February 22, 2012 12:38 am at 12:38 am #868854
“Guter yid: But, if you do have connection to torah as you said, how come you don’t see anything wrong in this filthy book, and you side and fight for this evil writer, how do those 2 things go together??”
You obviously haven’t read the rest of the thread because if you had, you would have seen the answer to both questions.
I am, and have been, modeh that the book is disgusting and wrong. But it also begs the question: Why did she write it? So, many people in this thread were quick to call her a money grubber, spreading her “lies” for a quick buck, but that’s not what I saw when I read her book. Incidentally, she does say that she saw her story as a way out, a way to acquire the means necessary to “escape” from her marriage and her chassidishe life, but upon reading the book, that’s not what jumps out as the primary motivator.
How to even begin describing what I felt and what I thought while reading that book…
I see a person whose mother walked out on her. I see a little girl ashamed of her mentally deficient father and the stares, tsks, and “oy, what a rachmanus”s they got walking down the street together. I see a budding teenager raised by grandparents who couldn’t possibly understand her; her grandfather the unreachable, unattainable archetype. I see a young girl almost being raped by her older cousin. I see her crying in her bedroom, crumbling under the brunt of that terrible secret. I see her tossing and turning in bed as demons invade her dream.
I see a kid wondering why her cousin is being locked in a room rather than receiving treatment for schizophrenia. I see a young woman thrust into a marriage before she was ready. Someone who had her marital issues trotted out before the rest of her family like so much dirty laundry.
Now ask yourself this: After all that, who wouldn’t feel disenfranchised? Who wouldn’t be resentful toward her community? I’m sure she knew better when she wrote her book, but we all do aveiros and we all know better. Think back to the last time YOU sinned, ask yourself if you knew better? Did you know better the last time you told lashon hara? Why did you say it then, because it was a juicy story? Her excuse is better than yours.
What I just said doesn’t justify her book, it explains it. Her book, not through what it does say but rather through what it doesn’t, reveals many serious flaws that we have in our communities. UNorthodox is, perhaps, an improper method of presentation, but I believe there is what to be learned from it.February 22, 2012 3:10 am at 3:10 am #868855
She claimed that women do not do those things. You changed to teenage girls. You have thus proven two people are liars. Her and you.
Lists are all over the place, its not neccesary to repeat them all.
Here’s a good one though. She claimed that she knew nothing of marital relations until right before her marriage. Her teachers have said that she used to loudly talk explicitly about “relations” and specific acts in detail when she was just a young teenager. That is a blatant lie. (And a pretty common sign of bi-polar disorder, which fits with the lies and all else).February 22, 2012 3:53 am at 3:53 am #868856
646 -I think I might know you -what do you do?
If I do we can discuss this in person.February 22, 2012 3:57 am at 3:57 am #868857
Feif Un -“I keep asking for a clear, concise list. Instead of a list, all I get is more hatred spewed a me.”
The reason is simple that you get cursed out -I gave you a list, amongst others, but you keep denying that you ever got one.
Maybe you should splurge on a pair of reading glasses. You don’t need to see to type!February 22, 2012 4:37 am at 4:37 am #868858
can someone please approve my previous post?February 22, 2012 6:33 am at 6:33 am #868859Medium Size ShadchanMember
You see; you have to forgive me but so far the only people I have caught lying are the people calling HER a liar!
Yes make-up, no make-up, yes restaurants, no restaurants, yes being out after dark, no being out after dark, etc,
More importantly, in summary, does she bring honor upon our religion and those who observe it, or shame?
Is our religion and those who observe it, more worthy of honor or shame?
In your eyes: What has she tried to accomplish with her book, and what has she successfully accomplished with her book? What was her primary goal? What are the benefits of the book? Are there any down sides?February 22, 2012 7:20 am at 7:20 am #868860tahiniMember
A Woman outside bklyn thanks for the names of those organisations helping those struggling within the community, very good to hear about them.Thank you for your post, of course if someone is unhappy and feels hated they cannot envisage ever fitting in.
Just a word of caution, I have read the book by Deborah Feldman, lent it by a non Jewish work colleague who found it rivetting . We have spoken about it at length, and I must say it comes across as an autobiography, nothing more or less. A young eloquent girl felt suffocated and ran away, she has produced her account of her upbringing and struggles. End of. Her perceptions are not mine, I recognise she has the right and skill to present a very different point of view to me. I hope the energy and amount of bile spent on critizing her would be spent on helping those in need receptive to support and comfort. If you are raised without love it serves to disengage you from your surroundings.
