March 18, 2012 2:19 am at 2:19 am #602536
There are numerous yeshivish, chassidish young folk around these days that are modern orthadox wanna bes. They try to imitate that way of life however it comes across nerdy, since they did not grow up this way and also because the ones that do it are the uneducated ones. At the end of the day they have lost two worlds. What’s your opinion in this? Is there anyway of bringing this to their attention during their chinuch? As a result of turning toward the less spiritual road and being highly uneducated enough to persue something decent they turn toward the low class, and they have nothing. They are also not accepted in either sect.March 18, 2012 3:34 am at 3:34 am #8611892scentsParticipant
I think that it is not right to comment on any individual, since no one knows what transpired in their life.
However I do live in a neighborhood which has a few couples, Some that I actually grew up with.
Some do it out of ignorance, I pitty them.
Others do it to rebel, I pitty them as well.
The way I see it, is that they are throwing away a life of innocents, tranquility and happiness, to a life of of emptiness. A life that is built on trust to a holywood lifestyle which lacks it.March 18, 2012 4:26 am at 4:26 am #861190soliekMember
who would want to be MO…?March 18, 2012 4:32 am at 4:32 am #861191
It also stems partially from not keeping to chinch lnaar al pidarko. Every gen has more and more of these misplaced people, I think it’s about time instead of sitting back and feeling sorry for them, which of course I already do, we have to take a step back and find the cause behind this all.March 18, 2012 4:49 am at 4:49 am #861192MorahRachMember
Saying that MO people/couples/families lead empty lives and that you can’t be fulfilled if you are not chassidish or yeshivish is VERY ignorant and incorrect. It’s also mean considering how many MO read ywn.March 18, 2012 5:08 am at 5:08 am #861193
Real modern orthodox have careers and spiritualality combined because they were brought up this way yeshivish might have a career might not but they are very spiritual. An mo, wanna be doesn’t have either of them… They are empty and don’t belong anywhere.March 18, 2012 6:51 am at 6:51 am #861194
Thats extremely judgemental, maybe some people feel rejected by the yehsivish community but still value judaism and want to stay religious. Did you know chassidish people that become yeshivish are considered off the derech by many in their community. Everyone thinks staying in their community is the best but everyone needs to find what works for them, as a religious jews serving hashem, and do it
Dont be so quick to judge thats a very insensitive statement!March 18, 2012 7:19 am at 7:19 am #861195Loyal JewParticipant
We had a few of these in RBS when the neighborhood was still coming together. We let those families know in the firmest way that they had to straighten things out quickly and permanently. It ended well.March 18, 2012 8:17 am at 8:17 am #861196
Ok they were never accepted by the community, but by becoming different is not going to change anything inside, they will never be accepted anywhere that way. They will be odd in both places. Itsnot insensitive because I care about them. Instead of pushing the subject under the carpet I am bringing it to the surface. How can we solve this crisis???
I think people should choose communities where there children will flourish and not be not accepted. Every person can be accepted if they choose the right place for themselves. This often occurs with BTs they stick with the ultra yeshivish community only to find years later that their kids never felt a sense of belonging and therefore turn into misfits. BTs should have a community on thier own so that thier children can feel a sense of belonging. I think this should be encouraged in different Kiruv organizations around the world they should teach them the cultural frum mentality. Often these pple are extremely idealistic and then they end up getting burnt. Us ffbs can’t help it these people are different. Then once thier children grow and create thier own homes they can then opt to join a main stream ffb community.
Don’t shoot me. It’s reality. You can puff up all this stuff about aha as yisroel etc… But at the end of the day that’s where the truth lyes…March 18, 2012 11:07 am at 11:07 am #861198lesschumrasParticipant
Loyal Jew, what did youdo, spit on them?March 18, 2012 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #861199zahavasdadParticipant
As long as you said the Brocha Shlo Asni Dati Leumi you are fineMarch 18, 2012 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #861200
I consider myself slightly to the right of MO. I guess more MO machmir. I hate labels. I think that many people on this forum have a very skewed idea of what MO means. A person is either a shomer mitzvos or not. Some of us are mroe makpid in certain mitzvos, and some of us (even the vey Yeshivish) are not as makpid in other mitzvos.
