Milchig Meal on Shavuos

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Controversial Topics Milchig Meal on Shavuos

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 128 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1728276

    Minhag to eat milchig meal on Shavuos.

    To what extent?

    1. Is it a full meal (one of the Yom Tov seudos) and if so, which seuda/seudos?
    2. Must it specifically include cheese (or is milk enough)?
    3, Is one dish of milchig enough or does the entire seuda consist of only milchig?
    4. Does anyone serve pizza or is it considered not yom tov’dik?
    5. Does anyone use milk to make kiddush for this meal?

    I am not looking for the most lenient or any lenient opinions!

    #1728557

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The RMA SA O’CH 494,2 says to eat milcihig and then fleishig to have two breads, as we should not use the same bread for both, to commemorate the shtei halechem.

    #1728575

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Once again minhagim shonim. My family did not and does not split meals. it was either milchigs or fleishigs. However, the RAMAH states 494:3 OICHLIM MAACHAL CHALAV VACHAR KACH MAACHAL BASAR UZTRICHIM LHAVI EMAHEM BEIS LECHEM AHL HASHULCHAN. I once heard from a rav in my community that the minhag in Hungary was that the night meals were milchigs and the day meals fleishigs but I know people of hungarian descent who are not noheig that way.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49627&st=&pgnum=203

    NOTICE THE RAMAH SAYS CHALAV not gevina.
    I dont know anyone who holds milk to be chamar medina.

    why would pizza not be “yom tov’dik”? what about baked ziti, lasagne eggplant? my family has enjoyed all of these on shavuous along with blintzes and cheesecake.

    #1728591

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    We usually had a potato soup, fish and cheese blintzes.

    #1728598

    Dr. E
    Participant

    We are machmir and have Dairy for all 4 meals.

    #1728629

    “I dont know anyone who holds milk to be chamar medina.” – uh…Reb Moshe! …and others!

    See אג”מ ב, עה:
    חשיבות משקה הוא שאין השתיה מחמת שצריכים להם לצמאם אלא שותים אותם אף בלא צורך לגופם אלא בשביל כבוד הסעודה וכבוד האורחים. דאין שום אדם שותה יין ויי”ש ושכר לצמאו, דעל זה שותים מים שיותר עדיפי, אלא רק לכבוד בעלמא שותין אותם. ואלו המינים נקראים בשם משקה וחמר מדינה… וכשמכבדים לאורח בכוס חלב לא יוכל לומר שאינו רוצה לשתות משום שאינו צמא, דחלב שותים גם שלא לצימאון ויתחשב שאינו רוצה להתכבד ולכבד… אבל המיני סודה אין שותים אותם אלא לצימאון, וכשיכבדו אותו במשקה סודה והוא אינו צמא ולא ישתה לא יתחשב לאינו רוצה להתכבד ולכבד

    See also
    ערוך השולחן, אורח חיים, סימן רע”ב, סעיף י”ד
    ציץ אליעזר, חלק ח’, סימן ט”ז
    שמירת שבת כהלכתה פרק ס סעי’ ו,
    שו”ת אבני ישפה ח”א סי’ ס,
    ארחות רבינו ח”א עמ’ קכא

    #1728628

    “fish and cheese blintzes” – I guess you aren’t careful not to eat fish with cheese. Cheese comes from an animal by-product, therefore, eating fish with cheese is like eating fish with meat (a sakona)! I hope you are aware that is a huge kulah because issues of sakona are more chomur than issur (chamarta sakanta mi’issura). I would never ever c”v eat fish in the same course as meat.

    #1728627

    “why would pizza not be “yom tov’dik”? ” – We once had an adom gadol for a sukkos yom tov meal, we had a bar-b-q going on a low flame, so we served hamburgers, hot dogs and bar-b-q wings. The adom gadol complained that it is not yom tov’dik. He said just like it is not suitable to wear weekday clothes on shabbos and yom tov, so too once must not serve weekday foods. Pizza is definitely associated with weekday foods, therefore, it isn’t yom tov’dik!

    #1728637

    “we should not use the same bread for both, to commemorate the shtei halechem”

    …huh?

