August 16, 2016 4:05 am at 4:05 am #618137
Did anyone watch the chofetz chaim video on tisha b’av?
Moderator’s note: The bill in question was in fact an old one, as presented in the CCHF story.
August 16, 2016 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #1176522
BumpAugust 16, 2016 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1176523
Hashem knows just what happened / There’s no reason to denyAugust 16, 2016 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #1176524Little FroggieParticipant
Yeah. I did. I had to put it up in our colony…
My personal opinion – it’s a nice thing. Just the wrong day. One day earlier or later. Tisha Bav should be spent on just mourning the Bais Hamikdash a the sublime way of life that was lost. Ways of how to fix it could wait for another day.
If Rachmana Litzlan someone was killed in a car crash, the time and place to discuss traffic lights, signs laws etc. is not by the Avail’s house during a shiva call. There’s a time and place for everything.
I went along with it and put it up, the messages are important, very important, but it’s my personal feeling that it’s a bit misplaced. (again, my own opinion and feeling)August 16, 2016 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #1176525☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
“Honesty is Emes, make sure all your words are true, so Totty, Mommy, and Hashem, will be so proud of you.”
However, it was the Ahavas Yisroel song on the CCHF video.August 16, 2016 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #1176526theprof1Participant
i find it interesting that a website with the name “yeshiva” should be anything but yeshivish. there isnt a thing yeshivish in this site. the coffee room itself is full of loshon hora and inane subjects and some plainly heretical. so much for yeshiva world.August 16, 2016 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #1176527147Participant
“Lie Lie Liar” A.K.A. Hillary Clinton urgently needs to read this thread.August 16, 2016 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #1176528
Did you read my op or just the titleAugust 16, 2016 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #1176529
I didn’t. What was the topic this year?
Little Froggie – in theory, you’re very right and it’s beautiful that you have that sensitivity, but imho, in this generation, it is a very good and necessary thing. Partly because we don’t know how to mourn properly, and even if most people can spend part of Tisha B’Av mourning, most can’t sustain it for the whole day. Therefore, most will end up doing things that are less productive and meaningful than watching a Chofetz Chaim video.
Also, it is hard for people to mourn because so many have difficult lives year-round and are somewhat “depressed” and need something positive to focus on even on Tisha B’Av. For many people, it would not be productive to mourn too much on Tisha B’Av, and it is more productive to try to work on Achdus and Ahavas Yisrael, and to try to use their sadness in a positive way.
Also, we have such a need to work on Achdus and Ahavas Yisrael. And on Tisha B’Av, people are much more receptive to this.
Just my opinion. I can hear why others may feel differently, but I do feel that their videos accomplish a tremendous amount.
Btw, in some place in EY, they show it during the Nine Days. That makes more sense, but maybe less people come because they are working and busy and on Tisha B’Av, people have more time.August 16, 2016 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #1176530
LF – just reread your post. I missed the part where you said that you think it would be better one day before or after. I do agree with that. Only concern would be that less people might comeAugust 16, 2016 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #1176531
Did you think rabbi shapiro’s 10 dollar bill look like a new or old 10August 16, 2016 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #1176532akupermaParticipant
Vocationally, that a problem. That would sure rule out a career in politics or journalism (these days at least), and probably law and probably finance. I guess you could always learn Torah all day.August 16, 2016 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #1176533JosephParticipant
akuperma, one could always be a librarian or something. Surely there are positions where it isn’t a problem.August 16, 2016 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #1176534
hey coffee – remembering where you live(d) I had a feeling that was what you were talking about!!
I was close with a few of Dr Dennis’ children and as soon as the fast ended got calls from other childhood friends about the story. We were so stunned about the bill, and unbelievably impressed by the reason he got it. How many of us put ourselves out there like that for our children and their chinuch.
We were trying to figure out if the ten had been dormant til then somewhere, or circulating around for all those years….August 16, 2016 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #1176535
Answer my question, did it look like a new or old 10
Secondly I lived in Miami beach, not north Miami beachAugust 16, 2016 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #1176536
Sorry, I didn’t see it, just got the reports and I guess that piece didn’t come up. Also, to me Florida is Florida I don’t really know that difference.
I didn’t realize you were really wondering about the bill itself, just the gadlus of the story – both stories. Are you thinking it didn’t really happen?August 16, 2016 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #1176537
I don’t care if it happened but to me it looked like a new 10 which wasn’t around 20 years agoAugust 17, 2016 2:02 am at 2:02 am #1176538
“Vocationally, that a problem. That would sure rule out a career in politics or journalism (these days at least), and probably law and probably finance. I guess you could always learn Torah all day.”
