June 4, 2013 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #957154
HaKatan, you are wrong.
Joe(About Time), have a good day.June 4, 2013 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #957155writersoulParticipant
+1(000000), yichusdikJune 5, 2013 12:13 am at 12:13 am #957156
yichusdik, you missed the entire point and, as a bonus, you are also wrong about the Nazi comparison.
I was not condemning anyone, and certainly not a typical secular chiloni who I have previously said is likely a tonik sheNishba. I also never claimed anyone is an angel. Please relax.
I agree with you that many of them could care less what “Chareidim” do, other than the army issue.
The point is what Zionism is and is not. Zionism is shmad. Zionism is NOT merely a movement for a State. I explained all this above.
That doesn’t mean your typical chiloni is or is not anything. But Zionism is still shmad, as written.
MDD: I assume you wouldn’t care to actually back up your assertion that I am “wrong”? I even gave you plenty of reading material for mine. I guess you meant that you don’t agree even though you can’t disprove what I wrote and also have no (stated) proof to your own wishes about Zionism.June 5, 2013 12:53 am at 12:53 am #957157
Regarding the Nazi comparison, I guess you missed the previous quotes from Ben Gurion (and Min HaMeitzar, et al.)
There’s much more, and I just saw a piece by Rabbi Dr. Chaim Simons (Google it) that spells out this point quite well.
Among others, the AICE’s Jewish Virtual Library, a pro-Zionist web site, also brings this Montor quote.
“Although Montor was an ardent Zionist, the prevailing Zionist aim at the time was for “selective” immigration to build a Jewish state, not the rescue of Jewish refugees.
He circulated thousands of copies of the letter, which asked Jews not to support illegal immigration to Palestine.”
Zionism is not only diametrically opposed to the Torah, but the comparison of Zionists to Nazis is, in some respects, unfortunately, quite valid. If that’s too inflammatory for you, perhaps some reading up on history is in order.June 5, 2013 2:29 am at 2:29 am #957158yichusdikParticipant
The point is selective quotes, some of which are from nonentities and others of which are noncontextual, and further others made up by the likes of the made up Jew Israel Shamir who NK loves, and even a few accurate citations do not a policy – especially one based on a national self determination, and evolved over several decades – make. And I would ask – who is more righteous, or less unrighteous, assuming for a minute the accuracy of one of your quotes. The guy who says in 1940 as the war looks grim that he wants to first bring people who can defend the yishuv from the advancing Axis, or the “holy leader” who a few years later chose to bring out his library instead of a few more children when a “Zionist” managed to get him a way out of Europe?June 5, 2013 2:40 am at 2:40 am #957159
HaKatan, some history reading is in order for you as I have pointed out. I’ll speak Yeshivish: The Brisker shittah is a very,very,very shvere one. Get it?June 5, 2013 3:20 am at 3:20 am #957160
mdd, if you’d like to respond and have the last word about this, please feel free; I have quoted and brought down multiple secular sources, in addition to, lihavdil, Rav Chaim, whose shita is not at all shvere. You, on the other hand, have quoted nothing.
Despite your feelings on the matter regarding what you wish it were, and regardless of any Zionist propaganda to the contrary, the facts are what they are. As Rav Chaim said, Zionists need a State to shmad, not the other way around.June 5, 2013 10:35 am at 10:35 am #957161LeyzerParticipant
HaKatan and Akuperma,
What do you make of the 1929 Chevron massacres?
Is it not compelling evidence that the Arab enmity towards the Jews in Israel is NOTHING to do with the State of Israel?June 5, 2013 11:03 am at 11:03 am #957162
HaKatan, do you seriously think that all those early Zionist pioneers who went to live and work and restore the E.Y. under very difficult and with time dangerous conditions were moser nefesh to build a place to shmad Jews? That they left on opportunity to go to America just to do the above? Do you really think that the mass popular support that the Zionists enjoyed among Eastern European Jews was due to all of them being bent on taking others off the derech? Did you read what Hetzel wrote about how and why he decided to start the movement? Do you live in an alternate universe? Did you yourself “gelernt in Brisk” or somebody else who taught you?
Btw, if you are such a Brisker fan how come do you live in America (which I take you do) — the Rov held it was a treifene medinah?June 5, 2013 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #957163Sam2Participant
Leyzer: That one’s easy. It was just a pogrom. Pogroms happen in Galus and we shrug it off and move on. That doesn’t mean that the Goyim hate us. It’s just a normal part of daily Galus life.
/takes tongue out of cheek/June 5, 2013 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #957164kevudaMember
Leyzer: 1929 is after 1898 and after Balfour. So it isn’t compelling.
Galus means goyim hate us. That doesn’t mean we should agitate them further as post-1898 involved.June 5, 2013 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #957165
Leyzer, aderaba. It is actually compelling evidence that this vociferous Arab enmity is precisely due to Zionism (and the State of Israel).
See the (transcription of the) recording from around 30 years ago of an interview with Rabbi Baruch Kaplan who was there at the time in 1929.
This has been mentioned many times on these boards.
The 1929 Chevron Massacre was a result of “Religious Zionists”, who sought to wrest from the Arabs control over the kosel, including Rabbi Kook who proclaimed “Shema Yisrael HaKosel Kosleinu HaKosel Echad”. Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld, and the other non-Zionist Jews who lived there well before Zionists came, had begged the Zionists to stop and not instigate the Arabs, but to no avail.
The (false) rumor spread among the Arabs that their Al Aqsa mosque was threatened, and they murdered these innocent Yeshiva boys who, with Ashkenazi features, looked to the Arabs like Zionists. The Sefardim who lived elsewhere in Chevron were not harmed because the Arabs knew these were not Zionists.
Here are his closing words, translated from Yiddish, as brought elsewhere:
“Everyone must know that the anger of the Arabs against us is only caused by the Zionists!
The Arabs were a friendly people to us, and I am a witness to it. We lived very well with them in Hebron. Rabbi Alter attested to this as well, and it is the accursed Zionists who caused them to hate us…June 5, 2013 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #957166
mdd, you’re missing the point and making assumptions as to my position which are completely wrong. And you still haven’t provided any sources to back up your assertions.
Of course there were many people who moved to Mandatory Palestine who had no intentions of shmad (i.e. becoming Zionist “Hebrews” and, CH”V discarding their Judaism). But this does not change the meaning of Zionism.
I quoted to you from what Herzl himself wrote as well as other Zionists, and the point is, again, that Rav Chaim Brisker was, in addition to his formidable daas Torah, simply stating the clear and obvious facts. Zionism needs a State for Shmad, not the other way around.
For further details, please see my previous posts (or read the books about Zionism).June 5, 2013 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #957167
HaKatan, you are wrong. It is useless to reason with you. I won’t do that anymore.
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