    We do not use the same bread from a milchig meal to a fleishig meal EVEN during the week (when no shtei halachem is required)! Even the same salt dish is not used for both milchig and fleishig.

    I know what the Ramo is saying and it isn’t what you wrote (here is a clue: see MB s”k 15).

    #1728626

    Dr E, I admire your chumra, but it brings a kulah, of not having bossor for simchas yom tov!!

    Mind you, the bossor need not be part of a seuda, you can be yotzeh simchas yom tov b’bossor by simply having a slice of cold cuts as a snack. So I guess you can have your (cheese) cake and eat it (the bossor) too.

    #1728654

    The Pri Migodim s. 89 states a chumra to not have milk and meat in the same seuda, therefore one should bentch after the michigs and then wait an hour before having the fleishig meal,

    #1728848

    reb G. Please define an adom gadol. a noted poseik in Flatbush once was told that an Adom Gadol said ” something and his response was just how tall was he? Which leads me to question what is the “geder” for a “weekday” food. Is it based on time and place? Would sushi be a “weekday” food? My wife bakes salmon fillets every Thursday night for supper? does make it a “weekday” food that can’t be served on shabbos? if so it may fall under the concept of “ein ldavar sof”. My family enjoys mushroom and onion kugel? it that not a shabbos maachol since my family enjoys it? many shuls serve egg salad and tuna fish at seuda shlishis? isnt that “weekday food?

    #1728894

    lower – the same “geder” as what is considered “shabbos clothes”? If you wear a suit all week, THAT suit is not an article of special clothing TO YOU for shabbos. Is it that complicated?! Same with shabbos shoes.

    #1728904

    …hich is why people have a shabbos talis and a shabbos hatetc. Everything for shabbos should be special for that person. Now, normally people eat pizza during week, and for most people it isn’t a “special foods”, so it is voch’idig to eat pizza or hot dogs and burgers for a seuda on shabbos or yom tov.

    Seuda shlishis we are meikil on the food, so there is no “proof” from what is served in shuls for that seuda. we are even yoteh with mezonos or fruit or divrei torah (as per shulchan oruch)

    #1728910

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “– We once had an adom gadol for a sukkos yom tov meal, we had a bar-b-q going on a low flame, so we served hamburgers, hot dogs and bar-b-q wings. ”

    That never happened

    #1728921

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    RG, we only wait a 1/2 hour between milk and meat. You can eat something in between fish and meat. You can eat cheese blintzes after the fish maybe not together.

    #1728922

    maybe we dont serve pizza on shabbos because we generally eat fleishigs not because it is a weekday food. again, what is the geder? my children find franks n blanks a special maachil but in your opinion it would be a weekday food. I have a shabbos talis that is the exact same as my weekday talis (size and cost) but it is set aside or shabbos. Why is pizza diferent from blintzes or salmon croquettes ot potato knishes or lox and whitefish? And where do see that we are meikel with the food for seuda shlishi and why is it not a proof? isn’t it still shabbos? Bettre uestion, do you serve any cold cuts on shabbos?

    #1728926

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    You eat shabbos what ever is chaviv to him.

    #1728952

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    or divrei torah (as per shulchan oruch)

    Where in S.A. does it say divrei Torah is valid for the third seuda?

    #1728934

    RG: on another point, while sefardim are machmir on not mixing fish and milchigs many ashkenazim are not (ie how many times is lox and cream cheese served at a seudas bris?

    #1728962

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    if so it may fall under the concept of “ein ldavar sof”

    Just because you don’t know where to draw the line doesn’t mean there isn’t one. Hamburgers, hot dogs, and pizza are not Shabbosdik. They’re considered casual fare in general.

    #1728975

    DY: that is the question? where is the line? I can say anything is a “weekday” food and therefore is not shabbos dik. You say hot dogs and hamburgers are not shabbos dik? what about roasted chicken? what makes that more shabbosdik? are meatballs shabbosdik? what makes hard salami shabbosdik? or herring? or gefilte fish? or boiled carp? or shnitzel? or even cholent? imean people in texas eat chili all week long. What makes blintzes and cheesecake yomtovdik for shavuous and pizza is not?

