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Since there is a “worldwide plea”, I’m curious if anyone from the CR is planning on attending.
Thanks.
G@W
I plan on going.
Are you sponsoring my trip?
Nobody is sponsoring my trip – but you can be with us in spirit and join us in saying Tehillim at the same time from wherever you are.
gavra_at_work
I’m not sure there’s anything particularly insightful about thousands of people saying Tehillim together. But I’ll try to report back.
If the gedolim say we should go then I plan on going…
Who is the nudnik that decided to call this event the “Million Man …”? That phrase in the US is most closely associated with a bow-tie-wearing, Quran-quoting fake phony fraud who is a raging anti-Semite. Moreover, like the aforesaid fake phony fraud, this is not expected to have even half a million participants. In all of Eretz Yisrael, there are less than 4,000,000 men, including Muslims and non-frum Jews. Where do the promoters of this event think they are going to get 1,000,000 participants?
nfgo3
Considering the fact that women in Yerushalyim are invited as well as children. I think you are already wrong.
Since the Million Man March occurred on (Shmini) Atzeres, it makes perfect sense to have a Million Man Atzeres in March.
I thought the goal of a million was simple inflation. If R’ Ovadia’s funeral drew about 800,000 (by liberal estimates), then that should be the minimum to aim for for any future Kinnus.
This is hardly a joke. If the pro-zionist Hareidi parties (Agudath Israel, Degel ha-Torah and Shas) can convince the seculars (particularly Bayit Yehudi and Likud) to give up on the idea of mass conscription, the crisis will end. At worst the only penalty for anyone who refuses to serve will be to be treated like an Arab in terms of benefits (which isn’t all that bad). Based on the secular media, at this point Likud as well as many with Bayit Yehudi believe that with conscription most hareidim will end up (sooner or later) going to the army for a lengthy period of time, and will emerge as “normal” people who will likely vote for Likud or Bayit Yehudi. They thought they would get an extra brigade similar to the existing (volunteer) hareidi one, and a lot of new supporters (once they “see the light” and stop being hareidi. If the demonstrations fail to disabuse the Likud and Bayit Yehudi of these notions there will be a conflict that could destroy or at least disrupt the state (at best the hareidi ally with the Israeli left to stop conscription in return for a pull out from the West, at Bank, at worst, an alliance with the goyim to replace the zionist state with a non-zionist one that will recognize Hareidi autonomy and religious freedom in return for letting the Muslims run the government). The demonstration may be the last chance for the pro-zionist hareidim to end the crisis before those willing to embrace the anti-zionist (Eidah hareidis, Satmar, Neturei Karta, etc.) positions retake leadership of the hareidi community and pursue a path leading to confrontation.
akuperma – I’m not sure where you got this idea that Agudath Israel, Degel ha-Torah and Shas. HaRav Shach, z”l stated clearly years ago that they share the same views of the Medina as Eidah Hareidis and Satmar. The only difference between them is how to deal with them. We are no more their friends than you. The only difference is you hold to separate yourself entirely and we feel to work with them in order to protect ourselves. I can’t tell you who’s right. It is two different approaches and in the end we will know.
BTW – which camp do you associate yourself with? Please don’t tell me that you sit amongst the reckless Neturei Karta hoodlums!
The three parties that sit in the Kenesset have grown very zionist over the last 65 years. They accept and cover government money. Most of their Kenesset members have served in the IDF at some point. They have encouraged future baal ha-battim who drop out of yeshiva to join the IDF. They have politically been fully involved in the wheeling and dealing of Israeli politics. One might say they forgot their roots in the hareidi opposition to zionism of 90 years ago. The current events are a rude awakening (similar to when German Jews discovered their countrymen didn’t like them, similar to American isolationists who discovered that their view of the world was totally disconnected from reality, similar to many American leftists when they discovered that “Uncle Joe” was really not a nice guy).
I’m hasidische, dress modern during the week, with a kapote and homburg on Shabbos, and daven in a shul where the announcements are still in Yiddish.
This is doomed to fail
The Chilonim win either way, Either the Charedim are drafted and forced to work and get off government assistance or the Charedim leave the country and frankly I suspect the Chilonim (and many of the DL’s as well) would prefer they leave and would even help them pack.
No, I am not attending.
The Wolf
gavra_at_work
The men are going to be along Yirmiyahu Street and the women along Yaffo Street.