May I also add as a teacher of young adults, we need to focus on ALL the young in our community, let children of divorced or disadvantaged parents feel included too, irrespective of family break down details.February 22, 2012 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #868861A Woman Outside BrooklynParticipant
Soliek, I know that publishers give advances, but how could they have known that the book would be this successful, and therefore have given her an advance large enough for her to live on the UES and send her son to a very expensive day school?
I hope you get an advance that is at least half as generous.February 22, 2012 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #868862thehockMember
In defense of soliek –
Many of us are missing his point here (IMHO). Imagine yourself as a little girl, whose mother has left her in her grandparents’ care, her father is not 100%, and whose grandfather is raising her the way he was probably raised – with precious little affection.
Imagine yourself growing up in a family-centric community, and never having Mommy attend PTA, or watch your siddur play, or bake hamantashen with you.
I actually have a little sympathy for this…person…although certainly more for those whose names she dragged in the mud.
BTW, to those of us who are interested in mental health issues, she displays all the typical behaviors of HPD. And the real question is, how will the next HPD child in Satmar be treated?
Hashem is the True Judge. It is not our place to judge her, but her actions we can certainly judge.February 22, 2012 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #868864a maminParticipant
00646 and Feif Un : I don’t get it, you people keep asking for proof that she lied. Have you read these last 11 pages? Or maybe you are on 4th grade level of reading because you went to Satmer? The halochos in a bed room that she STATES are all lies!! She exaggerated immensely. I don’t need to point that out!
For all of us who would love to see this thread FINALLY CLOSED, why don’t we just boycott this thread and maybe they won’t have anyone else to argue with so IT WILL FINALLY DISAPPEAR!!February 22, 2012 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #868866
(Pasted from Verizon)
Who would have guessed that Anti-Semitism could lurk in the allegedly autobiographical words of a young Jewish woman? But they have, in the memoir of Deborah Feldman and the stories she tells about growing up Satmar.
I don’t think that Feldman meant to create this monster, yet the intentions, for good or bad, cannot stop the destruction this creation is causing. Many in our community say we should let it slide, to ignore it because it will go away in a few weeks and is not worth giving a platform to. I vehemently disagree. I think if we don’t address this lie we are no better than Ms. Feldman because we allow a lie to spread.
If we allow a New York Times bestseller filled with half-truths, untruths and outright lies to be the uncontested representation of the truth of our lifestyle and a butchery of Halacha, we are doing ourselves a disservice of the highest proportion. The wicked Joseph Goebbels, The Nazi minister of propaganda, used to repeat Hitler’s “Big Lie,” which paraphrased over time simply says, “If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it.”
While we ignore Uncensored, and encourage those in our community to ignore it, and say, “Why don’t you let it slide into oblivion?” the big lie is repeated and repeated and repeated. Yes. Obviously even negative PR plays into the hands of such a book, because any controversy is good for book sales. But by not contesting the truth and speaking out, a larger evil grows–that of the “Big Lie.”
As of today “Unorthodox” is a New York Times best seller, and I’m not surprised. It’s a book about us, about religious Jews, with our Yarmulkes and traditional dress, our religiously protective and seemingly mysterious lifestyle. We do seem somewhat mysterious to the general population. Because they don’t know the truth, they depend on whatever crumbs of information comes their way. Many of those reading this book already think we are all extremely wealthy. They whisper all kinds of rumors about how we conduct our personal lives, what we believe, how we live–all based on the stories of a young girl who admits she hated, refused and resented everything about her faith, her people and her community. To look for her to deliver a fair and balanced perspective of Orthodox Judaism is to expect an atheist to describe Christianity.
This is not like “kosher yoshke” or another book that we might not like but which doesn’t directly impact you and I. This is a direct attack on who we are, on the Torah, and on all that we hold dear.
I do not doubt that Ms. Feldman grew up in a tremendously difficult environment. I do not contest the fact that her decisions and her perceptions in life are hers to make. We must all live with the consequences of our decisions and now it is time for her to understand how her actions have affected all Jews.
