August 15, 2022 12:39 am at 12:39 am #21150741Participant
We now find ourselves in an era where elements of Chasidus is popular in litvish circles and where Jews are more affluent. Bekishes, Kapotas, Streimels, Ataros, and Gartelach things that were not common in litvish circles have become more popular. Even in more YU circles, there are men in their 20s and 30s starting to put on Gartelach. If one’s father did not wear these aformentioned garments, is it disrespectful and against his minhag if he starts to wear chasidishe levush to davening? There’s probably a difference between wearing a gartel and a bekishe, but is there an inherent minhag not to wear a gartel or have a fancy Atarah on a Talis?August 15, 2022 3:37 am at 3:37 am #2115162yungermanSParticipant
If a person wants to take upon himself an additional minhag that his parents don’t hold of cause their not as serious as him religious wise he can add what he wants and move up in life.
So you think it’s an insult if your father doesn’t wear a gartel and you decide to start wearing one? Is your father going to even know or see you wearing it? Which orthodox parent would get upset if their child decides to take upon himself additional minhagim that they don’t keep but he wants to be more serious and orthodox then them? Maybe reform Jewish parents won’t like or allow it but a regular orthodox Jew should be proud that their child wants to improve in their religion.August 15, 2022 7:47 am at 7:47 am #2115165reform rabbiParticipant
What if a bachur from a no tie family wants to put on a tie?August 15, 2022 7:48 am at 7:48 am #2115170Shimon NodelParticipant
There’s no maale whatsoever in in imitating 18th century European noblesAugust 15, 2022 7:50 am at 7:50 am #2115182
when you consider that 66% of the people in the so called yeshivisher velt [even the MO crowd] actualy are desendants of Polisher and Hungairians it is no big deal, they just went back to the grandparents minhag.
In fact Rabbi Norman Lamm zl, the Steipler ZTL and Rav Shustal ZTL all decend from chasidish stock.August 15, 2022 8:29 am at 8:29 am #2115188
Kapotas was always a Litvish thing, not Chasidish.
The Minhag in Chaim Berlin, which isn’t Chasidish, is to wear a gartel. This isn’t new, it’s always been the case there. Other non-Chasidish kehilos might have similar minhagim.
I never saw American Litvish wear a shtreimal. No idea where you got that thought. Yerushalmi Litvish always have worn shtreimals.August 15, 2022 8:30 am at 8:30 am #2115192Ray KaufmanParticipant
The idea that someone who doesn’t wear the levush isn’t as “serious” as someone who does is insulting, not to mention egregiously wrong. If you think that what’s on your head is more important than what’s in your head. You’re gonna have some ‘splainin’ to do biz 120.August 15, 2022 8:31 am at 8:31 am #2115206
My Rebbi, the Matersdorfer Rav, Rav Shmuel, ztz’l wore a gartel under his beketcher. A pasul sefer Torah has an outside gartel. We have an expression in Hungarian being a pope over the pope by making themselves more religious than the father. I do wear a atarah on the talis (received as a present from my son) that my father did notAugust 15, 2022 8:33 am at 8:33 am #2115214
The Hadhauser, Wiener Rav ztz’l did not wear a streimel in the shul until the bachurim bought it for him.August 15, 2022 9:10 am at 9:10 am #2115244
And only the litvish roshei yeshivas wear kapotas today. Though most lubavitch chasidim do.August 15, 2022 9:13 am at 9:13 am #2115237
Atara is a Minhag thing? It’s simply something to make your tali’s nicer.
Is how many stripes your talis has going to be thought of as a Minhag, and we’ll compare your number to your father’s?August 15, 2022 9:15 am at 9:15 am #2115243
UJM there are people who were born litvish who decide to start to wear bekishes today. Meaning their parents are but now they connect with chasidus. Take a walk in Israel 3 LA and you’ll see people with American out of town accents like that.August 15, 2022 9:15 am at 9:15 am #2115269
The Aruch Hashulchan says not to a have an atarah.August 15, 2022 9:59 am at 9:59 am #2115281akupermaParticipant
Fashion change constantly. You can usually date photograph by looking at the clothing worn and how being groom themselves. Factors affecting Yidden include what the local goyim wear, what are rabbanim wear (the equivalent for for goyim are what their leading political figures and movie stars wear), and various halachic factors (modesty, looking better on Shabbos than the rest of the week). Fashions even among Yidden constantly change, and while it is interesting from a sociological perspective, from a halachic perspective “there is nothing to look at”).