15 years ago,when there was a protest against the bias of the israeli judiciary,there were about half a million.
Given the broad support among Rabbonim for today’s event,and the growth of the frum population,a million is not far-fetched.
The only point that really matters is how many people will be mekadesh shem shomayim,by davvening and saying shema yisroel together-and may we say chacham harozim.A million is immaterial.
Akuperma,
Talk about disconnected from reality. Name a Muslim country wiyh freedom of religion, particularly in the Mideast.
In London there are local atzeres to coincide with the EY one. Going.
lesschumras, he isn’t disconnected from reality; he’s connected with a personal simulacrum reality — the notion that there’s basically no State of Israel but rather 1920s-style Zionism and Zionists, the ostensible obsession of all “Zionists” with defeating the practice of Judaism, the idea that ceasing to take “Zionist money” excuses one from obeying national laws, the imminent glorious bloodbath, and (trumpets!) the reinstatement of benevolent Muslim rule. The whole refrain, repeated tirelessly up to ten times a day.
“The men are going to be along Yirmiyahu Street and the women along Yaffo Street.”
Then why is it called the million man atzeres?
Goq,
just came back. so curious how many were actually there. it was so cool to see so many Jews of yerushalayim migrating towards that area to say tehillim and daven together. it was really nice and inspirational!
The police tried many ways to stop us from coming – like in Benei Brak they stopped buses and didn’t let them go after 2 pm, and in Route 443 they blocked the traffic – lucky the buses from Kiriat Sefer were smart and went around, passing through the arab villages with the arabs amazed watching bus after bus full of frum people going past, and some even waved to them with thumbs up! I know first hand this info.
zahavasdad: It will not fail. IF the zionists don’t back down, the end result will be the hareidim supporting a “one state” solution, which means their won’t be a zionist majority in Eretz Yisrael. The UN and the US will demand a free election, with all Palestinians voting, and the zionists are out of power. Don’t underestimate the impact of a large non-zionist Jewish population being in the spotlight. For those learning Torah, an Arab government isn’t a threat. Job discrimination against hareidim will be no worse (currently second class citizens, still second class citizens with the Muslims back in charge). And the Arabs don’t oppose Torah and Mitsvos. For secular Israelis, it will be a disaster – which is why they’ll probably back down. Remember Israel is dependent on American foreign aid, and that will dry up the moment the first US immigration judge hands a green card to a hareidi refuguee fleeing Israeli persecution.
Yes akuperma, but do you feel it’s likely that an Arab government would fund Yeshivos? Would an Arab government provide funding for the educational, nutritional and health needs of the children of Jewish men who don’t earn a salary? Would they subsidize their rent and mortgages so they have a place to live in this Arab state?
And with regard to an Arab government (Ch”v) in E”Y, does “TARPAT” ring a bell to you at all?
The Status Quo that went into effect regarding Yeshiva students army enlistment always have large holes in the system.
Two possibilities that were never envisioned:
1. What happens when an avreich is ready to leave yeshiva (for whatever reason?)? In the past Rabbis Shach, Shmuelvitz, Schwartzman, etc ordered them to enlist in the short 18month post Yeshiva program.
2. There has grown a larger than imagined fifth column of Bnei Yeshiva who are not continuing in TORASU UMENASU….. what are their responsibilities to the State that they live in and are citizens of?
If these two issues would have been dealt with efficiently then today’s rally, decrees, government situation would NEVER have arisen.
I was there today. Unbelievable. Huge chizuk
Akuperma – I still don’t have a clear picture of who you try to follow. Are you Eidah hareidis, Satmar, or Neturei Karta?
After seeing all the pictures…I think if Rav Shteinman called this event even to only get all the frum yidden on the same “page” and restore achdus it was all worth it
squeak – very cute
I *really* mean no disrespect.
Our eldest son (11th grade) is now going through the preliminaries vis-a-vis his eventual induction into the IDF for what should be at least 3 years of compulsory service. I served in the IDF reserves for 11 years (during which time I was in Lebanon, on the Egyptian border & in the Jordan Valley). How is it that our son and thousands of his peers should be the hewers of wood & drawers of water (to use a Biblical metaphor) for thousands of other(wise healthy) Jews who use their Torah study to claim privilege for themselves? How is it that, when our son is inducted, my wife & I will have to live with the existential dread that the next knock on the door could be two officers from the Adjutancy Corps when other parents can be rest assured that their children are safe & sound, far from harm’s way, in some haredi yeshiva? (Ditto for my wife/haredi wives back when I was still doing annual reserve duty.)