I see the division in this way – the so-called MO seem to be thought of as less frum in mitzvos bein adam laMakom, while the chareidi are perceived as deficient in mitzvos bein adam l’chaveiro (please note – I am saying it is a PERCEPTION, not that chareidi or otherwise very frum yidden are not makpid to be good to other Jews). The MO are accused of being less tzniusdig ( I don’t know, my friends and I try very hard to always dress b’tznius and act properly), and the right-wing are often the ones that are caught in government financial fraud of some type. These things DO happen on both sides and across the spectrum.
IMHO, it is time for Jews to STOP being so quickly and harshly judgmental and labeling everyone else in what ultimately is a negative way. BE concerned with how YOU act and what YOU do, and help be mechazeik other Jews whom you perceive as lacking in their avoda, by acting in such a way as to encourage them to want to emulate those qualities that are so important. Also recognize that not everything you do is asked of us by Hashem, and that all Yidden who do what Hashem’s Ratzon is, are frum,e ven when they fulfill that Ratzon with fewer chumros and minhagim than your own.March 18, 2012 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #861201zahavasdadParticipant
Ramat Beit Shemesh. Its a city in IsraelMarch 18, 2012 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #861202simcha613Participant
For the record- people who bash MO don’t really understand it. The MO’s that aren’t shomrei halachah, aren’t really MO- they just claim to be. The difference between MO and Yeshvish is how much involvement in the secular world is ideal. Please don’t take the people who aren’t tzniyus, who don’t follow halacha and don’t learn Torah as Representative of MO.
Chazal say that HKBH took BY out of Egypt through the Yam Suf on 12 different paths. Chazal also say that the walls separating them were see through. One has to be able to understand that there are multiple paths to G-d, and we must be able to see each other and accept each other.March 18, 2012 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #861203yichusdikParticipant
Those of you who feel a compulsion to bash M.O. communities or practice, does your self righteousness feed hungry children? does it keep the lights on in yeshivos? does it protect your children studying in Israel? Does it help YOUR yiras shomayim vyiras cheit to perceive others as less than you? Does it serve some deep emotional need to put down someone else to make you feel good? Because that is how it looks and sounds. The amount of money going to Chareidi institutions from people who are M.O. and not frum at all is astronomical. If you aren’t prepared to look at them as a Yissachar – Zevulun partner, stop taking their money and their support! Put your own children’s lives on the line to protect your communities!
Having a “holier than thou” attitude doesn’t actually make you holier.
Does your Daas Torah really tell you that you have to denigrate someone who has a shitah that is different or less machmir? If it does, I hate to break it to you, but that’s not Daas Torah.March 18, 2012 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #861204postalMember
So anyone can start a new path and its legit?March 18, 2012 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #861205
More_2, it is like saying the Nevi’im should not have rebuked the Jews about the avodah zarah in times of Bais Rishon. The people should fix their middos before the Day of Final Reckoning arrives.March 18, 2012 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #861206yid.periodMember
I wouldn’t call R’ S. Rephael Hirsch just “anyone”
IM(H)O, the main difference which causes the biggest stink is that in the 19th century people started labeling it. Before then, almost everyone except a few yechidim worked to support their families, and knowing science and history was considered the same as Torah, because it’s maaseh Hashem. To be able to give psak on complicated shailas, one must know anatomy and science etc. To give an educated decision, guidance and hadracha, one must know the history involved and be able to learn from similar situations in the past. (Everyone knows the story about the Netziv, where his parents were going to take him out of cheder and have him apprentice b/c apparently he wasn’t proving to be one of those yechidim – otherwise people were in cheder until about 10 years old- [this is where history becomes important])
People who are real MO (ie. actually orthodox and shomrei halacha to the fullest extent they know how/ are capable of) recognize this. Also as someone mentioned above it’s all about the emphasis. “Yeshivish” emphasize one’s personal relationship with Hashem, ie through maximizing Torah study, while MO may exert their efforts in other areas of avodas Hashem (although grounded in a solid foundation of past and continuing talmud Torah) such as chessed, making a kiddush Hashem, tikkun olam, and being able to support Torah institutions and other Jewish initiatives around the world.March 18, 2012 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #861207
more_2- The difference is that you see this as a “crisis” thats being pushed under the rug. I dont believe it to be a crisis at all merely some self-expression. These people’s kids will not end up “messed up” because they dont know how to fit in modern orthodox communities. People shouldnt live only surrounded by their own sect of judaism its important that we learn to tolerate and even (gasp) appreciate other sects of our religion. It seems to me that your from the yeshivish community and harbor some anger against people that arent as “yeshivish” as you but of course i could be wrong about that….March 18, 2012 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #861208farrocksMember
y.p: You’re mixing up R. SRH with MO. Two seperate, unrelated, hashkofos. One is TIDE the other TuM.March 18, 2012 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #861209
Yid.period, learning in the cheder till 10 might have happened (usually, for longer), but nobody held it was good — there was often no choice.
