October 30, 2010 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #592831simcha613Participant
I’ve noticed that many shuls in the Yeshivish/Chareidi/Chassidish velt don’t say the Mi Sheberach for Tzahal on Shabbos and I just wanted to know why not? I know that many of these shuls are philosophically against the medinah, but is that a reason not to have a tefilah for the men who are putting their lives on the line to protect Klal Yisroel and Eretz Yisroel? Assuming you believe in the ko’ach hatefilah, I imagine all these tefilos could save at least one life. If one can be mechalel Shabbos to save a life, can’t one be mochel on Zionism a little bit to daven for our brothers who are protecting our brothers?October 31, 2010 12:01 am at 12:01 am #707160
Many? Almost none do.
A tefila for the welfare of all Yidden in Eretz Yisroel is perfectly wonderful, and in fact done in this velt whenever there is a danger in Eretz Yisroel, and other times as well. But to specifically to address the Zionists is clearly wrong. They caused this danger that now requires protection from.October 31, 2010 12:58 am at 12:58 am #707162charliehallParticipant
I agree with Simcha. Those soldiers are protecting Jews. They need our prayers. It has nothing to do with Zionism.
Suppose the IDF were suddenly to cease to exist. How many hours before millions of Jews are murdered? How about some gratitude?October 31, 2010 1:28 am at 1:28 am #707163
Why didn’t the Zionist authors of this prayer include in it the Yeshivaleit in Eretz Yisroel who are doing much more than the Tzahal by their learning Torah all day, which provides for the safety of Eretz Yisroel?October 31, 2010 1:34 am at 1:34 am #707164mw13Participant
Of course we should have gratitude to the IDF. But that doesn’t necessarily mean we must make a mishabeirach for them. When’s the last time we made a mishabeirach for the American army? If they were to suddenly cease to exist, many jews would suffer as well. And if you say that’s different because they’re not jewish, how about Hatzalah? Or Shomrim?
Taking this a step further, why not just make a general mishabeirach for those who put their lives on line for the klal, and not just the IDF? That would include the jewish members of the US army, the Shomrim members recently risked their lives, etc. Why must we only have gratitude to the IDF?October 31, 2010 1:50 am at 1:50 am #707165WolfishMusingsParticipant
When’s the last time we made a mishabeirach for the American army?
My shul makes a MiSheberach for the government every Shabbos. I would presume the army is included in the government.
The WolfOctober 31, 2010 2:34 am at 2:34 am #707167Josh31Participant
“They caused this danger that now requires protection from.”
I did not know that we had a Navi (prophet) in the CR.
“When’s the last time we made a mishabeirach for the American army?”
Our prayer for the welfare of the state does include a prayer for the Armed Forces.October 31, 2010 2:51 am at 2:51 am #707168pascha bchochmaParticipant
Today I was at a modern shul and stood up for it in order not to offend anybody.October 31, 2010 2:52 am at 2:52 am #707169charliehallParticipant
Many shuls make a mi sheberach for the US Army. And last I checked, nobody is shooting at hatzalah.October 31, 2010 3:30 am at 3:30 am #707171
Myfriend, there are already tefilos for that. One of the Yehi ratzons on Mon Thurs is lkayem banu chachmei yisroel.
On Shabbos the first yekum purkan is for those learning. ALso, the kaddish drebanan is similar.October 31, 2010 3:35 am at 3:35 am #707172
All shuls should absolutely should make a mishebairach for the chayalim.
Even my AGUDAH does it! Of course they don’t, chalila, use the form that mentions the state of Israel, but a nusach was created and it is said every Shabbas.
Those who believe you are protected by the Torah learning ALONE going on there (and I do not at all deny the extreme value of that learning) must feel that Israel, even the way things are now, merits such a naiys niglah without the hishtadlus of the IDF.
Those of you who oppose such a tefila, NEVER, I hope, step foot in Eretz Yisrael, because it IS the presence and the actions of the chayalim that keep you from getting your throat slit!