    #1728972

    “while sefardim are machmir on not mixing fish and milchigs many ashkenazim are not ” – yes, askenazim who don’t know better, are meikil (even those that pride themselves with being machmir in halacha and are mekabel chumros of various shitos). There is some leeway, if the sakana is “milk” davka with fish, vs. butter, cheese etc. So there is room to wimp out and be meikil. But if you accept the Chasam Sofer that milk is basically an animal by-product, then eating lox with cream cheese id the same as eating lox with roast beef.

    #1728969

    DY, “where in S.A. does it say divrei Torah is valid for the third seuda?”

    Seuda Shlishis is treated differently than the other two seudos. As such there are opinions that apply ONLY to that mean (and not to the other two meals).

    Regarding “an opinion” in S.A. of being yotzeh with divrei Torah:

    Magen Avraham (444:2) quotes the Shlah, who writes in the name of the Zohar (Parashat Emor, on the verse “eleh moadei,” 95a), that Rav Shimon bar Yochai (Rashbi) studied Ma’aseh Merkavah (Ezekiel 1) in lieu of the Seuda Shlishis when erev Pesach was on Shabbat. Thus it appears that according to the Zohar, the obligation to eat the Third Meal can be fulfilled via Torah study.

    Indeed, the 3 seudos are based on the 3 times it says “Hayom” by the mon, yet the 3rd time it says “Hayom Lo”, hence the dispensation for having a seudah without the full requirements of a seuda,

    #1728986

    “we only wait a 1/2 hour between milk and meat” – when halacha says “sha’ah” (hour) it doesn’t mean half an hour. yes, there are shitos that are meikil to simply rinse and wipe mouth, but we are talking about those shitos that require a hefsek of sha’ah.

    #1728995

    While many Chassidic communities make a big deal of seuda shlishis, many Yekkas (German Yidden that keep those unique minhagim) and many in Chabad Chassidus davka do not wash for bread at seuda shlishis.

    Shabbat 117b derives from the thrice repeated word “hayom” — “today” — that three meals should be eaten on Shabbat. Nevertheless, halachically there is leniency regarding the need to eat bread at the third meal (see Orach Chaim 291). The reason is that the manna was described as “lechem” — “bread” (Shemot 16:15), and after the third “hayom” — “today” — the verse reads, “Lo timza’uhu basadeh” — “You shall not find it in the field.”

    Hence, the phenomenon of not finding the bread is commemorated by not eating a meal with bread for the third meal.
    (לבוש סימן רצ”ה ס”ה)

    Bach (Tur, Orach Chaim 291) writes that the first meal of Shabbat corresponds to the first Shabbat of creation, the second to the Shabbat of the giving of the Torah, and the third to the Shabbat of the World to Come.

    Berachot 17a says that in the World to Come there is no eating or drinking, a regular meal with bread is omitted.

    The purpose of eating tasty food on Shabbat is strictly to experience “oneg” — “delight.” Hence, one who has reached the level at which he truly feels the exalted spiritual aura prevailing during the time of the third meal, that it is a period of rava deravin — most favorable Supernal Will — with a resemblance of the World to Come, where there will be no eating, but through hearing divrei Torah, he accomplishes his “delight” by “spiritual food and spiritual nourishment” of Torah.

    #1728998

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Thus it appears that according to the Zohar, the obligation to eat the Third Meal can be fulfilled via Torah study.

    No it doesn’t. It appears that if you can’t eat seudah shlishis, such as on erev Pesach, you should learn.

    #1728999

    lower – ask yourself, what makes wearing sneakers and jeans not shabbosdik? Well, truth be told, it “might” be shabbosdig for someone who only wears flip flops during week, so it is choshuv for him/her to wear snaekers on shabbos. Indeed, for some hotdogs or pizza may be a “special” meal, and not the usual far. But for most of us…it is obvious, that pizza, hot dogs, snealers, jeans are not shabbosdig or yom tov’dig. (Although you might be for the exception).