That’s the best idea anyhow!!!August 18, 2016 4:36 am at 4:36 am #1176539
Can someone summarize the story for those who didn’t see the video?
Did you read my op or just the title
I read the OP. I read the contents even when the title
actually does (seem to) tell me what the thread is about.August 21, 2016 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #1176540
The story was about a man (can’t remember his name) who goes to a Yeshiva in north Miami beach 20 years ago and offers to be principal for a year (to help the school) for a dollar, at the end of the year they are so happy with what he did to the Yeshiva they gave him a thousand percent raise of ten dollars and they signed on the back that it was a thousand percent raise with the president of the school’s signature and this person died recently and afterwards the ten was found and they showed the picture of the tenAugust 22, 2016 4:41 am at 4:41 am #1176541HappygirlygirlMember
So whats the point of the storyAugust 23, 2016 2:24 am at 2:24 am #1176542
I guess about the gadlus of whoever it was and caring about the schoolAugust 23, 2016 2:34 am at 2:34 am #1176543
The man was Dr. Joel Dennis. He had 13 children at a time when most people didn’t. He was committed to his children and to the community and he took a year to act as principal to get the school on their feet. He told them he would do it for a dollar.
I’m not sure why it would be difficult to see the importance of such a man and his actions.He had a very successful practice and I don’t know if he took a sabbatical or did both, but not many would be willing to do what he did for the sake of their children’s school. Perhaps the dollar resurfaced the week (day) of his levaya so that people couldn’t question the story. Or so that people wouldn’t forget to tell it over. Either way, I knew many of his children for almost 40 years and never had heard it. I thought it was highly inspiring.August 23, 2016 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #1176544
I still don’t get it. Why did they give him the $10? And what does that have to do with, “M’dvar sheker tirchak”?August 23, 2016 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #1176545
Perhaps the dollar resurfaced the week (day) of his levaya so that people couldn’t question the story
Or they made up a ten dollar bill so that people wouldn’t question the story
I’m sorry but it’s highly unlikely (not impossible though) that a ten would still be in circulation twenty years laterAugust 23, 2016 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #1176546
Because he asked to get paid a dollar to be principal and at the end of the year they gave him a ten
It looked like a new ten (they showed a picture of the ten dollar bill with the writing that it was an 1000% raise)
So I’m saying it can’t be that ten and its lying to say it is that ten
Additionally syag’s comment that the children never told her the story makes me wonder tooAugust 23, 2016 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #1176547
In that case, I agree with theprof1 that this whole thread is LH/Motzi Shem Ra and should be deleted. Kind of defeats the purpose of going to see the video in the first place.August 23, 2016 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #1176548
Also, I don’t know if you have to be accurate when it comes to stories. I remember once asking a sheilah about that regarding telling a story to make a point during a shiur and changing the details (either deliberately or because I didn’t know them – I no longer remember which), and I was told it’s fine.August 23, 2016 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #1176549
coffee – really? you must be kidding! What business do you have arguing a story that people who know him remember? The Dennis’ live in Florida, I live in Chicago. I went to summer camp with his kids when we were 11, 12 and 13 years old and over the years some of them married chicagaoans and our paths still cross. Why the heck would a 11 year old not telling that story over to his friends at camp be a validation of anything?! I find your questioning that to be pretty offensive. If you have a question about a story that has a name attached to it, either make a phone call to check it out, or keep your thoughts off of the internet.August 23, 2016 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #1176550
additionally, i was kind of surprised in the first place that someone like you – as you have presented yourself over the years – could have walked away from THAT story, in THAT venue with THAT thought.August 23, 2016 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #1176551
That’s true that it’s a kasha on a maaseh but I’m saying its brought as a proof, like saying believe me because I have a forged document
I thought you still knew them personally and talk to them on occasion (like you live in the same area)
I’m not discounting the story and saying it is false (it probably is true) and syag you should know me by now to be a shtickler for emes, it gives me a bad taste if I find someone or something is a lie (or getting to do something through a lie) and a lie kills the whole story imo and it would’ve Ben better if the story was told without a lieAugust 23, 2016 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #1176552
thank you very much for explaining your intent in this. I just wish you would have approached it as a quesiton on the filmmakers or a non-public question. You specifically question the story itself with a not-so-nice tone that is bothersome.