Knowing science etc. is necessary to a degree. It is not equal to the Torah itself though. The Torah was given only to Klal Yisroel. We were commanded to learn it. Science — any Goy could learn it, if he wants.March 18, 2012 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #861210yid.periodMember
MDD – I agree nobody should have a seder of literature the way one would have a seder of Torah, but all I am saying is that to a large degree we are supposed to know both (science, history [not literature persay]) and there is much to be gained, albeit slightly different things from their study (assuming one is learning it within the proper contexts and having the proper kavanos in mind). And “no choice” is rather subjective. There are those who would argue that many people struggling to make ends meet in the modern era also should be b’geder “no choice” and aren’t living responsibly the way they do, which leads one to follow a more “MO” path. Hashkafically they recognize it as a matter of necessity.
Farrocks – while YU has the tagline “Torah U’madda” I would definitely NOT say that RSRH “Torah im derech eretz” is unrelated. In fact, I would say that it was the precursor to the TuM of YU now. And RSRH was seen by many, many in his day as the opinion heading away from the correct path similar to the way many nowadays view the Rav and the “Torah Umadda” ways of YU. (On a personal note, I guess according to many on this site I would be considered MO but I happen to appreciate RSRH’s approach much more than the message TuM sends, as I think the definition/underlying hashkafic implications of TuM are very ambiguous and up to everyone’s own interpretation- in a negative way)March 18, 2012 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #861211farrocksMember
y.p: Read Rav Schwab’s sefer. He was the successor Rov of Rav SRH’s KAJ kehila. He tears TuM and YU apart, saying they are the polar opposite and antithesis of Rav Hirsch. And he bemoaned their dragging Rav Hirsch’s name to justify their positions.March 18, 2012 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #861212
Yid.period, in those days, “no choice” was peshuto ke’mashmo’o -otherwise they would be starving.March 18, 2012 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #861213moreMember
These people’s kids will not end up “messed up” because they dont know how to fit in modern orthodox communities.
nO YOU DIDNN’T GET MY POINT, i was saying these pple that make the groisse jump from being irreligious to a chasssid/altra yeshivish thier kids don;t fit in, as a result they go searching, and they don’t belong in either sect. some of which become MO wanna be’s, but they lack the education and that particular upbringing that the rest of the MO’s posess as a result they are not accepted in either sect. If you read my second post there’s a solution to this crisis.March 19, 2012 12:22 am at 12:22 am #861214lesschumrasParticipant
The last major new path prior to MO was started by the Baal Shem Tov two centuries ago. The misnagdim, especially the VilnaGaon denied the validity of Chassidus.March 19, 2012 4:32 am at 4:32 am #861215
@more- and if ud read my post understand i disagree that a crisis exists. You seem to be under the notion that the majority of baalei tshuva dont fit in, i simply dont agree with that statement. I dont think im ignoring a crisis but based on what ive seen from the many balei tshuva i know, they dont seem to have a major problem fitting in. Im sure some do have some issues adjusting but i wouldnt deem that a crisis but rather an individual difference.