Defending the Land of Israel and the people who live therein is holy work! The difference between the young man or woman in the IDF and the comfortable haredi yeshiva student is that while the former are living up to the courage of their convictions (and may, chas v’chalila, pay the ultimate sacrifice), the latter’s convictions require no courage (no similar sacrifice). How is it not a gross distortion of Torah that so many healthy Jews use their Torah study as crowns to aggrandize themselves & as spades to dig with while their peers daily risk life and limb? Quoth Abraham Lincoln’s second innaugural address: “It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God’s assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men’s faces”
I am *not* trying to be chatzuf or smart-alecky but there is something here that I do not understand.
Koldmamadaka, beautifully written post.
Not chatzuf, and not smart-alecky, but unfair, I believe.
There are two ways to approach the issue you address: logical, and emotional.
Regarding the former, it can be explained very well why chareidim feel that Torah learning should be chosen over army service, both from the perspective of the tremendous value of Torah, and from the perspective of the spiritual danger involved in military service in today’s reality.
If you argue emotionally about the fact that your son risks his life while others’ don’t, there is no way to counter that; it is true, and there is no way to convince you to be happy that you need to worry for his safety.
But the charedi approach is based in the former, reasoned approach, and your (and many others’) approach seems rooted in the faulty assumption that it’s based on not caring about your son’s safety, ch’v. That is why it’s an unfair argument.
I have stated that I feel strongly that everyone must feel hakaras hatov towards those who risk their lives to protect other Yidden. I should add, that I feel hakaras hatov towards the parents who send them, as well as sympathy for living with that “incessant dread”.
But that doesn’t mean I have to agree to the decision to send to the army, or make that decision for my son.
Let me again stress that I don’t either intend to be offensive. This is a very highly emotionally charged issue, and I in no way minimize the tremendous mesiras nefesh involved in sending a child to the army.
DY: That logical response, however, rings just a little false when there are things like yesterday’s Atzeres. If the opinion actually is that Torah protects better than anything else, why ever stop learning to gather and Daven (or protest, in other situations)? Learning should be a better defense. Or, in previous wars, when sirens went off people ran to bunkers, not staying learning.
I don’t mean this disrespectfully. I’m just saying that when push comes to shove, it seems that many, many people don’t really believe that the Torah protects them better than practicality.
About Frumkeit in the army. Yes, there are major problems. I have long since felt, though, that the more Frum people that join the more Frum the army will become, for obvious reasons.
koldmamadaka: not only beautiful but right!A sane voice in the desert!
DaasYochid: Please explain to me where does it say-anywhere- that such a substantial part of the Jewish people must be supported by the others (involuntary, may I add)and can cavalierly free itself of the obligation to be part of the klal?
You are learned enough that I don’t have to quote the gemoros, Rambams, Pesukin in Ttorah that clearly tell us we have to share the burden. I think that this march will only exarcebarate this issue and-ultimately- will strip the chareidim of all support.
Hi DaasYochid!
“…the perspective of the tremendous value of Torah…”
I (think) I know what you mean.
“…the spiritual danger involved in military service in today’s reality.”
I do not know what you mean. Please explain.
“If you argue emotionally…”
I make no bones about it. I’m *very* emotional. I have friends & neighbors whose kids/other loved ones/ are buried in military cemeteries.
“…your (and many others’) approach seems rooted in the faulty assumption that it’s based on not caring about your son’s safety…”
I do not make that assumption. As an Israeli worker & taxpayer who can barely keep our family afloat financially (my wife works full time too), who did annual reserve duty for 11 years and who will soon see the eldest of our 2 boys go off to the IDF (with all that implies), I question why is it that I must bear the additional financial burden of supporting those who will not bear the same burdens (financial, emotional & physical) that I must/did.
“I should add, that I feel hakaras hatov towards the parents who send them, as well as sympathy for living with that ‘incessant dread’.”
Thank you. I appreciate (really) your hakaras hatov but what I would appreciate even more would be you sharing that incessant dread and your son serving with mine.
“Let me again stress that I don’t either intend to be offensive.”
Don’t worry; you’re not. 🙂
“This is a very highly emotionally charged issue…”
1) Correct.