Among fashion changes in the 20th century including the switch to manufactured fabrics (rather than linen, wool and cotton). Women switching to a “bra”. Most people giving up formal wearing of hats (a trend we ignored). Men switch to “short” dress coats (something rejected in part by many hareidim especially on Shabbos, the goyim switched when private cars became popular). Footwear has changed radically. People like President John Kennedy (who misplaced his top hat during his inauguration) and King/Emperor George V influence the world at large (when he stopped wearing a kapote as his standard normal daily work clothes), but Yidden not so much.August 15, 2022 10:00 am at 10:00 am #2115284
lakewhut & #1:
Are you also perturbed over the point that commonsaychel made? In other words, does it also bother you that about 66% of the Yeshivish/Litvish oilem come from Hungarian/Polish/Chasidish stock, and you believe that those 2 out 3 “”Litvish”/Yeshivish people should return to their Chasidish roots?August 15, 2022 10:00 am at 10:00 am #2115289Yabia OmerParticipant
So should Sfardim wear Fez hats and white robes?August 15, 2022 10:01 am at 10:01 am #2115288
Another violation of mesorah that should be of concern is regarding girls who are from families where the women don’t drive, yet they decided they will drive a car. B”H this isn’t a widespread problem yet, but we need to nip it in its bud.August 15, 2022 11:35 am at 11:35 am #2115296GadolHadofiParticipant
“we need to nip it in its bud”? What are you going to do about it, set up checkpoints?August 15, 2022 11:35 am at 11:35 am #2115297GadolhadorahParticipant
I’ve always suspected that deep inside many Litvishe yiddin beats the heart of a chassidishe fashion wanabee waiting to break out of the rigid black and white world of conformity and find some sartorial element to let their inner fashionista shine (without, of course, being accused of borderline tzinius violations for calling too much attention to their non-conforming Litvishe lvush).August 15, 2022 11:38 am at 11:38 am #2115303
It doesn’t bother me I was asking if it’s proper.August 15, 2022 11:44 am at 11:44 am #2115304moishekapoiehParticipant
i know this will rattle some people. so be it.
when we were first exiled, over 2,000 years ago, we wore, i’m sure, basically middle east clothing, for example, white robes and turbans, as per the climate.
when we arrived in cold europe, we switched to bekkashas, shtreimels etc. to save ourselves from freezing.
here comes the question: how come we were allowed to switch our custom in those years, but are not allowed to switch our custom today? specifically, i refer to when the jews returned to the holy land, the middle east climate would have suggested that we should be able to switch back to non-cold-european type of clothing. why do the rabbis insist that in 120 degree heat, their talmidim still wear heavy black felt hats, bekishes, shtreimels etc?
if we were allowed to change our custom 2,000 years age, why not now???
