Mi Sheberach for Tzahal
Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › Mi Sheberach for Tzahal
- This topic has 115 replies, 35 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 7 months ago by apushatayid.
November 5, 2010 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #707272lesschumrasParticipant
I am truly amazed. When has a Medina truly existed that followed Torah law? If there were, the Beis Hmikdash would still be standing. The examples are numerous. Menashe had the longest reign and banned Torahand murdered Neviim and chachomim by the thousands. Sefer Devarim was virtually foegotten until in was discovered in renovation of a dlapidated Beis Hamikdosh.
Also, to those of you ascribe the safety of people living in Israel soley to the learning of yeshiva students and ascribes Jewish deaths to Zionism and the State. Dis Zionism exist during the Crusades, the pogroms, during the Chiemelki Cosack massacres, the Holocaust? Why didn’t learning protect us?November 5, 2010 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #707273mw13Participant
I’m not sure how citing a mi shebeirach for the tzahal is supporting Zionism, and therefore whether one holds of Zionism or not should have little to do with this conversation. I also think that it is obvious that we owe our thanks to the tzahal – the only question is whether a mi shebeirach is the appropriate way of expressing this. Where else do we find a mi shebeirach to express hakoras hatov to somebody? The only times that we normally do this is for somebody who has done something for the shul – bought an aliah, etc. Why can’t we have the tzahal in mind, along with all of Klal Yisroel, when we say Sim Shalom, Rieah Nu, Shomer Yisroel, Acheinu, etc, etc.November 5, 2010 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #707274
To all who oppose a tefila (not for the state, but…) for the boys defending and putting their LIVES on the line for EVEN the anti-Zionists, this is a headline story on YWN – RIGHT NOW…
Confirmed Explosive Device Found In Yerushalayim
(Friday, November 5th, 2010)
Sources tell YWN, that the bomb squad in Yerushalayim is confirming a suspicious device to be explosive.
YWN Israel has learned that police do not believe it is terror-related, but rather criminal. In any event, police have launched an investigation, but most importantly, the device was defused before exploding.
Zionist, non-Zionist, anti-Zionist.. anyone who has a problem davening for the boys (in this case in the bomb squad) who on a daily basis save Jewish lives by risking their own… what can I say… I just don’t know how all your ‘raiyas’ are going to hold up when you get to the Beis Din Shel Ma’alah.November 5, 2010 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #707275
My Friend: Thanks for answering my points. I had asked if you would like to be “mechadesh” an issur of expressing an indirect endorsement of the state, then you should do well with explaining how it’s permissive for Chareidi representatives to sit in the Keneset and for the chareidi public to take monetary assistance from the State institution?
I stated clearly that there may very well be a Torah and moral obligation to recite the Mi Sheberach on the grounds of the Chiyuv/Mitzvah of hakaras hatov; how do you see this relate to Mi Sheberach for Cuban communists rule?
The obligation of Hakaras Hatov is never measured by the amount given. Even the smallest amount of good done for someone obligates him to return hakaras hatov, as stated in the Gemara “one that opens a door for a fellow; his soul is obligated to him in return”. So your argument about how much the State has done for the chareidim with regard to security and financial assistance is baseless. (Additionally, your numbers and logic are way off.)
Your assumption that reciting the Mi Sheberach will have no effect on the Chareidi-Secular relationship, is also way off. The secular Israelis would like to see the Chareidim behave less arrogant and more appreciative for what is/was being done for them. How can you be assured that by sending a conciliatory message to our irreligious brethren it will have no effect at all? Isn’t one Jew who returns to the Torah worth a whole world?November 5, 2010 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #707276HelpfulMember
A lot lot better than your rayos using ywn posts.
Goyim aren’t attempting suicide bombs against yidden in Toronto or Milwaukee. Only in Israel. Why? Since the zionists incited them.November 5, 2010 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #707277
“Goyim aren’t attempting suicide bombs against yidden in Toronto or Milwaukee. Only in Israel.”
Did you not hear just this past week about the bombs intended for shuls in Chicago?
Did you not hear about the conviction of the attempted bombers of the Jewish Center in Riverdale???
Did ever occur to you that the secular Zionist movement came into being largely BECAUSE OF the anti-Semitism all over the world. It was THAT that came FIRST! It was THAT that made Jews, even secular Jews want to go HOME to OUR own Land. You’ve got it backwards! Read Jewish history.
EDITEDNovember 5, 2010 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #707278mw13Participant
Lomed Mkol Adam:
First of all, nice name.
“there may very well be a Torah and moral obligation to recite the Mi Sheberach on the grounds of the Chiyuv/Mitzvah of hakaras hatov”
Aha. So there’s a chiyuv to make a mi shebeirach to everybody who we owe our hakaras hatov to? And not just those that we owe hakaras hatov to, but the people who any Jew anywhere in the world owes hakaras hatov to? Wow, I’m not davening in your shul… because by the time your done all those mi shebeirach(s? im?) it’ll be tuesday!
Why must haaras hatov translate into a mi shebeirach? And why do you assume that those of us who don’t make a mi shebeirach have no hakaras hatov?