    #1729002

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Indeed, the 3 seudos are based on the 3 times it says “Hayom” by the mon, yet the 3rd time it says “Hayom Lo”, hence the dispensation for having a seudah without the full requirements of a seuda

    Apparently, that’s not the opinion of the Rashbi, who skipped seuda shlishlis on erev Pesach and didn’t substitute peiros.

    #1729003

    RG: once again you use your favorite “wimp out” comment. and “ashkenazim dont know better are meikel”. Did you ever consider the real possibility we dont consider it a sakana? Even the Mogan Avrahom states that the the sakana of fish and meat may no longer be in effect. See MB (173: 3). Please show me the gemora that states outright that fish and milchigs are a sakana.

    #1729004

    DY, “if you can’t eat seudah shlishis, such as on erev Pesach, you should learn”, yes, I know the GRA 444:7 interprets the Zohar (and the M.A. that way), as does the Meiri Pesachim 13a etc.

    But others take the M.A. at face value – applicable to EVERY shabbos. (This is quite logical since it is in Hilchos Shabbos and not Hilchos Erev Pessach)

    Of note, the Kaf HaChayim 444:18 (no, I am not Sefardi – just a Jew) states that the Rashbi was able to accomplish Seuda Shilshi through learning Kabbalah and drawing the spiritual manifestations of the seuda through learning but we cannot do so (clearly the Kaf Hachayim applies this Zohar to EVERY seuda shlishis, not just shabbos of erev pessach).

    #1729013

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The מגן אברהם clearly says it was במקום סעודה שלישית, not that he was מקיים it.

    #1729015

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    clearly the Kaf Hachayim applies this Zohar to EVERY seuda shlishis, not just shabbos of erev pessach

    Clearly, the Kaf Hachayim says we must actually eat to be mekayem seudah shlishis.

    Rashbi also didn’t daven three times a day, but we obviously must.

    #1729018

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So what you quoted as Shulchan Aruch is not in the Shulchan Aruch, not in the Nosei Keilim, and not in any of the mainstream poskim.

    Maybe you found some online article which says it, but you haven’t found any real source, let alone in Shulchan Aruch as you claimed.

    #1729020

    DY, you are correct that the Kaf Hachayim holds that we must NOT follow the custom of the Rashbi o simply learn Torah at Shalash Seudos, but we must eat a seuda.

    However, I mentioned the Kaf Hachayim because he CLEARLY holds NOT like the GRA or Meiri. He holds that Rashbi did so EVERY shabbos. As such, the Kaf Hachayim holds that the M.A.’s opinion based on the Zohar/Shalah does not apply ONLY to erev pessach which YOU POSTED as a blanket statement – correctly supported by GRA and Meiri, but not according to others, specifically the Kaf Hachayim.

    Do you follow?

    #1729021

    DY – “what you quoted as Shulchan Aruch is not in the Shulchan Aruch, not in the Nosei Keilim, and not in any of the mainstream poskim”

    I quoted the Magen Ahrohom. Admittedly, there is a debate if the MA applies ONLY to erev pessach – a position you take, supported by GRA and Meiri, or if the M.A. applies to EVERY shabbos – a position applied by others, and I provided an example from Kaf Hachayim.

    The Magen Avrohom is a “mainstream posek”. How to learn pshat in the M.A. is up for debate between later poskim.

    #1729025

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I totally follow. There are zero sources which allow us to not eat shalishudis.

    The Mogen Avraham is not saying we can skip shalishudis. Not even on erev Pesach, since we hold we can be yotzei b’dieved with peiros. He is bringing the Rashbi as an opinion that peiros aren’t sufficient, but isn’t paskening that way for erev Pesach.

    #1729028

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Note that the Kaf Hachayim does not claim to be explaining the Mogen Avraham, just the Rashbi.

    He also doesn’t say he did it every week; in fact, he brings the Zohar as the M.A. does, that he only did it on erev Pesach.

    In theory, the reason the K.H. ascribes to the Rashbi not eating shalishudis on erev Pesach should apply the whole year, yet he doesn’t claim that he did it the whole year. Presumably, even the Rashbi only relied on the “shvilei d’shmaya” sevara when he couldn’t eat pas.