Furthermore, even before your plane lands at BenGurion airport, you are making use of “the Zionist infrastructure” – from the control tower at the airport, to the use of the Zionist cell phone system you use (to call your learning son, or son-in-law, to tell them you’ve arrived), to driving on the Zionist built roads, to arriving at your Zionist built hotel, and washing your hands from a Zionist built water supply system, to plugging in your shaver, or your phone charger to the Zionist built electricity supply, etc., etc., etc. One would have to be an extreme hypocrite to be so anti-Zionist and still make use of all they have done!
I personally am as strenuously against and disgusted by MANY of the policies of the Israeli government as any person could possibly be, but the way to make a HUGE kidush HaSh-m and change the face of Israel into be a Torah state is for a hundred thousand (or more!) frum Jews to make aliyah, NOT by sitting in the U.S. and thinking you are holy by not praying for Jewish boys, religious and not (yet) religious, who are putting their very lives on the line to protect the Jews in Eretz Yisrael INCLUDING the ones who are anti-Zionist, INCLUDING the boys that sit and learn, and INCLUDING YOU when you make vacation visits!October 31, 2010 4:05 am at 4:05 am #707173
Uganda — the original Zionist plan. Absolutely not true.
There are reasons why the tefila is not said, but not the ones mentioned above. Some of the soldiers are mumarim. Plus, the Gedolim were, probably, afraid of people being too much into Zionism.
Hatsola is in the same sakona as the soldiers of the IDF? Come on, now.October 31, 2010 4:05 am at 4:05 am #707174Darchei NoamMember
You don’t need a navi to know the zionists caused the Arabs to hate and kill Jews more than the Christians, who for the 1,800 years prior to zionism were killing Jews a lot lot more than the Arabs.
And the question why the prayer doesn’t include ALL the Yidden in E. Yisroel, especially the Torah learners, is indeed a good one. Another good question is why if such a specific prayer was required was it that zionists created it rather than the gedolim.
As far as utilizing zionist infrastructure, the zionists have made it impossible to not utilize it if you live or go to E. Yisroel. And Torah yidden have been living in E. Yisroel before the zionists, and do not have to leave because the zionists contaminated the holy land.October 31, 2010 4:39 am at 4:39 am #707175mw13Participant
Of course being in Hatzalah isn’t quite like being the IDF, but my point still stands: Why only the IDF? Surely there are others worthy of our recognition and teffilos as well? And yet there is only a mishabeirach for the IDF (and the cholim).October 31, 2010 4:47 am at 4:47 am #707176
What about the religious Zionists? You have to pray for them.October 31, 2010 4:58 am at 4:58 am #707177
Darchei Noam, say what? The Arabs have killed more than the Christians??? The Christians in the 40’s killed 6 million, whereas in the last 150 years, the Arabs have killed less than 25,000.
BTW, if we are to blame for the Arabs killing, are we also to blame for the Christians killing? Who do we blame for the Crusades and Inquisition and Tach vTat? The convenient Zionist scapegoats were not around yet. Not even YU existed then.October 31, 2010 5:27 am at 5:27 am #707178TheChevraMember
Today I was at a modern shul and stood up for it in order not to offend anybody.
I once had the same problem. I didn’t feel comfortable being the only one remaining seated, so I stood up, turned around and fiddled with my phone.October 31, 2010 5:52 am at 5:52 am #707179Darchei NoamMember
PY, exactly my point! I said the Christian’s killed far more yidden than the Arabs for 1000+ years… until the advent of zionism, which caused the Arab hatred to increase many times over and the Arabs have since been killing yidden in numbers they hadn’t anywhere close to prior to the advent of zionism.October 31, 2010 6:52 am at 6:52 am #707180yechezkel89Member
anybody who claims that zionism started the trend of arabs wanting to kill jews apparently doesn’t know history in the slightest bit. The arabs yemach shemam have always professed a desire to kill us. The reason for saying the tefilah for our chayalim has nothing to do w/zionism. It is a halacha!!!! Remember w/o these soldiers the yeshivot and the kollilem wouldn’t be able to function. So shame on anyone who doesn’t say the tefila.October 31, 2010 8:23 am at 8:23 am #707181mamashtakahMember
. . . but is that a reason not to have a tefilah for the men who are putting their lives on the line to protect Klal Yisroel and Eretz Yisroel?
And women, too.
But history has shown what a disaster the whole experiment has been and continues to be despite the many yeshivos, kosel access, etc.
So don’t set foot there. Don’t come, because chas v’shalom you should spend money that would benefit anything in Israel. And what are you basing this marvelous revision of history on?
As far as utilizing zionist infrastructure, the zionists have made it impossible to not utilize it if you live or go to E. Yisroel. And Torah yidden have been living in E. Yisroel before the zionists, and do not have to leave because the zionists contaminated the holy land.
Wow, I’ve never been called a contaminator before. I guess there’s a first time for everything.
By the way, MW13, both of the shules I used to attend in Baltimore made a mi shebayrach every week for the U.S. armed forces, in addition to the one made for the U.S. government.
So what will each of you do after 120 years, when HKB”H asks you why you didn’t live in E”Y? What excuse will you have? What will you answer?
I’ll bet if living here was a chumra, there would be a lot more aliyah.October 31, 2010 10:43 am at 10:43 am #707182HelpfulMember
They were nt nearly as riled up to kill us as post-zionism, as history testifies.October 31, 2010 11:06 am at 11:06 am #707183JoneekayMember
Maybe we can discuss facts instead of philosophies and political differences –
There are many opinions and explanations for our security in Eretz Yisroel. Hakadosh Baruch Hu protects us – that’s first and foremost.
Who are the Shlichim of Hakadosh Baruch Hu? Are they the soldiers? The bochrim and Talmedei Chachamim who are sitting and learning / daavening? Maybe both?
Here’s a fact – in all the wars and battles in Eretz Yisroel over the past 60 years, the soldiers are the one’s losing limbs, or coming back in body bags. They are the one’s who are putting themselves out there and this is a fact.October 31, 2010 12:09 pm at 12:09 pm #707184HelpfulMember
Which further shows the utter failure of the Zionist enterprise.October 31, 2010 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #707185
I did not read all the responses, although the OP touched on a number of potential answers. I’m sure the usual suspect answers were already given and if not, will surely be debated to death over the next few days or until someone crosses a line and the moderators are forced to shut the thread.
To answer the OP. I personally daven in a shul that does not make a mi shebeirach for the Tzahal, this does not make me, or those who daven in the shul anti the medina, or kofui tov to the Tzahal. I can not speak for anyone but myself here. when I daven for the well being of klal yisroel in galus, in the bracha of goel yisroel or when we say sim shalom…”val kal yisroel” it includes all members of klal yisroel, not specific members.
You say a special teffila for the Tzahal, thats your perogative. Do you say a special tefillah for the cholim in your local hospital? If not, does that mean you could care less if they just drop dead?October 31, 2010 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #707186
Helpful, you are not making a drop of sense. Are you saying that the Muslims are bigger tzaddikim then the Christians? You seem to be saying that nothing Jews did caused the Christians to slaughter us. Thye are simply reshaim. However, the holy Muslims would never have slaughtered us if not for the Zionists.
1) Where on earth did you get this chiluk that one of the umos haolam/religion is innately better than the other as far as midos/morality goes? Can you show a sefer which states this?
2) Have you ever opened up a history book and read about what a fine person Mohammed was who personally deceived and slaughtered Jews, and wrote a Koran which is filled with statements inciting to kill Jews? Were there Zionists in the 7th century? What planet are you living on?
3) Your statement that the entire Zionist experiment failed is based on what exactly? They are a virtual superpower militarily, scientifically, economically, and in purity of arms and ethics in the way they respect human life, even of the enemy. They have regained access to the mekomos hakedoshim, and yeshivos and shuls have flourished like never before. If that is a failure, I would be hard pressed to define success.
It is obvious you have been brainwashed with anti-zionism and simply repeat rubbish you have been told without thinking about it even for a moment. I myself heard the same nonsense, until one day I thought about it and realized how it is such a stupendous success that it is a nes goluy. Go with your own two eyes, rather than the poisonous vitriol you have been fed.October 31, 2010 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #707187
I would further add that these wonderful righteous Muslims never would think of blowing up a building in NY and killing 3,000. They would never blow each other up on a daily basis all over their area of the world with suicide bombs going off so often that its 30 people dead one day, 80 the next, 120 on a bad day. They don’t hijack planes, and fight civil wars with each other such as Iraq vs. Iran which killed a million Muslims. They don’t celebrate their holy days by Sunnis killing Shiites at their mosques. They don’t kill Russian schoolchildren in school. They are just too fine and morally upstanding to do these things. Not a bloodthirsty instinct in them.October 31, 2010 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #707188
im confused why this is an issue in the first place.all of you who are flat out against it are clearly not rachmanim. i really do not understand the controversy and i do not understand why there are shuls that dont say it or something like it every shabbos. davening for the people in the IDF is in no way supporting zionism. israel has a draft. they dont have a choice. elah mai, youll say they should all be sitting and learning and then theyll be exempt? no, if they were all chozer b’tshuvah (halevai) then the government would institute the draft for EVERYONE. whether or not that tradeoff is worth it is a different discussion for a different time.
a lot of them want to be there and a lot of them dont. they are drafted. now…again…WHY arent you davening for them? and for those that DO want to be there, are they not worthy of our tefillos? they are b’din tinok shenishba and didnt know any better obviously, so who are you to judge them? daven for their health and wellbeing so that im yirtzeh hashem they should be able to leave the IDF healthy and be chozer b’tshuva!
also i might point out that there are several branches of the army that are NOT zionist and do NOT join to protect the land (IE the government) but the people. their jewish brothers and sisters. some hakaras hatov is in order. some massive hakaras hatov.
as for people’s stupid arguments about “oh, we start here whats next the US army hatzalah etc…” youre right. we SHOULD daven for them too! i fail to see how thats an argument!October 31, 2010 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #707189shlomozalmanMember
I live in Israel and it is indeed naive to think that a chareidi shul would say the mesheberach for Tzahal. The mesheberach is not really the issue, though. Most religious Israelis who send their sons off to war or dangerous operations (these operations go on every day, by the way) are amused by the never-ending American disagreement for or against it. The reason for the amusement is this: The American frum who don’t see why they need to say it are clueless about Am Yisrael living in God’s country but outside the proverbial dalet amos of Brooklyn and Monsey. And the American frum who are adamant about saying it are giving literal lip service instead of actually doing it. A generalization? Of course, but face up to it, it’s generally true.October 31, 2010 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #707190
bomb: Are you reprimanding the gedolim who said no?October 31, 2010 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #707192
(Obviously many years ago) a secretary of the Satmar Rov (Rov Yoel) zatz”l came over to where he was sitting and whispered in the Rov’s ear.
The Rov broke out in tears, sobbing deeply.
When people asked the messenger what it was that evoked these tears, he said he had just informed the Rov that an Israeli soldier had been wounded in combat.
Was the Rov a “Zionist”? – obviously NOT.
Did he care deeply about the welfare and well-being of every Jew, including EVERY Jewish soldier? – obviously yes!
While he did not make a public prayer for chayalim, did he, himself pray privately for the chayalim? – WHAT DO YOU THINK!?!October 31, 2010 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #707193October 31, 2010 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #707194
shlomozalman: How sweet. A koton reprimand a godol? Well, considering your previous praise of apikorsum professor’s for their Biblical criticism disputing what Rishonim and Achronim said, it actually figures.October 31, 2010 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #707195
The topics discussed in this “coffee room” provoke so much lashon hara and sinas chinam, I seriously think a shaila should be asked as to whether the coffee room is ovair on “leefnay eevair” and should be closed down completely.October 31, 2010 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #707196
if you dont like it go awayOctober 31, 2010 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #707197HaKatanParticipant
Nobody seems to be arguing that we shouldn’t seek the welfare of anyone in Israel. Everyone, including the great man who is reviled by Zionists, the Satmar Rav, wants all Jews to be doing well, as evidenced by the story quoted above.
