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  • #1145935

    Joseph
    Participant

    The fact that those are the people attending MO schools also says something, even if they are not the run-of-the-mill MOs.

    What does it say?

    #1145936

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It does perhaps say that, but it also perhaps says that the parents and administration of that school are less concerned about the inevitable (or possible, if you prefer) negative influence they will have on the other children.

    #1145937

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It does perhaps say that, but it also perhaps says that the parents and administration of that school are less concerned about the inevitable (or possible, if you prefer) negative influence they will have on the other children.

    It also says the adminstration is not willing to write off their fellow jews unlike the Charedi schools who will refuse to let them in. They are willing to take the risk that they might be a bad influence in the hope (and they are more successful than you think) that a good influence will occur on them

    #1145938

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    It does perhaps say that, but it also perhaps says that the parents and administration of that school are less concerned about the inevitable (or possible, if you prefer) negative influence they will have on the other children.

    It’s a balance. The flip side is yeshivos who kick out kids all the time–essentially guaranteeing they will go off the derech–on the safeik that they might negatively influence someone.

    It’s very selfish attitude. You might ask what tenets of chareidi’ism provide that you are supposed to value any amount of risk to your own over any amount of damage to another. I’m not aware of any teaching in the Torah like that, so it must come from outside influences.

    #1145939

    Hashemisreading
    Participant

    I have 2 co workers that are modern orthodox (their a couple) and ive observed that there are many differences than orthodoxy. they send their kids to co-ed schools, are extremely not particular about kashrus, the women wear pants and do not cover their hair. they do not follow the halachos of tznius at all. however I do want to say that they are extremely good people and have a major love for yiddishkeit, possibly even more that many ultra frum prople.

    #1145940

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It’s a balance.

    Yes

    The flip side is yeshivos who kick out kids all the time–essentially guaranteeing they will go off the derech–on the safeik that they might negatively influence someone.

    I am not aware of any yeshivos which routinely kick kids out “all the time”. In the rare cases where kids are kicked out, the negative influence is usually karov l’vaday. Perhaps you are, and then they’re wrong. There is a huge difference, though, between expelling a kid and having a strict acceptance policy. A school is allowed to create an identity for itself. There is also a big difference between situations where there are other options or where there aren’t.

    It’s very selfish attitude. You might ask what tenets of chareidi’ism provide that you are supposed to value any amount of risk to your own over any amount of damage to another. I’m not aware of any teaching in the Torah like that, so it must come from outside influences.

    Chayecha kodmin. (Please take that in the context if what I wrote above.)

    #1145941

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m also curious to know if these non frum families are paying tuition or not.

    #1145942

    square root of 2
    Participant

    BarryLs1, you said that we should drop the labeling altogether, but in truth modern orthodoxy isn’t a “label” like “yeshivish” or “balabatish”. Modern orthodoxy was a movement, an intentional act to change something, and modern orthodoxy would label themselves as such as well. It’s like saying we shouldn’t label people who go to different yeshivos by saying, “He attends___” and “he goes to _____”, rather everyone goes to one yeshiva.

    #1145943

    Chortkov
    Participant

    This is an age-old dilemma. Kicking children out of yeshivas is different to not allowing them in in the first place. I am absolutely, incontrovertibly NOT saying that anybody who comes from a Baal Teshuva house should not be allowed into frum schools. What I am saying is that a careful judgement must be made of who to accept into the schools, and if needs be, open another way. Why should one family’s careful chinuch be thrown down the drain by one friend who wasn’t privileged with the same? (I have personally seen heimishe boys being dragged down terribly by people who should never have been in the school in the first place) It isn’t about the history of the parents, it is about the standards of the family. If the family keep the school’s standards, then they should be allowed in. If they don’t, it doesn’t matter what other good things they do and how far they have come; their kids don’t belong in the mosdos.

    Obviously, this is subject that needs Daas Torah to decide. There are conflicting sources for this in the Torah. (eg Dinah marrying Eisav; R’ Yossi ben Kisma; Yackov travelling with Eisav…), and it isn’t for any of us to decide. But I can tell you many stories from personal experience how one child brought down so many others, when he should have simply been refused entry and put into another school which was more suitable.

    #1145944

    square root of 2
    Participant

    Thanks, DaMoshe for highlighting the fact that modern orthodox learn a lot. I mentioned before I know someone who goes to a modern orthodox yeshiva. The bais medrash there (and in most modern orthodox yeshivos) is set up with a shelf in front of each seat, which is literally full of seforim. He personally has his own reference shas and rambam, plus a lot of rishonim and acharonim on what he’s learning, plus classical mussar seforim–nefesh chayim, sifrei maharal, and others. I thought at first that they don’t learn bi’iyun but he tells me over the shiur sometimes and it’s a regular lomdishe shiur. And he and many over there are big masmidim.