2) And we can discuss it civilly! 🙂
Sam,
Very little time for a proper response, but:
1) Often, bitulo zehu kiyumo
2) It’s not about kavana; I don’t know why Torah can’t be maigen when learned for any reason (except lekanter).
3) At what price – how many korbonos?
Those that serve in the military with the intent of protecting Yidden I feel desrve thanks.
And what I feel is largley unimportant since the facts are that many of the same Gedolim that called for the Atzeres Tefilla also have stated that soldiers deserve thanks. I think YWN recently had such an article from Hagaon Rav Gershon Edelstien shlita.
However leaving out the emotions from all of this lets look at it in cold logical way.
Is “Shivyon B’Netel’ about chareidim sharing combat risks?
Well it can’t be since right now virtually all combat positions in the IDF are voluntary. Even if someone is drafted into the army they don’t serve in a combat position unless they volunteer for it.
Those that don’t volunteer serve in positions that are largley out of the line of fire and hardship. Many become “jobniks” of the sort that cost the military more then they gain.
So Shivyon B’Netel is not in any way about everyone in the nation taking an equal share in combat hardships.
However it can be argued that Shivyon B’Netel is because the p’tur of “Torati Umnati” has become a mockery. Hundreds of chareidi youth do not serve nor do they sit and learn rather they roam the streets.
The only problem with that is that many, many of these youth do serve and until the Ateres were encouraged to do so by Maran HaRav Aaron Leib Shteinman shlita, the very one who called for the Atzeres.
So Shivyon B’Netel cannot be about that either.
So what is Shivyon b’Netel about?
Well it can be argued that Shivyon B’Netel is about everyone at least playing a supporting role for the IDF since without support the combat missions can not be successful.
But if that’s the case then we really truly have reached an ideological impasse.
We chareidim believe, in fact our way of life the thinkinking that make’s us “chareidi” is the Mesorah that in fact is layed out in full display with literally thousands of sources in Nefesh HaChaim Shar Daled by Rav Chaim Volozhiner the founder of the modern day yeshiva movement, that the tens of thousands of Lomdei Torah are playing the most important support roles possibe.
We believe that the Yeshivos, and the Kollelim that is unparelled in the entire world and is largley chareidi, is what provide’s the zchusim for the combat missions to be successful.
Without them the military would lose, just as the odds in virtuallye very single all out war have said they should lose.
As such we Chareidim believe that “playing” with the Status Quo agrrements in Isreal is perhaps the single most dangerous thing that can be done.
And at this time when the State of Sireal is truly in Peril when the modern day nation of Haman in Persia raise they’re head, and the Sec of State of a country the State of SIreal has always counted on seem’s to be uniting the seventy wolves against the State.
Well, people would be wise to think twice over who cant teach us how to merit Divine mercy Lapid, Bennet, and co or the Gedolei HaDor Shlita.
Koldmamadaka, same disclaimer as to Sam; too little time to give the full answer you deserve, but briefly:
The requirements for army service has two pitfalls. 1) It takes away the prime years a bochur needs to develop as a ben Torah. 2) The Israeli military is run by people who believe in kochi v’otzem yodi, and soldiers are put in very compromising situations regarding giluy arayos (this is more what I had in mind by spiritual danger).
I haven’t directly addressed the fact that klal Yisroel needs the zchus of limud haTorah, especially in such a matzav where we’re surrounded by enemies, because, as Ben Levi put it, if you don’t agree, then we “have reached an ideological impasse”.
Financial support isn’t what this is about, though. This atzeres would never have been called had the choice to stay in the beis medrash rather than serve not been labelled criminal.
Gavra, I believe that feeling hakaras hatov is pretty much universal in theory. The issue is how to express it, and whether doing so, publicly, clouds the hashkafic differences.
It’s also much easier (from that perspective, not just yours) from here in chu”l.
Hi guys! (I assume?)
Sam2, you said:
“…it seems that many, many people don’t really believe that the Torah protects them…”
As erroneous as this is, you are correct. The question for us so-called “frum” Yidden is: What is the best way to get more people to believe that Torah *does* protect them? I would humbly submit that greater involvement in general society, not withdrawal from it, is (at least part of) the key. We can’t be a light to the nations, or to our own people, if the light of Torah is all shut up in a few places.