Bli neder, I will ask two friends to check out the dollar bill that was shown. I will not ask for validity on the story, or on the fact that the dollar showed up, I think that would be petty and disrespectful. But I will try to find the answer to the part that is bothering you simply because you are seeking truth.August 23, 2016 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #1176553
Thank you syag,
Can you explain which part was in a not so nice tone,
I asked did anyone see it and I was wondering if the ten looked like an old ten or new one
And lilmod asked what does it have to do about lying so I had to explain myselfAugust 24, 2016 12:22 am at 12:22 am #1176554
Or they made up a ten dollar bill so that people wouldn’t question the story
Additionally syag’s comment that the children never told her the story makes me wonder too
i don’t know. to me these two comments sound like you are challenging the truth of the story instead of wondering about the bill. I didn’t see the film (I have a problem with the concept in general), did they say that that was the original bill, or did they show a signed bill as a visual prop to go along with a narrative?August 24, 2016 12:37 am at 12:37 am #1176555
Coffee Addict – Emes is extremely important and it’s great that you have a passion for the truth. According to the Torah definition of Emes, Emes only includes things that lead to Shalom. That’s why we are supposed to lie for Shalom. Therefore, I think that in this case, Emes would dictate not starting a thread like this.August 24, 2016 12:38 am at 12:38 am #1176556
Moderators, why was this thread allowed to go through? It is pure motzi shem ra!August 24, 2016 1:00 am at 1:00 am #1176557
what here qualifies as motzi shem ra?August 24, 2016 9:29 am at 9:29 am #1176558
But if there was no point in showing the bill it doesn’t lead to anything the story would be nice without it (they even got the guy who signed it to tell details of the story)
They used it as a proof that “if you don’t believe me we just found the ten dollar bill recently” so it couldn’t have been a visual prop
The first comment was not saying that the story wasn’t true it was saying that they wanted to take any doubt from your mind (rabbi Shapiro said what I said above if you don’t believe me…)August 24, 2016 9:32 am at 9:32 am #1176559
If your wife asks you “where have you been” and you don’t want to tell her (she will be very upset if you went to a certain restaurant without her, and you did) you’re allowed to lie?
What if the case was worse than just a restaurant?August 24, 2016 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #1176560
coffee addict – it depends which way leads to more shalom. You’re assuming that most people would say you shouldn’t lie. If it’s true that you shouldn’t lie, the reason is that lying is bad for a relationship and leads to a lack of shalom. If that’s not the case and telling the truth would be bad for your relationship, then you should lie.
My guess is that when it comes to anything that could be found out, lying is probably worse for shalom.August 24, 2016 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #1176561
So that means that if I think I won’t get caught I should lie because of darchei Shalom?August 24, 2016 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #1176562
If it will cause lack of shalom if you tell the truth – yes. But I imagine that most of the time it’s the opposite.
I remember hearing that Rav Avigdor Miller talks about how it’s not good to share everything in a marriage. “Al tarbeh sicha im haisha.”
Hashem “lied” to Avraham about what Sara said for the sake of shalom.August 24, 2016 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #1176563
I was waiting for you to say that 😉
That proof is only where you can lie about someone else (if they did or didn’t do something) like Sarah saying my husband is old to switch to I am old
I’ll bring you a counter proof
The shefatim when they brought Yosef’s cloak didn’t say your son died rather they said is this your sons cloak to which Yaakov said a wild animal are him upAugust 25, 2016 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #1176564
Syag – “what here qualifies as motzi shem ra?”
Syag, I’m sorry, but I don’t quite understand your question, as you yourself stated that you thought it was problematic that CA brought this up in a public forum.
It is Motzi Shem Ra because he is posting a criticism of the person/people presenting the story. That is Loshon Hara/Motzi Shem Ra and it is assur. According to Halacha, you are not allowed to criticize a shiur.
If you want to know why I used the term Motzi Shem Ra instead of LH, it is because when someone speaks Loshon Hara, it is assur for me to “mekabel” it, and therefore I am required to relate to it as though it is false (and t/f Motzi Shem Ra and not LH).August 25, 2016 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #1176565
CA – 1. I realize that in Sara Imeinu’s case, she was not lying, so the two cases are not the same. I was just bringing that as a raaya that you can lie for shalom.
2. Regarding whether or not you can lie about yourself for shalom, I once asked a Rabbi and was told that you can. The person I asked was a Rabbi, someone learned and someone involved in Chinuch. However, he was not a poseik as far as I know. He also was answering on the spot, and my impression was that he was answering out of his own svara and not necessarily because he had seen a source for it.
However, I have never heard that it does not apply to someone lying about themselves and until I hear otherwise, I think it makes sense to assume that it does, and meanwhile I have been relying on what this Rav said. While this Rav may never have seen a source saying that it does apply to oneself, he clearly had never seen one that said it didn’t. If you know of such a source, I would be happy to see it.