I am not attacking Ms. Feldman. I am championing truth. Look around and see how you and your family’s beautiful and kosher lifestyle are being put into the average American’s consciousness in the most degrading way. If left unchecked, that image of you will change the way practically every non-Jew you come across will perceive you. Is that what you want?
I don’t know how I ended up being the person to write this; I’m no great scholar. But someone has to step up to the plate–to take a stand. This is not the time to be reticent.
It was during the lifetime of many of us, or our parents that the first sparks of hatred against Judaism flickered in the darkness–fanned by perceptions, rumors and gossip that the Jews were a super evil and backward cult, both in Europe and in the United States. The coals of the fires of Anti-Semitism have been banked since WWII, but they have never been extinguished. Those who fanned the flames of hatred against the Jews half a century ago, can quickly fan the flames again, intentionally or not.
There are enough well written pieces and reviews about the book and how its author wrote a compelling work of fiction that we should be worried. Uncensored gives a platform to those who envision orthodox Jews with the same paintbrush that allowed the perception of Jews as evil and subhuman “untermentchen”. Last time this happened, Hitler herded into the camps and the ovens in Germany and Poland. I am not over reacting.
All mighty oaks grow from small acorns. A liberal media, and a world of readers hungry for criticism of orthodox Jews are watering the acorn this young woman has planted. The well-written and positive reviews of this book are fertilizing an idea, a perception, a fear and a hatred of Jews among nations who do not know us.
This is WHY we need to not bury our heads in the sand and wait for this to just go away. We need to come out and forcefully say, “This is not us at all.” It would be even better if Simon and Schuster sees the hullabaloo and call her bluff. If publishers could see that this book is her fictionalized anthology of every camp story she ever heard, along with some salt and pepper added for taste and shock value, perhaps they could see that she is destroying their credibility. The public trusts publishing houses to print the truth as truth and fiction as fiction.
If you and I don’t respond by saying (pick yours) “I’m not Satmar, I’m not Chassidic. I’m not Charedi. I’m not Jewish, this doesn’t talk about ME!” then let me assure you, the only mark you are making is a mark in the sand that will get washed away the next time the tide comes in.
Anti-Semitism is on the rise. The economy is bad. When people don’t have money to spread around they are forced to face the reality of their situation. They create realities for themselves based on the lies of others and of their own fears.
This book has been prepared for publication for a while. Like popcorn, these types of stories and books used to pop once in awhile, and then be forgotten about and become silent. In today’s political and economic climate, the popping is not going away.
The sounds of Anti-Semitic stories are being heard more often. The outside world is interested in these stories, and not in a positive way, but in a way they can use to justify hatred, discrimination and attacks upon our faith. With the rise of blogs in which many unhappy (or happy but bored) individuals can share their thoughts, most bloggers understand that unless they post something unusual and attention grabbing, like Ms. Feldman, their aspirations of fame will remain unmet.
They therefore blog, making sure to take a grain of truth (if that) and fabricate an entire story out of it. They then say, with a total straight face, that their fabrication is true, whether it is or not.
When these blogs do take off, the blogger is under increasing pressure to create even more content with even greater shock value. It is the shock value that keeps the readers reading, the media reporting and the comment cravings satisfied. It’s how the “Big Lie” gets spread. Say it often enough, say it in enough places, have people who are seen as credible and responsible say it on enough blogs, or on the news and have it go uncontested and pretty soon, it becomes truth to those who don’t seek the truth.
I for one, want to be seen and respected for my choices in life. How about you?
Rabbi Issamar GinzbergFebruary 22, 2012 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #868867miritchkaMember
Being that i did meet this woman when she was a teen and seemed totally ok, i did read as much as i could about her and what is going on. I am shocked, hurt, and full of pity for this lost soul…
big deal: i have to say that while reading the posts here i’ve been drawn to your posts. You write so respectfuly and with such clarity!February 22, 2012 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #868868metrodriverMember
Guter Yid; I just read your comment (Among others.) Even though I did not read ALL the other posts. Just enhancing the points that you bring forward.
a) Your impression of “Zahavasdad”‘s depth of knowledge & connection to the way of Torah is the same as mine.
b) The general consensus, even among the vast majority of the OTD community (And there is a sizable one out there.) is, that the memoir by Deborah Feldman a/k/a Sarah’leh Berkovic is substantially untrue, and has done more harm than good, even to their cause.
c) It is not driven by anger or the perception of hurt feelings. Rather by opportunism.February 22, 2012 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #868869
Soleik – the author has taken a lot of basic values and twisted them around to work for her own cause.
What makes you think she’s not doing the same thing about her personal story to play on our emotions to make us all feel guilty for her leaving?
As a side note, you deal with victims of abuse. Would it make sense for a victim of an attempted rape to throw caution to the wind and seriously flirt… (and end in serious problems)? I would think they would try to protect themselves as much as possible and try not to attract unwanted attention. Think Elizabeth Smart.
I hope this made sense and I am trying to stay away from too many details.February 22, 2012 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #868870
olook…theres the post. its up there ^ have fun reading it people, its been approved 🙂February 22, 2012 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #868871
Sorry, pasted from Amazon. Mods, please correct.February 22, 2012 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #868872
thehock: i didnt get the impression that she had HPD and i spoke to her in person.February 22, 2012 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #868873
“As a side note, you deal with victims of abuse. Would it make sense for a victim of an attempted rape to throw caution to the wind and seriously flirt… (and end in serious problems)? I would think they would try to protect themselves as much as possible and try not to attract unwanted attention. Think Elizabeth Smart.”
actually, as it happens, a common symptom of RTS is promiscuity…counter-intuitive, i know, but true. i dont know if she has RTS per se, but its not uncommon for rape victims to become promiscuous.
lav davka that thats what made her flirt…she may have flirted because she wanted to…im jussayinFebruary 22, 2012 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #868874
nishtdayngesheft: I haven’t read the book yet, but I’ll trust you that she wrote that she knew nothing before her wedding. Where did her teachers say these things? I’d like to see it for myself.February 22, 2012 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #868875
Theory: Devorah Feldman = Bar Kamtza
Rejected for bad reasons, and therefore telling half-truths to put Satmer in a bad light. It worked, and whom does the Gemorah blame for Bar Kamtza? Use this as a springboard to fix the issues that are discussed, instead of trying to stuff them under the carpet together withe everything else.
MS: He brings in too many Holocaust comparisons to be credible. Your author is using scare tactics, which makes me wonder what the real reason is why he is scared.
Personally, as I have said before, you/we should not care what other people think. Avraham HaIvri was against the entire world, but he was right and followed Hashem. That is what counts, not trying to get the world to “like” you.February 22, 2012 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #868876
nishtdayngesheft: you wouldnt know bipolar if it punched you in the face.February 22, 2012 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #868877JaneDoe18Participant
When DF was interviewed on the View and was asked about her 1st meeting with her husband,
she said, regarding that conversation, “I couldn’t focus, and I couldn’t remember a word, after.”
Check it out on YouTube, at 3:40 into the video, “The View, Rejection of Hasidic Jews in Brooklyn. Deborah Feldman Book.”
That’s very interesting, considering that she described the entire conversation in Pages 129 through 131 of her book, which I have read.February 22, 2012 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #868879
I have actually been hit in the face and worse by someone with bipolar. In fact by more than one person with bipolar disorder. Yes diagnosed.
The descriptions are part of the general descriptions of people with bipolar disorder.February 22, 2012 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #868880Guter yidParticipant
Rabbi Isamar Ginzburg, thumbs up, very well said.
metrodriver, thanks for elaborating.
Soliek, still doesn’t make a bit of sense, that someone who pretends to be a full observant yid should be here around the clock to defend this garbage can filthy book full of lies, distortion, twists and exaggerations in order to make all frum yidden look bad. don’t day you’re not trying to defend it, because this is exactly what you’re doing, and this raises a big question mark, or an explanation mark.
gavra_at_work, first of all, she was not rejected, she had friends, and she was treated very fairly in school and everywhere, it was her decision to leave the torah life and go for her lusts.February 22, 2012 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #868881
soliek -“can someone please approve my previous post?”
Yes Bomb maniac -a lot of your post makes sense. But you aren’t going to get any sympathy from the posters here.
I remember me trying to explain the spitters’ reasons in Bais Shemesh and all I got here was that I was defending them.
I believe you that you’re just explaining her, but noone else will. I can do this because I’m intelectually honest.
No matter what her reason -I believe you just have to consider her “the one (fish) that got away”.