    #1729022

    The little I know
    Participant

    RG:

    The Ari Zal states to have completely different clothing for Shabbos and weekday, including a tallis. Whether the appearance is the same is not mentioned. As for Shalosh Seudos with Divrei Torah, that is the Chabad line. It is unique, and is not accepted elsewhere, not among Poskim, not among Chassidim elsewhere. Being yotzeh with Divrei Torah is not a lechatchila according anyone besides Chabad. Your quip about Hayom Lo is also not accepted anywhere else. You can push the Chabad agenda, but the CR is not the place for it. It is only referenced in halacha with regards to Erev Pesach. I suppose one could argue that someone that cannot eat for other reasons might at least substitute with Divrei Torah, but I would look to a Posek to support that. The Rav Shulchan Aruch does not bring down about substituting Divrei Torah for food at Shalosh Seudos.

    In terms of what is Shabbosdige food, it is challenging to make most across the board statements. Can one use a can of tuna for fish at the first 2 Shabbos meals? How about sardines? Perhaps suchi? Our answers to this will be tough to put into anything specific in halacha, and it more dependent on our personal judgment. That leaves it extremely variable to cultural differences. There are foods that were common in different communities, with Sefardim and Ashkenazim being only one such difference.

    The fish and milk issue is actually interesting. It seems that the source for this is a typo, in which the posek was referring to the sakanah involved in eating fish together with meat, and either wrote or the typesetter wrote cholov instead of bassar. This custom is not widely accepted, and the majority of the frum community eats lox with cream cheese, for example. It is inaccurate and unfair to refer to this as being machmir or meikil. I have discussed this issue with rabbonim and poskim. Not a single one agreed that there is “chumrah” to not eat fish with dairy.

    Lastly, it is noted that the Shulchan Aruch states that the minhag on Shavuos is to eat מאכלי חלב, and there are numerous reasons given. There is only one that can be interpreted to refer to cheese, the posuk in Tehillim that calls Har Sinai ההר גבנונים. Interesting that in Hilchos Chanukah, it states clearly that the custom is גבינה, and there is no direct reference in SA to milk. The MB states that Yehudis gave the general cheese. There is a nice pilpul for this.

    There is a famous vort from the Chiddushei Harim where he states that every day of the year corresponds to one of the Mitzvos Lo Saaseh. He references that Tish’a B’Av corresponds to Gid Hanosheh. He states that Shavuos corresponds to the issue of bassar b’cholov. In order to demonstrate that we are following this mitzvah, we eat both dairy and meat, and wait the requisite time between them.

    #1729029

    DY – “The מגן אברהם clearly says it was במקום סעודה שלישית, not that he was מקיים it.”
    You make a diyuk on the word במקום?
    LOL, make the same diyuk with קידוש במקום סעודה to say “not that he was מקיים it”!

    #1729037

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Now you’re being silly. במקום can mean “in the same place as”, as in kiddush b’makom seudah, or “in place of”, as the Mogen Avraham is using it here. To read into the Mogen Avraham that you can be yotzei with divrei Torah is just another of your infamous distortions.

    #1729044

    And במקום can mean “to replace”,as here, the M.A. holds that divrei Torah can replace the seuda of seuda shlishis.

    #1729058

    Another diyuk on the word במקום:
    לעולם ילמוד אדם תורה במקום שלבו חפץ
    Great musser vort: Learn Torah “instead of” the hearts desires!

    #1729053

    little – ” As for Shalosh Seudos with Divrei Torah, that is the Chabad line. It is unique, and is not accepted elsewhere, not among Poskim, not among Chassidim elsewhere… anyone besides Chabad.”

    There is a halachic sefer called Mateh Efrayim (as far as I know, this sefer has nothing to do with Chabad – but I may rarely be wrong) 602:42 that one can rely on divrei Torah when rov gave a long shabbos shuva derasha past the zman to wash,

    (In contrast, and for complete disclosure, the Mateh Efrayim himself writes in 597:2 that who are we to compare ourselves to the Rashbi – yo be yotzeh seudah shlishis with divrei torah).

    Also Sh”t Tzitz Eliezer vol 17, s. 13.

    #1729064

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The chalacha SA YD 89,2 does not say an hour between milk (not hard cheese) and meat.