3. Regarding the Shevatim, we are always supposed to minimize lying as much as possible even when it is necessary to lie. That doesn’t mean it’s not sheker, just that it is less so. We see this by Yaakov. On the one hand, he responded to Yitzchak in a manner that minimized his lie, but on the other hand, it was still considered a lie.
So on the one hand, the story with the Shevatim does not show that you can’t lie for yourself since you are always supposed to minimize a lie even when it’s not for yourself.
On the other hand, it may actually be an additional proof to my point, since they were “lying” for themselves when all is said and done even though the lie was minimized.
4. Whatever arguments you want to keep bringing about lying for shalom, it’s really a side point. The main point is stated in my above post to Syag.
5. I’m sorry, but I’m not really sure if I should keep posting on this thread, since it just makes the original post more likely to be read by more people. I did feel that it was important to make my points, but I’m not sure that it’s a good idea to continue this ad infinium (I know I probably got that word wrong, but I don’t care even if it invalidates my post since it now contains sheker). If I could continue this discussion off-line, I would be happy to, but it’s not possible. If you don’t believe me that it’s Motzi shem ra, maybe you should check with your LOR or call up the Shmiras Halashon hotline.August 26, 2016 1:16 am at 1:16 am #1176566
I just realized that you may have misunderstood my point from the beginning. The point was that it according to halacha, it is assur to say something bad about someone else. Since lying is considered a bad thing, by saying that someone else lied, you are saying something bad about them, and it is either lashon hara or motzi shem ra. Even if you want to argue that lying is not objectively bad (I’m not sure how you would do that, but hypothetically if you would), YOU clearly consider it something bad and you stated as much, so it is still loshon hora or motzi shem ra.
My point about lying for shalom was really a side point. I mentioned it because your defense of speaking loshon hara was that you believe in the truth. Bottom line, according to halacha, believing in the truth does not make it muttar to speak loshon hara/motzi shem ra. But I was trying to tell you that in a nice way, which got you sidetracked discussing when you can lie for shalom. Your examples of lying for shalom had nothing to do with the present case, since we are not talking about lying – it is not lying for you to not discuss something.August 31, 2016 12:52 am at 12:52 am #1176567
“what here qualifies as motzi shem ra?”
Midvar sheker tirchak- never tell a lie
Did anyone watch the chofetz chaim video on tisha b’av?
It eventually became clear that he was questioning the truth of the story.
(At least, I think that’s what happened here.) Claiming that the story was
false is claiming that its presenters were lying.
What if the case was worse than just a restaurant?
Q: “If I did something bad, whats the right thing to do?”
A: Oh, you’re concerned about the right thing, are you?!
I’ll bring you a counter proof:
The shefatim when they brought Yosef’s cloak didn’t say your son died rather they said is this your sons cloak to which Yaakov said a wild animal are him up
How about a source that that was the right thing to do?August 31, 2016 2:09 am at 2:09 am #1176568
How about a source that that was the right thing to do?
When it comes from to the Shevatim, we assume what they did was correct unless Chazal or the Rishonim tell us otherwise. If one wants to say they did the wrong thing, the burden of proof is on him.August 31, 2016 2:51 am at 2:51 am #1176569
So mechiras Yosef is justified, but Yaakov will be distressed to
hear of it, so misleading him is justified in order to spare him.
This doesn’t mean that if you do something actually wrong, it’s okay
to lie about it because hearing about it will distress the other person.
What do you say to that, Coffee Addict?August 31, 2016 3:44 am at 3:44 am #1176570
Comlink-x: they sold Yosef because they thought it was the right thing to do. They made a mistake in that, as we know from Chazal. Once they sold him (thinking it was the right thing to do), they lied about it. Chazal tell us that that they made a mistake in selling Yosef. I am not aware that they tell us that the Shevatim made a mistake in lying about it (It could be that they do, but you would need to find a source). I think it’s unlikely that they would have made a mistake about the halacha regarding lying in such a circumstance. This is a separate issue from Mechiras Yosef. There are two issues here:
1. The selling of Yosef
2. If selling Yosef was the right thing to do (as they assumed), would lying about it be okay?
Basically, whether or not selling Yosef was really the right thing to do in the first place, their psak halacha about lying had to do with lying when you did something RIGHT (since they had thought they did something right). So even if it was wrong, their Psak Halacha was based on what one should do when he has done the right thing, so we can learn from it regarding whether or not one should lie when he HAS acted correctly.
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