But no matter what her reason -people have to realize she did tremendous damage to the Frum community. This isn’t really excusable on her part. She fed the blood-thirsty, antisemitic population a nice tasty morsel. I’m not saying e/o in this country is like this, but it’s definitely more than a small minority.
A lot of people here don’t even realize they are antisemitic. When many potential employers told me they would never hire me because I wouldn’t work on Shabbos -they didn’t realize the underlying reason that they wouldn’t accommodate me – was due to their antisemitism. In reality, letting an employee off one day a week, (esp. a weekend day where business is much slower in most industry), would not cause any real financial damage to 99% of companies in this country.February 22, 2012 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #868882
you didnt read her book. if you did youd have seen the disclaimer before the introduction.February 22, 2012 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #868883
soleik – you didn’t answer the first part of my post.
It’s so easy to believe someone that comes crying with crocodile tears.February 22, 2012 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #868884
big deal: i sincerely doubt she lied about that.February 22, 2012 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #868885
nishtdayngesheft: i almost knew you were gonna say that. my apologies. she doesnt exhibit any signs of bipolar disorder. care to elaborate?
Guter yid: tell yourself whatever makes you happy.
Health: finally someone who understands meFebruary 22, 2012 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #868886
gavra_at_work, first of all, she was not rejected, she had friends, and she was treated very fairly in school and everywhere, it was her decision to leave the torah life and go for her lusts.
I have a bridge to sell you, great view of Willy.
If you think that this nebuch girl with her family situation was treated just like everyone else who conforms, and that the society had absolutly nothing to do with it, you are even more blind/desperate to attack her than others here, who are selective in their sight. I’ll choose not see you either. Besides, Bar Kamtza had a choice too, and the Rabbanan are blamed for pushing him into it.
Anyone else have anything to say about my theory?February 22, 2012 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #868887
nishtdayngesheft: I’m still waiting for an answer to this:
I haven’t read the book yet, but I’ll trust you that she wrote that she knew nothing before her wedding. Where did her teachers say these things? I’d like to see it for myself.
For all those who said I didn’t pay attention, can you please provide a source? If you’re accusing her of lying, I’d like to see where accusations are.February 22, 2012 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #868888
Yes. Where are the Rabbanan blamed in Gemarah?February 22, 2012 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #868889000646Participant
She claimed that women do not do those things. You changed to teenage girls. You have thus proven two people are liars. Her and you. ”
How Lomdish, your parents must be so proud! This comment is so disingenous that it speaks for itself!
Medium size Shadchan,
“More importantly, in summary, does she bring honor upon our religion and those who observe it, or shame?
Is our religion and those who observe it, more worthy of honor or shame?”
No religion or way of life is in of itself worthy of shame. People get that.
People also get that just because a way of life didn’t work for someone and they wrote memoir portraying it in a negative way that it doesn’t mean it dosn’t work for anyone.
When you can’t even admit to the practices your community does and stand by them (as opposed to calling someone who publicly states them a Liar). That is were the real disgrace is.February 22, 2012 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #868890ratzonMember
Soliek and others who are positively as opposed to negatively impressed with DF:
Had she been looking for knowledge, academic achievement and worldliness, she could have very well become a Sterns or Touro student, or a student of any college, worldwide, for that matter, such as Sarah Lawrence, and still stayed Orthodox, to a lesser or greater degree.
Thats the way it worked for the likes of Jack Lew and Senator Lieberman, two very well known political figures who remained Orthodox, to name two of hundreds of thousands worldwide.
That was too restrictive, obviously.
She speaks fondly of the organization which offers an even exchange- they help get you an education and at the same time help rid you of any religious feelings you might have, and help remove the guilt as well, with therapists and camaraderie there for that purpose. They organize road trips on Shabbat and take members to non-Kosher establishments.
Im sure you’re familiar with the organization she speaks highly of and supports.
What do you think of it?February 22, 2012 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #868891
Soleik – why that and not this. Knowing her, I wouldn’t consider a stretch of the imagination.
GAW – Nice point. But the difference is is that what happened to Bar Kamtzah really happened and what the author is saying doesn’t always add up. They did end up in the same place: twisting things around to make things work for them without considering the ramifications.
That said I will repeat what I’ve said before: This is not a time for us to start accusing each other about what we’re each doing wrong. It’s time to look at each other and see what we’re each doing right so that we can learn from each other how to be better people.