    #1729076

    Biur HaGr”a (Y”D 89, 11) cites Zohar (Parshas Mishpatim pg. 125, 1) that everyone should wait between dairy and meat meals “one meal or ONE HOUR”!

    The most common pshat of waiting ONE HOUR means literally “one hour”: See Beis Yosef (O.C. 173, s.v. V’yesh machmirin), Shach (Y”D 89, 15), Pri Chadash (Y”D 89, 6), Gr”a (ibid.), Chida (Shiyurei Bracha Y”D 89, 6, s.v. v’ani and Kikar L’Aden 5, Likutim, 8), and Ikrei HaDa”t (Ikrei Dinim Y”D 10, 5).

    This is the ACCEPTED halacha according to multiple poskim: Including the Pri Chadash (ibid.), Pri Toar (ibid.), Shulchan HaTahor (173, 2), Shu”t Kol Gadol (64). See also Shiyurei Bracha (ibid. 13) and Shu”t Teshuvos V’Hanhagos (vol. 2, 390) who cite waiting an hour as a proper minhag.

    (An exception can be made if eating chicken after dairy…see Pri Chadash, Pri Toar, Ya’avetz (Mor U’Ketziah end 173) and Aruch Hashulchan (Y”D 89, 11) qualify this ruling, that the one hour waiting period does not apply before eating fowl).

    It is very dangerous to post KULOS in a public forum, even if that happens to be your minhag, because others may c”v rely on it to wimp out on halacha.

    It is not such a big problem to post CHUMRAS, because (1) most people are content with their lvel of observance and don’t wish yo be chored lidvar Hashem; (2) Should they begin to follow the chumra, there is no downside to being kadesh atzmecha b’mutar lach.

    #1729077

    …waiting only 1/2 hour as you do relies on the kulah of rubo k’kulo (applied by d’rabbonon) – which is a HUGE kula. Being consistent, would you wait 3 hours instead of 6 hrs after meat? It is the same/similar kula, and used by many Yekka families…are you Yekka, then keep the minhag, but otherwise….

    #1729082

    The little I know
    Participant

    RG:

    You referenced “Also Sh”t Tzitz Eliezer vol 17, s. 13.”

    Looked, and found nothing relevant to the discussion.

    In my earlier comment, I was stating clearly that with the exception of Chabad, no one supports the Divrei Torah as a substitute for Shlosh Seudos as a lechatchila. There can always be exceptions, and Erev Pesach is one example. Shabbos Teshuvah drosho is another. Here, it is bedi’eved. If you find additional exceptions, that would have no bearing on my point.

    As for the Mateh Efraim noting that we cannot simply compare ourselves to Rashbi, that is essentially the Gemora (Brochos 36b) where it states הרבה עשו כרבי שמעון ב”י ולא עלתה בידם. One cannot always mimic the actions of a tzaddik. One needs to follow the instructions as found in Shas and Shulchan Aruch.

    #1729091

    אין עניות במקום עשירות
    Can also be translated:
    Poverty (of knowledge) cannot replace wealth (of knowledge).

    #1729125

    Little – “There can always be exceptions, and Erev Pesach is one example. Shabbos Teshuvah drosho is another”

    Well, the Shabbos Teshuva Drosha going past shekiya is a situation that can be avoided – I wouldn’t call it unavoidable, as erev pessach when one CANNOT eat a seudah.

    If the Gabbay (and all the mispalalim who are surely looking at their watch) interrupt the rov and tell him to continue during Seudah Shlishis. They would do so if they haven’t yet davened Mincha and shkiya is approaching!

    If it is a true “chiyuv” to eat a seuda, this would call for a hefsek in the drasha – unless, they can l’chol hadayos be yotzeh with divrei Torah (and be somech on the M.A. per Zohar for that shabbos)

    Coming from Yekkas, many family members davka do NOT wash for seuda shlishis as is their tradition – so it is not exclusive a Chabad minhag. (IN fact, the Rav S.A> says not to rely on other opinions and one MUST wasj for seuda shlishis – so I don’t know how Chabad changed that).

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 128 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending