By keep asking what the lies are, doesn’t make her lies disappear.

    #868837

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    No lies have been exposed. What has been exposed is anger towards customs.

    Calling a woman dirty is not a lie, Its a statement in anger not understanding the ritual

    #868838

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Naisberg: So please combine them in a clear post, without spewing anything else along with it which just makes it tough to read. Here’s how it should look:

    *Lie 1

    *Lie 2

    *Lie 3

    Would that be so difficult?

    #868839

    msseeker
    Member

    Feif, you oiber-chuchem, you missed the point entirely. This is not a mashal, it’s supposedly a true story besmirching an entire kehilla with many innocent victims! One blatant lie gives the lie to the whole story, let alone dozens of lies. If 15 feet to her looks like 50 feet, and she says it without the tiniest doubt, how does “15 feet” of rejection, or suffering, or schooling (news flash: she attended Satmar all of 4 years), look to her? Talk about tall tales!

    Naisberg, I can’t wait to read your new book. CR rule #5163: If you’re right, you’ll be ignored.

    #868840

    000646
    Participant

    Gavra,

    You said,

    “One Caveat: The antics needed to get your child into a school is reason enough for someone to want to go OTD (I don’t know if that is Al Pi Halacha or not).”

    It is Al Pi Halacha. Schools are mechuyiv to make sure that the precious neshamalach in their care are protected from bad influences. Of course your arn’t supposed to say that Publicly. Actually in public you are supposed to print classified ads in the Yated sating that your school dosn’t discriminate in order to receive Government funds. (you can see those ads evrey week in the yated).

    And if a B”D or Rav paskens that the children are a negative influence because the parents didn’t listen to something they said then they are a bad influence and the schools should not and cannot accept them.

    There is a slight issue that using the threat of harming the wellfare of little kids in order to blackmail their parents into going along with what you think they should do seems morally repungnant to some…But hey that’s why you gotta keep quiet about it in public!!

    #868841

    A new question popped into my head today, while reading an article on The Forward about her new form of dress.

    I began wondering how she can afford to live on the Upper East Side, which has some of the most expensive housing in the entire country, plus send her son to Park East Day School, where tuitions run in excess of $20k? Surely she didn’t get a huge alimony settlement? And all this before her book was even released. Just curious.

    #868842

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    And if a B”D or Rav paskens that the children are a negative influence because the parents didn’t listen to something they said then they are a bad influence and the schools should not and cannot accept them.

    Unless you have Kesef. An in-law relative of mine had his PHD give a nice five figure donation (Other side, not mine, I wish I had a PHD) to get his grandchild in. With inflation being what it is, you probably need six figures at this point.

    As I said, justification enough for someone to go OTD.

    Poe’s law may be applying itself here.

    #868843

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Sarah Lawrence (Tuition there is like $50K) was more than willing to give an ex-Hasidic woman free tution. They also probably introduced her to many rich and powerful women

    #868844

    a mamin
    Participant

    00646 probably learnt in Satmer….lol!

    #868845

    soliek
    Member

    when you pitch a book before its written the publisher advances you money against future sales

    #868846

    big deal
    Participant

    The point is not to expose her lies/ distortions/ propaganda (call it what you want) which, quite frankly most of them cannot be discussed on this forum anyway.

    Going back to the original op- its effect on us: The point is to appreciate the value of what Hashem has given us in terms of the mitzvos that teach us clearly a respectable way of life. Thank Hashem for teaching us family values and for giving most of us community support. And most of all daven that our children and us should see the beauty of the torah and remain true to its teachings.

    The longer this thread and all other df exposing websites go on, the more we empower her. Why don’t we just close this thread and let her go away.

    #868847

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    000646,

    “You say I am just asking you to prove it isn’t!”

    A) I would think that someone who is making vile aspersions about an entire community would be the one required to provide the proof. Perhaps not in your backwards mind.

    B) There have been numerous blatant lies and inconsistencies pointed out here and in other forums, therefore I am satisfied with the proof that she is a liar. (She has no chezkas kashrus at all, certainly not when she is saying LH at the least and actuall rechilus and motzei shem ra. I am sure she has a din of Rasha about whom it is permitted to say loshon hora) If you chose to ignore all the proofs, that is only because of your own inherent bias. It is definitely not sechel.

    #868848

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Zahavasdad,

    You are just plain asinine, your comment are sillier and sillier.

    Feif,

    On many forums they have been laid out just like that. Your chosing to ignore them is your failing, no one else’s.

    #868849

    Guter yid
    Participant

    Dear Soliek, if I offended you then I a’m apologizing, I didn’t mean to label you with something that you aren’t in reality, but honestly, reading your posts I was sure you don’t understand her numerous lies and blown up stories because you’re unfamiliar with yiddishkeit and torah, so if you are a shomer torah, be me moichel for that accusation.

    But, if you do have connection to torah as you said, how come you don’t see anything wrong in this filthy book, and you side and fight for this evil writer, how do those 2 things go together?? We’ve heard misguided people going off derech, especially from broken homes, but what justification does this unfortunate lady have to go and publicize a book against hashem, the torah and yidden? and what justifies you to side with this trash, and cover for it?

    Regarding the title ‘meshumedes’ I called this freak, is because this is exactly what the meshumadim used to do in all generations back to churban habayis till our times, they used to publicize excerpts from the torah or chazal and the sonai yisrael were poking fun of it, they used to publish books mocking yidden and the torah just like this woman does, so she worked to deserve this title meshumedes.

    #868850

    000646
    Participant

    nishtdayngesheft,

    What I have seen, is people saying:

    1.) “Its a lie that single teenage chasidishe girls are told not to wear makeup”

    When I know due to the fact that I grew up in a yeshivishe community that this is what is done and that girl’s highschools have rules against it.

    2.)”Its a lie that satamr teenage girls are told not eat out”

    When I know that it is told very strongly to teenage girls (and boys for that matter) that it doesn’t pas for them to do so

    3.)”Its a lie that teenage satmar girls are told not to be out at night after a certain time.”

    When I know for a fact that there is a takana in Satmar to that affect and that Beis Ruchel Dsatmar has such a rule

    4.) “She claimed a murder happend in Kj when it didn’t”

    Having read her book I know she makes no such claim

    You see; you have to forgive me but so far the only people I have caught lying are the people calling HER a liar!

    #868851

    Doswin
    Member

    Yup, 000646. Skip all the lies she made that were brought up and instead put quotation marks around comments that are quoting no one but your invented straw man quotes that do not exist as real quotes. Keep on ignoring what has been cited here over and over.

    #868852

    000646
    Participant

    Ok maybe I missed something. To be clear you admit that,

    1.)Single teenage chasidishe girls are told not to wear makeup”

    2.)That satamr teenage girls are told not eat out

    3.)Teenage satmar girls are told not to be out at night after a certain time.

    4.) That she doesn’t falsely say a murder happened in KJ when in fact it didn’t

    5.) You are claiming nobody has denied the 4 points I made above (by calling my quotes “straw men”) (?!)

    I am confused. WHAT did she lie about according to you?????

    #868853

    Feif Un
    Participant

    I keep asking for a clear, concise list. Instead of a list, all I get is more hatred spewed a me. Can someone please put together a clear, concise list? Is it really all that much to ask? If someone ca prove she’s a liar, I’ll accept it, but I’m still waiting on proof!

Viewing 50 posts - 451 through 500 (of 718 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.