men banned from girls graduations

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  • #596762

    ymhtb1
    Member

    why do girls schools ban fathers from attending their daughters grauations? my last daughter is graduating this yr and the fathers are only allowed to attend by the guest speaker and the reception afterwards. this means i will not be able to see my daughter receive her diploma, and ultimately, graduate.

    and why are they doing this? because it is not tznius, or so they say. what has this world come to? since when is it not tznius for a father to see his daughter graduate. there is no singing or dancing, just four speeches by the valedictorians and salutitorians. all the girls are wearing these big fat gowns, which are definitely not an issue when it comes to tznius.

    so what are they trying to do? suffocate us with what they THINK is frummer? this is not frum, it’s downright stupidity! since when is it not tznius for girls to talk! i happen to know of many ppl who graduated from rebbitzen kaplan’s schools in bp and williamsburg, and the fathers were always invited! don’t tell me rebbitzen kaplan was not frum enough! cr, what’s ur opinion?

    #769009

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I’m ok with it. I think it is not very tznius for girls to be on stage making speeches to men.

    Even if you think it is ok, you should be able to see how someone else may have an issue with it.

    #769010

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Hmmm. We received the invitation to our daughters graduation this past friday and both mother and father were invited, to the whole program. Admittedly, it is a pre-1a graduation.

    All I can say in response to the OP is kul hamosif, goreah.

    #769011

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I hate sitting through speeches. At least now I have an legitimate excuse. They won’t let me sit and listen 🙂

    #769013

    cofeefan
    Member

    when he wasnt allowed to come to my H.S. graduation my father said he paid my tuition all through the years why cant he see what that money went to? unfortunately that didnt help anything and he still couldnt come!

    #769015

    Shrek
    Member

    gotta take the policies you like along with the ones you don’t when you choose a school for your kids.

    #769016

    you are aware you put this on yourself.

    you chose this school for your daughter.

    was the rest of her education good?

    was it worth all the tution you paid?

    so what if you don’t get to see if all money /effort you put in was worth it.

    #769017

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    PBA – if you are not comfortable with girls speaking then you don’t have to sit through

    Perhaps my daughter is not comfortable with you being there.

    #769018

    I just don’t understand. What’s the big deal?

    Its not like a guy who is being bored out of his mind with nothing but high school girls to look at will be a problem of tznius.

    DQB

    #769019

    charliehall
    Participant

    I you don’t like rules like this, don’t send your daughter there!

    #769020

    cv
    Participant

    If girl spent 12 years in this type of school, most likely she wants to be married to the boy, who will learn at least 12 years in a kollel. In this case the graduation is the only turning point from the time, when you will stop paying $ 5,000.00 per year to time, when you get ready to pay $50,000.00 a year to support your son-in-law. So, ask your wife to take a camera to graduation. Do not make a big deal.

    #769021

    gefen
    Participant

    Working on it – thanks for your post! You said it like it is!

    Shrek and Whatelseisleft – the school did not have this policy when our kids started there. My husband was allowed to attend the other graduations we had. Yes we are very happy with the education etc. But we are not happy about this “frum” decision. read the op’s comment about schools in boro park and williamsburg. are we frumer than they?

    CV – not all the girls are planning to marry full time learners. believe me, we cannot afford to support a kollel couple with $50,0000 a year. a lot of other parents are in the same position.

    #769022

    apushatayid
    Participant

    If you don’t like the rules, don’t send your daughter there is an excellent policy. What do you tell the fathers of those 8th grade girls whose schools instituted such a policy, this year and notified the parents of such a policy, after pesach.

    Again, I personally am for any policy that says I don’t have to sit and listen to anyone speak.

    #769023

    commonsense
    Participant

    are we really turning out better kids with all these rules? in our day there was no question about fathers coming to graduations and kids going off the derech were a tiny percentage of kids. now we are so frum fathers can’t see their daughters graduate but all we hear about is kids at risk. maybe the schools need to reevaluate some of these newer policies.

    #769024

    oomis
    Participant

    I am curious – does this mean that none of the Roshei Yeshivah or rabbonim are present at these graduations?

    #769026

    adorable
    Participant

    My father was allowed to come to my HS graduation but he did not. I did not need him there….I got my present and hug when I came home and that was enough for me. It was so boring for me to sit through, why would I make him sit there also?

    #769027

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    does this mean that none of the Roshei Yeshivah or rabbonim are present at these graduations?

    Yes, it does mean that.

    #769028

    oomis
    Participant

    Adorable: I am glad you got your hug and your present and that it was enough for you. I wonder if it was really enough for him, even if he said otherwise. It’s hard for me to envision a dad that would not take great nachas from seeing his daughter graduate (even more so if she were valedictorian) and I cannot understand why any father would be denied that nachas, “boring” or not.

    #769032

    gefen
    Participant

    Papa “does this mean that none of the Roshei Yeshivah or rabbonim are present at these graduations?

    Yes, it does mean that.”

    NO – It happens not to mean that. The Roshei Yeshiva and rabbonim who teach at the school WILL be there. In fact one or two of them will speak.

    #769033

    giggle girl
    Participant

    I’m devistated!!!!!!!!!!!! My father was allowed to go to all the other graduations in my family, and now he can’t come to mine?! My graduation is the only one in the family he wouldn’t be attending?! We are a very close family, and I want my father there! Why is my school doing this to me?! They are ruining such a potentially wonderful day! My father’s coming and that’s that!

    #769034

    mosherose
    Member

    Men have no busness being where there will be bunches of teenage girls. Thats how terrible things happen. Back in the old days you never had men going to womens graduations.

    #769035

    GumBall
    Member

    Um….Hello its his daughters graduation!! let both parent come!!

    #769036

    gefen
    Participant

    mosherose – EXCUSE ME??!! What old days are you talking about? I’m not going to say how many years ago I graduated. But let me say this. I went to a VERY FRUM SCHOOL (there were a lot of chassidish girls there too) and guess what? FATHERS WERE INVITED TO OUR GRADUATION!!! Yes – men with long beards and payos were there!

    Gumball – right on!!!

    #769037

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    this should be your worst nisayon in life, that you were not permitted to go to your daughter’s graduation. Get over it and be thankful for what you have. Many would do anything to be in your shoes.

    #769038

    brotherofurs
    Participant

    i feel bad for the father that can’t see their daughter graduate. i would have been so upset if my father didn’t come to mine, and i can’t imagine what it would have felt like for my friend who was valedictorian. if the men and women sit separately i don’t think it’s bad i guess it’s just the matter of tzenuis .

    #769039

    mosherose:

    in the old days girls didn’t go to school.

    #769040

    apushatayid
    Participant

    in the old days girls didnt memorize rambans either.

    #769041

    gefen
    Participant

    Commonsense: Great point!!!

    #769042

    gefen
    Participant

    Mods: where is the op’s post? also i noticed some other posts are missing as well. ex: the post from -working on it.

    one more comment for mosherose: “that’s how terrible things happen”? Oh – Please – give me a break. what terrible things happen from fathers going to a graduation? we’re not talking about a bunch of sick men stalking cute girls!

    #769043

    giggle girl
    Participant

    Personally I think that if fathers can’t come to graduations, then girls shouldn’t be allowed to have men as teachers. Many times girls sit in class and their legs are exposed whether it’s by accident or carelessness. If anything, the girls are much more tznius in the gowns on stage when we are completely covered. And if the issue is listening to girls speaking on stage, then men shouldn’t teach girls because girls have class conversations and the Rabeim hear their voices. Is there something that maybe I’m missing in this issue?

    #769044

    RABBAIM
    Participant

    Let the fathers be there for the Rabbanims drashos, menahels words, awards etc. and then make a mincha minyan (or Maariv minyan)in a different room when the 2 or 3 individual girls speak. Is this a good Peshara?

    #769045

    RABBAIM
    Participant

    To alleviate feelings of girls who do not want to speak in the presence of men… how about a video feed to a separate room?? this can alleviate and accomplish a lot for many people and their concerns!

    #769047

    mamashtakah
    Member

    Back in the old days you never had men going to womens graduations.

    Really? You’re old enough to know this? Please enlighten all of us and tell us where you picked up this particular pearl of wisdom. Let us know which schools and which years.

    #769048

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    are we really turning out better kids with all these rules? in our day there was no question about fathers coming to graduations and kids going off the derech were a tiny percentage of kids. now we are so frum fathers can’t see their daughters graduate but all we hear about is kids at risk. maybe the schools need to reevaluate some of these newer policies.

    So that’s what’s causing kids at risk! Fathers not going to graduations!

    #769049

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    To alleviate feelings of girls who do not want to speak in the presence of men

    IMHO, those girls are missing something from their high school education, i.e. a public speaking course.

    #769050

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Friends:

    I am bothered by this thread. I don’t think anybody has a right to criticize how someone else observes tznius.

    If a school has decided that their standards of tznius are that their young women should not give public speeches in front of their friend’s fathers, that is a perfectly legitimate expression of the school’s standard.

    As it happens, I find it surprising that most of you would not personally have a problem with it. This is a pretty basic standard in our world, that women do not speak at public events before men.

    Why do you think your shul doesn’t have women speakers? (SJS, Charlie, yes, I know your shul does.)

    Is it because they have nothing worth hearing? I doubt it. It is because it is not tznius.

    #769051

    charliehall
    Participant

    On this one, I agree with popa. The shuls I attend do have women speakers — I heard one give a shiur just this past Shabat. (The topic was mikvaot in America.) But if the school decides on a policy, it is their right to have that policy, and my right to send my daughter to a different school if I don’t like it. Everyone who sent their daughters to this school knew their hashkafah and I do not have any sympathy.

    This is VERY different from the recent doctoring of a photograph to remove Sen. Clinton’s image; they could simply have not published any photograph at all but instead chose to mislead and published a photograph that implied that she was not present. I have no sympathy for the editors who published the doctored photograph.

    #769052

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Men have no busness being where there will be bunches of teenage girls. Thats how terrible things happen.

    Yes, that’s right. Because I went to my daughter’s graduation, all sorts of terrible things happened.

    If you truly feel that terrible things happen to girls because their fathers attend their graduations, then I am personally willing to take responsibility for everything terrible that happens to every girl in that class for the rest of their lives.

    The Wolf

    #769055

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Thanks charlie!

    #769056

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Everyone who sent their daughters to this school knew their hashkafah and I do not have any sympathy.

    Unless this policy represents a shift to the right and was sprung on parents when it was too late to change anything*.

    The Wolf

    * I don’t know that to be the actual here — I’m speaking in the hypothetical.

    #769057

    “Yes, that’s right. Because I went to my daughter’s graduation, all sorts of terrible things happened.”

    Come on, Wolfish.

    If a son comes from school, and says he was talking with girls, but nothing happened…so it’s ok?

    Let me wager a guess that bored men staring at even the most tznius of women has at least one time caused a bad thought etc. It’s pashut.

    I am not saying its the worst situation by any means and it is definitely mutar (I am not posek but I think its obvious)…but its not ideal IMO and a school that chooses to do so is hardly deserving of “TOO FRUM” sticker.

    Not to mention, the nachas one gets from a daughter should not be the giving a diploma in a funky hat and gown. It should the work and maturity gained from the years of High School. I do sympathize with a father who has shelled out the bucks and does want that Kodak moment…but l’maaseh its not a particular yiddishe sach to be obsessed with a graduation ceremony.

    DQB

    #769059

    smr
    Member

    Maybe it’s because the women should not be speaking in front of men?

    We have a Rav speak in my daughter’s school, but he comes in when it’s his turn to speak, and then leaves immediately.

    #769060

    “It’s far from pashut. You’re basically accusing all men of being disgusting lechers.”

    I did not mean to say all men are “lechers”. I just that such a thing has occurred. My fault for my lack of clarity.

    “That’s a separate argument and really has nothing to do with the issue at hand since the same applies to boys’ graduations.”

    I admit I should also have been for clear. The argument is as follows. If I want to send by son or daughter to a place where I get to go to a competitive basketball game, have him or her join the Model UN, and wear a frilly hat then that is my choice, fine.

    But if I want to send them to a school (the type I am assuming that is being discussed) who are not overly influenced by secular culture but rather Torah hashkafa etc., then what I am doing harping about my lack of being to able to attend a graduation ceremony and thereby denigrating the administration? If I didn’t like their views then I can send them to another school or gather people and make a new school. Just like them but with mixed graduation ceremonies!

    DQB

    #769061

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I did not mean to say all men are “lechers”. I just that such a thing has occurred. My fault for my lack of clarity.

    Has it happened? Sure. Lots of things happen — but we don’t base public policy on a “it once happened” basis. If we were to do that, our lives would be so restricted that we would barely be able to do anything at all.

    The Wolf

    #769062

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Let me wager a guess that bored men staring at even the most tznius of women has at least one time caused a bad thought etc. It’s pashut.

    It’s far from pashut. You’re basically accusing all men of being disgusting lechers.

    Eek! A Male!

    #769064

    Pac-Man
    Member

    Wolfish: Its a natural reaction for normal men. So it has to be acknowledged that it occurs and steps taken to reduce its potential. That’s all I believe DQB’s point is.

    #769065

    mewho
    Participant

    are mothers allowed at sons graduations????

    #769067

    mewho
    Participant

    what about siblings?

    grandparents?

    #769068

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Tzniyus is actually getting out of control – and I don’t mean the way our girls dress. I mean the focus on Tzniyus.

    I tend to agree with this. Women and girls think it is the most important thing in the torah.

    It isn’t.

    #769069

    cv
    Participant

    “Why do you think your shul doesn’t have women speakers?

    Is it because they have nothing worth hearing? I doubt it. It is because it is not tznius”

    I’m not argue with you. Just asking. What about Rebbetzin Jungreis?

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