“About Frumkeit in the army. Yes, there are major problems. I have long since felt, though, that the more Frum people that join the more Frum the army will become…”
153% right on the money! Correct, correct, correct! It’s easy to sit way up in the cheap seats & criticize what’s going on on the field. It’s a far greater challenge (that ‘nothing ventured, nothing gained’ thing), and one will have a far greater effect, if one actually comes down & gets in the game.
Ben Levi, you said:
“Is “Shivyon B’Netel’ about chareidim sharing combat risks?”
No, of course it isn’t; you are corect.
“Those that don’t volunteer serve in positions that are largley out of the line of fire and hardship…”
Correct but…
The tanks/jets/submarines/etc. need to be maintained & fixed. Somebody has to work all the computers, staff the armories & depots, etc. The importance of support personnel must/can/should not be dismissed or sneezed at. Shivyon B’Netel is also about people taking an equal share of these hardships & jobs.
We may indeed be at an ideological impasse and may have to file this under “Agree-to-disagree (but amicably so).”
“We believe that the Yeshivos, and the Kollelim that is unparelled in the entire world and is largley chareidi, is what provide’s the zchusim for the combat missions to be successful.”
Try to imagine how awfully hollow this sounds to people sitting shiva for a 19-year-old who was killed in a clash with terrorists even as his 17-year-old sibling gets ready to be inducted. Don’t we believe that it is not enough to be clear in the eyes of Hashem (as it were) but in the eyes of Am Yisrael as well?
Gavra’, you posted:
“I have always argued and continue to argue that Shivyon B’netel is solely about money, and the rest of Israel not wanting to support permanent kollel. I truly believe that if the offer was made to stop all support and not be drafted, it would be accepted by the government.”
You are 154% correct. People would like to learn in kollel full-time? Go right ahead. Just please do not expect me to pay for it (see my first post above). I’ve only lived here for 27+ years but I think most non-charedi Israelis could live with this.
I came to Israel when I was 23 and eventually did 4 months compulsory service (“Shlav Bet” as it was called; I think it has been done away with.): A 3-week basic training & then the 13-week combat medic course. I did my annual stints of reserve duty (“miluim”) on the Lebanese border, in the south Lebanon security zone, on the Egyptian border, just outside Yerushalayim (15 paces outside the eruv) and in the Jordan valley (lots). I was at a tiny little post once where I stopped eating cooked food (other than the fleshig lunch that was delivered daily) because I was the only frum soldier there & realized that the kashrut of the tiny kitchen was very suspect. What a kiddush Hashem it would be if there was a mashigiach kashrut at every base & post who could also be responsible for the shul (lain, give shiurim, etc.)? There could be charedi hesder yeshivot, charedi mechinot, etc. The Air Force has a very successful program for charedi computer personnel. One year I was seconded (as the Brits say) to the Nahal Charedi unit down in the Jordan Valley back when the unit was still brand new (I was with the second group to be inducted). At the base where we were (north of Jericho), there were no women, the kitchen was mehadrin/glatt & there were no exercises during the time allotted for shaharit (in the shul). This could be done many times over. More frameworks could be created. “If you build it, they will come.” (I love that movie.)
With goodwill on all sides, this issue is not insoluble.
On the topic of IDF leaders “believing” in kochi ve-otsem yadi — I doubt that the commenter who made this accusation ever met an IDF leader. I have, and I encountered nothing but respect for the limits of force and doubts about its efficacy. If the commenter got his information from the media, he needs to find more balanced media. There, too, Israeli generals are anything but warmongers. Most personally carry the scars of combat injuries, putting a different spin on the expression ?????? ?? ????.
Ben Levi:
“We believe that the Yeshivos, and the Kollelim that is unparelled in the entire world and is largley chareidi, is what provide’s the zchusim for the combat missions to be successful.
Without them the military would lose, just as the odds in virtuallye very single all out war have said they should lose.”
The amount of Charedim that will be drafted will decrease the amount of people learning by a little bit. It will still be unparalleled in the entire world. How can you know that this will cause the military to lose? The countries that are Israel’s enemies have few if any people learning. So Israel would still completely surpass them in terms of zechuyos. And about the odds – I think we can all agree that with the state (not State) of Israel’s military today the odds are not all that bad and in fact are probably in Israel’s favor. So again how can you know that drafting Charedim will cause Israel to lose in battle?
Disclaimer: I am not expressing an opinion on the draft; I am merely attacking the specific points quoted.
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