And, I might add: Keeping young women out of her future shelters.February 22, 2012 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #868892Guter yidParticipant
I have no time to be busy with debating same subjects again and again, yesterday a few leftists demanded to bring a list of lies in the book, (although it’s irrelevant if it’s lies or not), a few major lies were brought up – as an example for the rest of the book – by a few posters, now they are singing a different song, hence, why don’t you pity this “poor kid nebach”.. which in a way she may have had a more difficult life than the average friends of hers, but non of the above issues is relevant here, the issue is the mess she created with this nasty book she released for her personal gain and ego, same with her interviews, she is ready to sell her whole nation and brethren for her own silly interests, and this has no justification, all twists and pitying issues are irrelevant hereFebruary 22, 2012 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #868893
ratzon: Had she been taught that you can go to college, become Modern Orthodox (or some other group of frum Judaism) and still be considered a good, frum Jew, that might have happened. However, in Satmar areas, that is not the case. They are not taught that other ways of Judaism are just as correct as theirs.
I know that this post will cause a firestorm, but I stand by it. I was even talking to my brother last week (who learns in BMG) about this, and he brought it up – he said, “If she was only raised in any other group, she’d have been fine. Satmar teach that their way is the only way, and all others are doing it wrong!”
I also want to point out that I’m not positively impressed by her. I think the book is a huge chillul Hashem. I just don’t think it right to make false accusations, even against her.February 22, 2012 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #868894
Guter yid: I’m not singing a poor girl song. I was presented with a lie (about her knowledge or lack thereof before her wedding), and presented a question on it. I’m still waiting for an answer.February 22, 2012 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #868895
Yes. Where are the Rabbanan blamed in Gemarah?
The whole “The second Bais Hamikdash was destroyed due to Sinas Chinam” bit.
Listen, I don’t like the idea of this book either. You could also say (which the Gemorah says as well) that it is the fault of the Rabbonan who didn’t kill Bar Kamtza when they realized he was out to get them. However, if you do want to dismiss it (which I assume you do), the best way is to ignore it, not have an 11+ page thread on it. Who cares if it is the truth or not?
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t matter and those who matter don’t mind.”
Dr. SeussFebruary 22, 2012 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #868896
ratzon: Who said she wanted to remain orthodox? i think Footsteps is terrible, but im not seeing your point.
“Soleik – why that and not this. Knowing her, I wouldn’t consider a stretch of the imagination.”
you do realize that a person can tell a falsehood without lying…if you believe that something false is true then you have no compunction saying it as a truth even though, in reality, it is false.
take what she said about chinuch for example, i think its entirely plausible that to her that WAS the only definition of chinuch, and anything else didnt occur to her because she never saw it. so mitzad her, its possible that nothing she said was a lie, lemaaseh some of it wasnt true. therefore i have no problem believing her when she talks about her problems.
also in general when someone talks about problems like that im not quick to call them a liar. its not easy talking about it.
“That said I will repeat what I’ve said before: This is not a time for us to start accusing each other about what we’re each doing wrong.”
the two arent mutually exclusive.
Guter yid: are you chassidish?February 22, 2012 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #868898ratzonMember
Had she been taught that you can go to college, become Modern Orthodox (or some other group of frum Judaism) and still be considered a good, frum Jew, that might have happened. However, in Satmar areas, that is not the case. They are not taught that other ways of Judaism are just as correct as theirs.
Feif, ????and NOW she still doesnt know???? there are many levels of Orthodoxy and thats why she presently encourages others to become members of this anti-religious observance organization that feeds their members treif and takes them on trips on Shabbat?
Can I sell you Times Square?
With all her reading, she doesnt know about Orthodox people who are both educated and religious? Maybe someone ought to tell her. One thing would redeem her in my mind- her becoming a spokesperson with the idea that you can be both educated and religious. She says she feels more Jewish recently and eats treif. Not quite.
Soliek: Im glad we agree on that despicable immoral organization, whose goal is to erase any good feelings about Orthodox observance. I was thinking you might feel otherwise. Their goal is to make Deborah Feldmans out of every individual who comes their way for help with an education. Halevei there would be an organization that would offer the help they seek without destroying morality.February 22, 2012 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #868899
“It’s not easy talking about it.”