But that is not a reason to say a special mishebeirach. As another poster correctly commented, if you don’t say a weekly mishebeirach for the collective cholim in your local hospital, does that mean you don’t care about them?
The truth is, from the reverence ascribed to Zionism by its adherents, I would think that those people do, in fact, care about the medinah and its agents (who live in a land that Hashem gives “extra protection” to) more than the local cholim who (also) truly need their tefillos.
Again, just because someone is in a makom sakana or any other difficult situation, that doesn’t mean that they deserve a special mishebeirach and not be included in the general tefillos as general members of klal Yisrael. Only because you (incorrectly) ascribe special holiness to the fallacy of Zionism do you feel that they deserve an extra tefilla or two.
PY viseyato: Zionism has been abject failure for a number of reasons. The greatest military in the region is *worthless* if the citizens are not protected from the savages who live there. The horrific carnage CH”V R”L L”A that went on there for years is absolutely unacceptable; in fact, the loss of even one Jew s unacceptable and if your whole raison d’etre is to provide a safe haven for Jews yet these savages were able to spill so much pure blood of our brethren under your protection, then you have failed miserably in your goal.
As well, the point of greatly magnified Arab hatred is one you did not address (because, as a Zionist, you can’t). Things like the Kuran (which does contain much anti-Jewish sentiment and more) and other examples you brought do not translate to the reality of what occurred on the streets of Yerushalayim under Zionist rule and how the Jews live even now under Zionist rule with fences and ultra-security everywhere, etc. The Arabs had their Kuran for over a thousand years, but only once their hatred had been inflamed due to the entire Zionist enterprise, which began well before the actual founding of the State in 1948, did this result in the tremendous increase in hatred, which had such deadly repercussions R”L L”A.
Jews also lived in Arab countries for centuries and did not have anything near this extreme level of hatred directed at them. That’s historical record. Granted, they were dhimmis, second class, etc. and the Arabs did not love them nor shower them with flowers. But it was nothing like what the Arabs have done post-Zionism’s founding.
Of course these savages have no right to murder as they did; that should be obvious to anyone (except, it seems to the nations of the world). But the Zionists were foolish in doing what they did as they knew they were dealing with savages yet their only concern was their State.
So the whole Zionist fallacy is simply not justifiable just because you can have yeshivos and seminaries and access to the Kosel or whatever other wonderful accomplishments the Zionists did achieve. Because it’s not worth sacrificing Jewish lives for any or all of that. Period. That’s the cold hard truth as I understand it.October 31, 2010 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #707199
BM. Those who you are somech on, do not bash those he is somech on. Why do you feel the need to do so?October 31, 2010 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #707200
so youre saying that just because we havent been praying for as many people as we should be we shouldnt pray for anyone? i see…interesting…October 31, 2010 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #707201
To All posters…
Read Eim HaBanim Semaicha by Rav Teichtal. It MAY open your eyes.October 31, 2010 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #707202
sz: The Godol is right, and the Koton is dead wrong.October 31, 2010 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #707204twistedParticipant
at the end of shmoneh esrei, we say borchei avinu kulanu BYACHAD. How many of you are mkhavein what this really means?October 31, 2010 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #707205
And in golus no Jews were ever killed? Come on, by the thousands and tens of thousands! That’s what brought the whole Zionist enterprise into being.October 31, 2010 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #707206
The Sefer Aim HaBanim Semecha doesn’t contain anything new. It’s a collection of all the old Zionist arguments that have long been disproven. The truth is, his position stood no chance to begin with, because even though Rav Teichtel was a Talmid Chacham, he was opposing the collective Torah knowledge of the greatest Torah giants, including but not limited to Rav Chaim Brisker, Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh, The Chofetz Chaim, the Rogachover Gaon, The Lubavitcher Rebbe (Rashab), the Belzer Rebbe (R. Yisachar Dov), the Chazon Ish, the Brisker Rav, Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzensky, all who were opposed to Zionism and the creation of a State. So he was really quite outgunned from the start. The most extensive work on this topic is of course the Satmar Rav’s Vayoel Moshe, which disproves just about every Zionist “proof” ever conceived.