“Goyim aren’t attempting suicide bombs against yidden in Toronto or Milwaukee. Only in Israel. Why? Since the zionists incited them.”
Not the issue. The original Zionists, whether they are or are not responsible for the current situation, are no longer serving in the IDF. Those who currently serving in the IDF are definitely not the cause of the Arab’s hatred of us, and are still protecting our fellow jews from harm. In my book, that deserves our hakaras hatov. I don’t think this hakaras hatov must be expressed with a mi shebeirach, but I certainly think we should be thankful to the IDF.November 5, 2010 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #707279
Helpful: I don’t disagree with that, as I acknowledged myself in earlier posts on this thread. However, you are choosing to ignore all the good that has resulted on account of the State. Is it meaningless to you that millions of Jews have held back from intermarrying only on account of their identification with Judaism through the establishment of the State.
And, regardless of whether or not any bad has resulted through the State; YOU have a personal obligation of hakaras hatov for the Good that was done for you or your relatives who live in Israel, who are being provided daily with security and financial assistance.November 5, 2010 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #707280
You dismissed the current article on YWN that I mentioned as just one example of why we should pray for our Jewish soldiers in Eretz Yisrael.
So let me ask you this…
What if, in the case of what happened in this article, (where the bomb squad dis-armed a bomb in a chareidi neighborhood)- What IF the IDF had said, NO we don’t service that neighborhood. They are anti-Zionist, and furthermore they have their mitzvos, their learning and praying to protect them. They don’t want us, they don’t like us, they don’t NEED us! We’re not going.
So what would you have said then? I would suppose you would have said that the IDF HAD to go there because it is the Zionists fault that the yishmaelim placed a bomb.
And I would say to you, that IF that is what you would say, then I would suggest that regardless of the cause, if the chareidim HAVE TO depend on the Zionist IDF to protect them, then maybe they they should not be living in a makom sakana where they do have to depend on the Zionists to save them. Maybe they should move to Brooklyn, or Monsey. Perhaps you might even agree with that. But the bottom line is that chareidim ARE living in Eretz Yisrael, and our Jewish boys in uniform ARE risking their lives to protect them, and the very least we can do is to mispalel for their welfare.November 5, 2010 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #707281
nw13: Thank you for agreeing with many of my other points. I did not mean to say that the Gedolim should have in the past established a Mi sheberach for Tzahal as an act of Hakaras hatov. What I mean to say, is that the secular Israelis perceive the Chareidi act of omitting the Mi Sheberach as an act of arrogance and lack of appreciation for of all what the state has done for them. Therefore, if we would like to send a conciliatory message to them, then the obvious way to do that would be by reciting publicly a Mi Sheberach for them, as that would be a sign that we are accepting them too.November 5, 2010 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #707282
Again. To use a mi shebeirach recited once a week as a litmus test for ones ahavas yisroel or hakaras hatov is in my opinion foolish.
Out of curiosity. David Hamelech had quite a large army. Did he recite a special mi shebeirach for his soldiers? shlomo? What about Ezra and Nechemia for the people who were defending yerushalyim against the shomronim?(in fact they were member of the anshei knesses hagdolah who established the text of our tefilos and to the best of my knowledge did not include a specific tefilla for the security personnel).Do we have on record that chazal created a special tefilla for the chashmonaim as they fought the greeks? Bar Kochva?November 5, 2010 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #707283Pashuteh YidMember
Why not go more than a misheberach, and every time you see an IDF soldier give him a hug and tell him how much he means to you, and what a great zchus he has to protect the klal. Maybe slowly you’ll see a diminishing of the animosity between the secular and chareidi. Why not make a dinner in honor of the IDF and dance with the soldiers?
Reb Aryeh Levin once told a street sweeper he was jealous of his olam haba, because he has the mitzvah of keeping the streets of Yerushalayim clean at 5:30 am every morning. He begged him to let him use his broom.
It is still unfathomable to me how anybody can think we are worse off with the Medinah than we were without it. If someone can explain, please do so.November 5, 2010 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #707284YW Moderator-80Member
a specially appointed Kohen Gadol and a large portion of Klal Yisroel were led in specific Tefilla when the people went to war.November 5, 2010 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #707285
Mod-80. So, where is todays specially appointed “kohen gadol” and his tzibbur? Why do they not get together daily and say tehillim every day after davening for “acheinu kul beis yisroel” like I do (and many people I know) instead of waiting until shabbos to recite a specific mi shebeirach. This also means, that you are equating border patrol duty with going to war (which I am not necessarily disagreeing with – I just have not thought it out all the way).
What is the source for your statement? I assume it is a mishna or gemara somewhere. How large a portion of klal yisroel are we talking about? 20%? more? Less? a designated number of people, say 25,000? How were those people chosen? Volunteer?November 5, 2010 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #707286YW Moderator-80Member
i dont know exactly pashuteh
its pretty well know
i think its actually in the Chumash and Rashi
maybe someone else can tell you the sourceNovember 5, 2010 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #707287
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.