and i mean this not as a putdown, but just as a serious question.August 15, 2022 11:45 am at 11:45 am #2115305
The Chasam Sofer 159 says that there is no problem to shave. If for bechukoseihem, not the follow the goyim then who allowed us to wear black shoes that the galochim wear? The Maharik says that if there is a benefit other than a’z, it does not apply, so the color of the shoes doesn’t matter. As for imitating a woman, usually some stubbles are left, as the machine is not being pressed on the face.August 15, 2022 11:45 am at 11:45 am #21153061Participant
Yabia the sephardim in old jerusalem wore their levush. They changed and followed the ashkenazi wear.August 15, 2022 11:45 am at 11:45 am #2115307
@yabia, yes and some doAugust 15, 2022 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #2115330lowerourtuition11210Participant
My father didn’t own a kittel until he was 50 (he used my maternal grandfather kittel at his chasuna). Does that mean I cant wear my kittel until I’m 50? My father didn’t like an atarah on his tallis (felt it to be to heavy on his head). Does that mean i cant wear one? I think that is absurd. My father always joked about me wearing a tisch bekesher. but i started when i bought a house. My some of my sons wear one now. and we are yeshivish with some litvishe leanings.August 15, 2022 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #2115352KuvultParticipant
The whole basis of this thread is laughable. The real growth of the Chasidic movement (c.1790-c.1860) was external. All these “Litvish” Jews that “Converted” to Chasidish did exactly what you’re talking about. If today we’re OK with that back then masses of Jews changed many of their Minhagim (often while their father & Zaidy were around to see it) why should it be a problem today? The reason it worked is because back then Chasidim were smart enough to say, “We’re not “Better” than you, just different.”August 15, 2022 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #2115353
A gartel is necessary for davening according to some poskim, and in one reading of the magen avrohom. Some litvishe, including rav boruch ber, grew up with gartels. He switched to putting it under his jacket in deference to his rebbe rav chaim brisker, who did not wear one at all.
when we see modern people wanting to be more outwardly religious looking, that is a complicated issue. Is it part of an upward trajectory? Are they in fact becoming more frum? Or is it just superficial…that’s something an individual modern person’s rebbe would have to talk with them about.
I took on wearing a gartel after asking one of my rebbeim; he said to ask my father if he’s makpid, which he was not, but that was the first thing he asked me to do, before even getting into my motivations.
streimels were most definitely not for weather protection. They were a badge of honor after the goyim made us wear funny hats to mock us. Rav shach says (merosh amanah) that wearing long was a mesorah which we dropped; the “pick your battles” type of thing, along with shaving. We’re not perfect, and you can’t make everything a red line. Chasidim did, in fact, make the chitzonius a red line, and they are successful in their derech.August 15, 2022 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #2115354
ujm, in some places it’s normal for single women to drive, especially if they live in car-dependent areas and are working. In the city there’s not much of a justification for it.August 15, 2022 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #2115373mdd1Participant
Ujm, I actually heard that the stripes and their order on our Ashkenazi talleisim are there for Kabbalistic reasons.August 15, 2022 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #2115380akupermaParticipant
To distinguish between dress up like you think people dressed up in the distant past (what the moderns say the hareidim to), or whether just is this fashion evolving in a natural way, albeit along different principals than affect the hiloni world (e.g who felt obliged to stop wearing hats since President Kennedy did, or to stop wearing kapotas since King George did) – consider radical change in hareidi fashion that have taken place over the last 120 years. If the changes didn’t result in outpourings of outrage, it supports my argument that this is just a matter of fashion evolving in a natural way. Consider: non-leather dress shoes (other than on Yom Kippur and Tisha B’Av); the use of fake light-weight fabrics especially in warm weather; the adoption of the bra; the discontinuance of fur hats on a daily basis (though some continue to wear them on Shabbos or if it is very cold); the adoption by men of long pants (200+ years ago men wore short pants with high socks, and 500 years ago men usually did not wear pants at all). Hareidim are not reinactors or affecting a perceived archaic style of dress; their fashions change like everyone else, but they have their own fashion sense so it sometimes evolves in different directions (unlike “moderns” who think it is cool to ape the goyim).August 15, 2022 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #2115407Yabia OmerParticipant
Is this what is important for the Jewish people in 2022?August 15, 2022 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #2115408mdd1Participant
AviraDeArah, what is the issue with women driving? I do not see a problem with it.August 15, 2022 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #2115410
Avira, and should they be working, especially outside the home? We should start a new thread to discuss.August 15, 2022 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #2115414
LOT112: Did your father have a Minhag not to wear a kittel ever, including by the Seder and on Yom Kippur? If so, and that’s a valid Minhag, then you certainly shouldn’t start wearing a kittel because you think it is cool to; you should absolutely continue your father’s minhagim.August 15, 2022 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #2115415Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
There is no reason to switch from your parents’ customs unless there is a very good reason. But you need to understand your minhag properly.
for example, many Sephardim hold by “when in Rome …” (not my words, afrom a Sephardi Rav). Thus, they had a turban in Baghdad, and their children will follow their minhag by wearing a black hat in Lakewood.