Example: On page 147 he addresses a powerful statement in Ahavas Yonason by R. Yonason Eyebuschitz ZT”L that it is absolutely prohibited for Jews to take over Eretz Yisroel before Moshiach, even if all the nations want them to, which is kind of a problem for a religious Zionist like Rabbi Teichtel. This is his response: “You should understand that the words of Rav Yonason only apply when there is no sign from heaven that we should all abandon the lands of Chutz Laaretz, meaning, when Jews can live peacefully outside of Eretz Yisroel … but not nowadays, when the words of the prophet came true, [that Jews will be hunted down by goyim]. So when the nations give us permission to return to our land, can there be any doubt that it is the will of Hashem that we return to Eretz Yisroel? I am certain, that if Rav Yonason Eyebushitz was living with us today and saw the terrible golus that we endure, he himself would say to us: ‘Brother Jews! The time has come for you to go to Eretz Yisroel, for this is the will of Hashem, for it is not coincidence what has happened to us in Golus, but rather it is the finger of G-d pointing to us to rise from golus…”
And it gets much, much, worse. This attitude that “everyone has to interpret the world the way I do” often passes the line into the realm of the absurd. On page 98 he deals with the Minchas Elozor, who was a vehement opponent of Zionism. He was vehemently critical in general, actually, when it came to protecting the Torah. And nobody was beyond his scrutiny. Here are some quotes:October 31, 2010 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #707207
this thread is so off topic…the tefilla is in no way an endorsement of the state. so please…don’t make it seem that it is.October 31, 2010 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #707208WIYMember
We say Sim Shalom 3x a day. Its for all Jews who need peace and security. Have Kavana when you say it.October 31, 2010 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #707209
Any chayallim/chayalot reading this thread? I wonder if they are just beaming with nachas or wondering if it is worth putting their tuchas on the line every day for this pettiness.November 1, 2010 1:59 am at 1:59 am #707213
i suppose some people cant begrudge their brothers and sisters a tefillahNovember 1, 2010 2:55 am at 2:55 am #707214
MDD, thanks. I was going to point out the same thing. Hertzl himself predicted there would be major problems in galus, unless we get our own state. Not long after his passing, began the holocaust. The whole raison d’etre of the Zionists was anti-semitism. Had everything been fine and dandy in galus, would these non-religious people have given a thought about EY?
Hakatan, did the Yishmaelim not earn the title of Pereh Adam long before the Zionists?
Finally, please read my quote from the Tzitz Eliezer who lauds the Zionists. I cited this in the apikorus thread a few weeks back.November 1, 2010 3:32 am at 3:32 am #707216HomeownerMember
There must be something wrong with my browser. I thought I was reading “The Yeshiva World.” Instead I seem to have stumbled upon “The Neturei Karta World.”November 1, 2010 3:56 am at 3:56 am #707217
Homeowner: You must be referring to such heisa NK’niks like the Brisker Rov, Rav Ahron Kotler, and the Chazon Ish.November 1, 2010 6:52 am at 6:52 am #707219AkivaParticipant
Saying Mi Sheberach for Tzahal is in no way an endorsement of the medinah. That said, it is our Torah study and Emuna in Eretz Yisrael which keeps us (and the secular yidden by default) safe.
Also, the Gedolim disagreed with the secular medinah, but they all agree that one should live in Eretz Yisrael regardless. Too many people in this thread are using the state as an excuse for their own short-falls.
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