Maybe youve seen one or two baalei tshuvas kids go off and become the nebach type of person you have described, other then that im not sure what your basing your statement onMarch 19, 2012 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #861216mikehall12382MemberMarch 19, 2012 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #861217nfgo3Member
I would rather be MO than CURLEY or LARRY.March 19, 2012 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #861218
I posted this twice, as it bears repetition. I would also add, that a Jew who does not wear a kippah at all (if male) OR bensch licht and go to mikveh (if married) and female, or keep Shabbos and kosher, is STILL a Jew. The non-Jews don’t care if those Jews are affililated or disenfranchised. All they see is _____ Jew!March 19, 2012 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #861219No One Mourns The WickedMember
mikehall12382: +1, well said!March 19, 2012 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #861220
@mikehall – some say so, however, be aware the Reform say exactly the same when confronted about the non-Jews in their midst.March 19, 2012 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #861221OneOfManyParticipant
Lol. Nice. 🙂March 19, 2012 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #861222MiddlePathParticipant
mikehall, oomis, you’ve got it right. It’s too bad so many Jews don’t look at it that way. What connects us is far stronger than what separates us.March 19, 2012 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #861223computer777Participant
Oomis: I never understood that argument. We don’t determine a Jew according to what the goyim think.
And in fact, goyim who had a Jewish father or other Jewish ancestor were also considered Jewish by the Nazis and persecuted and killed just like the Jews were.
And it certainly doesn’t apply here. Is it ok for a ffb to want to be not religious and we say, oh, no problem, at least you remain a Jew since the goyim will still consider you a Jew.
Now your message itself, that we shouldn’t look down at others who are (in our minds) “less observant” is well taken.March 19, 2012 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #861224MiddlePathParticipant
computer777, actually, I think it DOES apply here. Obviously, we must do our best to try to have a positive influence on other religious Jews to make them want to stay religious, but if someone DOES become non-religious, we still should consider them Jews, and never treat them as second class.March 19, 2012 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #861225ToiParticipant
yid.period- R Schwab disagrees vehemently with your statement above, no matter how you view TIDE.March 19, 2012 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #861226
And it certainly doesn’t apply here. Is it ok for a ffb to want to be not religious and we say, oh, no problem, at least you remain a Jew since the goyim will still consider you a Jew.”
Of course it’s not – but my point is that no matter how much we want ALL Jews to be Torah-observant, we cannot eve abandon any Jew for not being religious, and the world will not care one way or the other if he is Shomer Torah u’mitzvos. They will just see the horns.March 20, 2012 3:28 am at 3:28 am #861227147Participant
You are close to taking a time out. -95March 20, 2012 3:56 am at 3:56 am #861228Medium Size ShadchanMember
I am shocked by this thread.
With whats been in the news lately, Chassidish people leaving it ALL behind- No Shabbos, No Kashrus, NOTHING, totally choosing to assimilate, calling anyone frum backward cult-members and worse, with the support of world famous Jewish organizations, using donations from people who dont realize what kind of organizations their money is going to, where they help “frei” out Chassidim….
I dont hear any outcry about these enabling organizations.
And here we’re judging and analyzing and saddened by those who have chosen to be MO, and def keep Shabbos and Kosher?
OMG.March 20, 2012 4:58 am at 4:58 am #861229
MSS- couldnt have said it any better myslefMarch 20, 2012 11:15 am at 11:15 am #861230Medium Size ShadchanMember
I firmly believe this thread was meant to be a post Purim satire, like the single socks one, to make us gag with laughter, after the recent news stories.
Im still waiting for anyone with a sense of right and wrong to stand up to the many world famous “Jewish” organizations, currently “helping” OTD individuals who bash frum Jews. Rather strange.
AYEKA??????March 20, 2012 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #861231computer777Participant
Middlepath:”computer777, actually, I think it DOES apply here. Obviously, we must do our best to try to have a positive influence on other religious Jews to make them want to stay religious, but if someone DOES become non-religious, we still should consider them Jews, and never treat them as second class. “
I agree with what you said, but I fail to see how that has to do with the goyim considering them Jewish enough to hate and persecute them. They are Jews and we must treat them like Jews because they have a yiddish neshama which cannot be changed, not because the goyim consider them Jews.
Oomis: what the world cares is not our concern. If the world would decide that being unobservant makes them not Jewish, would that give us license to treat them as not Jewish?
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