Chasidim forefathers switched from other minhagim to become chasidim, so they should not complain that their children switch to yeshivish or other chasidus.
People whose parents rebelled against religion, will respect their parents’ minhag and rebel against their non-religiosity.
OP focused on the rare exception: – Litvishe is most coming from people who were stubborn against modernishe, chasidishe, goyishe, etc, so there is a good reason to stand by their dress without changing. Those who do follow previous renegades, but disrespect their elders who chose not to change against all odds.August 16, 2022 10:06 am at 10:06 am #2115592lowerourtuition11210Participant
ujm: my father didn’t wear a kittel because he didn’t own one, not because he had a minhag not to wear one. He started wearing one when he turned 50 and was given one as a present. and he wore it on leil pesach and yom kippur. so when i asked my rosh yeshiva what to do he told me to wear one both on yom kippur and the leil seder.August 16, 2022 10:20 am at 10:20 am #2115600
My father did not wear a kittel for the seder but a special white hat called a heibel worn by Wiener and Hungarian Ashkenazim on Yomim Naroim.August 16, 2022 10:21 am at 10:21 am #2115581Yukel faceParticipant
Reb eliezer – how dare you write on so many frume yidden that they follow what is says in shulchan aruch to wear a garter and you call them a “possul sefer torah”?!
Unless you are referring to a “chamor nosei seforim”. A yid is more heilig than a seifer torah, and we say every morning in davening “ozer yisroel bigburah” not “ozer hatorah”. Anyway, stop with such silly smart sounding quotes. It’s not smartAugust 16, 2022 10:44 am at 10:44 am #2115610
yukel face, as your screen name indicates, I did not say not to wear a gartel but to wear it on the inside which satisfies the need for hikon, preparation for davenen but it can also be satisfied by washing the hands before davenen. Ozer Yisrael Bigbura can also be accomplished when worn on the inside. I think it is smart and cute. A yid is more heilig than a sefer torah is true as the kedusha comes from him but you have not given a reason why to wear it on the outside.August 16, 2022 11:50 am at 11:50 am #2115628
Reb Eliezer, do you wear a heibel worn?
Oib nisht, farvus nisht?August 16, 2022 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #2115635
@Reb E, you should not even responded to that troll, you are avove that levelAugust 16, 2022 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #2115632
YesAugust 16, 2022 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #2115633dovrosenbaumParticipant
If wearing a gartel helps someone grow in their avodas HaShem, put on 10 of them for all I care.August 16, 2022 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #2115634
To separate the body can be accomplished with a belt.August 16, 2022 12:54 pm at 12:54 pm #2115642
Reb Eliezer, where can a heibel worn be purchased?August 16, 2022 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #2115643
For a separation of lo yireh libo es ervaso, underwear and/or most pants is sufficientAugust 16, 2022 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #2115646GadolhadorahParticipant
Wear WHATEVER you want and makes you feel good about yourself and conforms to the norms of your hashkafah and minhag hamokom. If following the minhag of your father/grandfather is important to you, than do so but ultimately, be yourself. The ebeshter won’t judge you because of your sense of fashion or lack thereof and your chelek of olam haboh is not contingent on a wearing a gartel or the size of your kipah.August 16, 2022 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #2115654
I heard from Rav Shulman of Baltimore, who was asked what size of yarmulka to wear? He answered, big enough to cover your brain. Rav Shlomo Kluger held that it should cover the head.August 16, 2022 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #2115651
ujm, I don’t know my mother a’h made it.August 16, 2022 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #2115650
Is it יוהרא for a Litvack to start wearing a gartel when litvish gedolim don’t hold its needed?
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