You’re right. But it sure is if it never happened, (Or if you were a consenting member to the crime.) and you’re trying to prey on people’s emotions.
You realize that sometimes it works to put her in a box – that’s how she viewed chinuch and didn’t know any better.
And sometimes it works for her to talk about heresay stories – i.e. murder… (only she was in the box. Her husband wasn’t)
You’re involved in special field of work and you tend to sympathize with otd teens that crosses your path as a victim and a nebach and they need help. While that is commendable it will only come to hurt you if you don’t evaluate the backrounds and personalities of people to make sure they are legit. It is naive to think that everyone going off and passing on the blame is saying the complete truth.
If you read the book and tried to read into her as a person you would realize that there is no person. There are a few personalities and whichever one causes the most sensationalism gets used.February 22, 2012 11:48 pm at 11:48 pm #868901
You can find it like anyone else did. I am not going to post links here.
If you were interested, it is easy to find. I did in about 3 minutes.
000646, Your response is childish. Understandibly.
If I were to be nasty, I would say that I know who my parents are.February 23, 2012 12:53 am at 12:53 am #868902
Big deal: nowhere did I blame anyone. I don’t blame anyone. Circumstance, however, happens and is always a factor in how a person turns out.
By the way, say what you want about her, but she is a success story in terms of life in general. Her past, and yet look at her now. She’s not a drug addict or an alcoholic, she’s now a noted author. Happens to be that she is no longer frum.
We are always ultimately responsible for our actions, and circumstance is almost never an excuse, but its a factor. If you want to understand why something happened, or if you want to know how to avoid it in the future, you need to understand how it came about.
I always tell the people I work with that despite their past they must take charge of their futures.
Someone above said that now that she knows better she should change…give her one good reason.February 23, 2012 1:21 am at 1:21 am #868903
nishtdayngesheft: All I see is some anonymous blog quoting an anonymous teacher. Sorry, that doesn’t cut it.
ratzon: I can relate to it, because I went through a similar thing. I was told “Our way or the highway”. I couldn’t live “their way”. I decided, if I’m going to hell, I might as well enjoy it. I wasn’t frum for a while. Thankfully, after a while, I realized they were wrong, and that I could be a good, frum Jew without being chareidi. I hope and pray that she realizes the same. I must point out that while I had many difficult times, it wasn’t close to what she went through. I wasn’t molested, I wasn’t forced into a marriage, etc.February 23, 2012 1:59 am at 1:59 am #868904cheftzeMember
If not being a druggie or drunk is the definition of success by the secular, soliek,I wish such a pinnacle of “success” upon all my enemies.February 23, 2012 2:10 am at 2:10 am #868905
soliek – I don’t know how what you’re saying responds to my post.
But in any case all I’m saying about her is to take her with a grain of salt. Both her life story and her views on her former culture.
Besides, which part of who she is right now is defined a success?
Feif: I challenge you to go into the satmar community and find out how many people – both male and female – are walking around with degrees of all sorts.February 23, 2012 2:23 am at 2:23 am #868906
The bit about her having overcome her struggles, living a reasonably normal life, being able to publicly address her problems, and being an author published by Simon and schuster…you may disagree with her struggles and the way she addresses them, but from a secular perspective she’s quite a success. There is what to be said about someone being able to come out of such a childhood in one piece; something cheftza would never understand.
I wish that she were still frum, I wish she still felt a connection, I wish she had the ability to divorce her religion from the confines of community and be frum because she wanted to be frum, not because others had specific expectations.February 23, 2012 2:37 am at 2:37 am #868907
By the way, I kind of think she missed the point of her own story. Her story is quite the coming of age story, and a fantastic example of overcoming adversity; she would have been better served, in my opinion, by focusing more on her parents, her attack, her cousin, stuff like that. If I get the chance to interview her is like to focus on that because the stigma and feeling of disconnection was almost secondary to the reasons behind it.February 23, 2012 2:49 am at 2:49 am #868908
“The whole “The second Bais Hamikdash was destroyed due to Sinas Chinam” bit.”
And you think the RABANAN were guilty of SINAS CHINAM? Where did you get this idea from?
I know, I know, it’s a velts-tooes. People put these 2 gemaras together and concoct this ridiculous accusation. Rabbi miller zt”l set me straight on that.
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