    #1145945

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Please define are extremely not particular about kashrus

    Does that mean for example that they will eat Haagan Daze Ice cream and not Mehadrin? Having an O-U and eating it does not make you lax on Kashruth

    #1145946

    sk1
    Member

    don’t you guys realize that “modern “and “orthodox” are contradicting words ?!?!?!?!!?

    #1145947

    HaKatan
    Participant

    To address the easy part of the OP’s question: No, going to college and working is not at all what makes someone MO; it is perfectly normal for Traditional Orthodox men and women to go to college (typically a Jewish program or online) and then work in the workforce.

    As to the rest of the OP: Even some MO admit, like one of their “feminists”, that NOT everything they do is in accordance with halacha.

    Joseph’s post, in the other thread linked at the beginning of this thread, is well worth reading.

    This is far more insidious than many people likely realize. If there were no such theology as MO and a “non-ideological” girl were, for example, to wear a shirt which does not conform to the absolute and indisputable requirements of tznius, then, if not for MO theology, at least she could understand that she is doing something wrong and then hopefully choose to do the right thing. Same for married women keeping their hair uncovered, et al.

    But to give her an institutional/theological justification for doing so, that “MO does this” so therefore it’s okay and just as frum as anyone who does conform to tznius requirements, is unprecedented, and can prevent her ch”V from correcting her behavior, because “MO does it”.

    This can then continue on in their families for generations and is also obviously a disaster from a chinuch perspective, Hashem Yishmor.

    MO is the first known movement in Jewish history to both claim orthodoxy and at the same time to permit that which is impermissible.

    There is also the very real problem of incorporating the heresy and idolatry of Zionism into their faith, which is also alluded to in that post.

    #1145948

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I’m also curious to know if these non frum families are paying tuition or not.

    for the most part yes they are paying tution, there are a few schools who cater to BT and are willing to forgo tution for at least a year for a kid who is in Public School

    #1145949

    Sam2
    Participant

    Hashemisreading: The number of self-identifying Modern Orthodox who wear pants (women) and actually keep all other Halacha is very low. It exists, and it’s a weird phenomenon (seriously, I once met a woman who won’t eat at my house because she only keeps Yoshon but wears pants), but just because they care about Yiddishkeit doesn’t mean it’s fair to qualify them as Orthodox. It’s a good thing that they’re still connected and mostly observant, even if not 100% observant, but it’s not fair to put them in the same group as those who are 100% observant.

    #1145950

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Pretty good investment – one year free tuition for another 8-10 of, what, 15k per year? tuition.

    #1145951

    Hashemisreading
    Participant

    you know, this is actually a funny conversation because there is no rule book called laws for the modern orthodox. so everyone does what they want! they pick and choose which halachos! so I shouldn’t have said that their not particular about kashrus because each person with in the world of modern orthodox does their own thing. so we cant generalize.

    #1145952

    Hashemisreading
    Participant

    zehavasdad: what I meant about the kashrus is that I know that a lot of them will eat in the home of non jews. this is clearly not an issue of Haagen dasz!

    #1145953

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Chayecha kodmin l’chayei chaveircha

    FTFY

    That means your life comes before someone else’s life. It doesn’t mean that your kid listening to rolling stones comes before someone else going OTD.

    I am not aware of any yeshivos which routinely kick kids out “all the time”. In the rare cases where kids are kicked out, the negative influence is usually karov l’vaday. Perhaps you are, and then they’re wrong.

    Sure, karov l’vaday. Of what? That the kids in the class will all go OTD? Unlikely. That some of the other kids might also listen to goyish music? Big deal. You’re killing kids over that.

    #1145954

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Funny I dont know any MO jews who will eat in the homes of Non-jews unless the person has plastic plates and orders food from a kosher place.

    There is no Pick and Choose on Kashruth for MO , Either its Kosher or its not, It is true that not everyone keeps everything, but they really arent MO people

    #1145955

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Popa, you’re doing precisely what I asked you not to – taking my comment out of the context I put it into.

    #1145956

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, and ZD, you’re using the No True Scotsman argument. I’m glad that you both define Orthodoxy by strict adherence to halacha. Unfortunately, many, many don’t.

    #1145957

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Popa, you’re doing precisely what I asked you not to – taking my comment out of the context I put it into.

    I am not.

    #1145958

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    People who dont keep Halacha, but call themselves MO’s are not true MO’s. However other Mo’s are not willing to dismiss them because the alternative is worse. The general feeling is better to have a person who keeps 70% of Halacha, than a person who keeps 0% of Halacha

    #1145959

    Hashemisreading
    Participant

    thank you Daas yochid I agree. and Zahavasdad- well I do know MO’s that eat in non jews home- I hear about it right here in my office. they eat the food the non jews bring in as well. so I guess its yaish viyaish!

    #1145960

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: All of Orthodoxy is a No True Scotsman. Self-identification doesn’t make you something. It’s not a No True Scotsman argument to say that no white person can be black, as much as they want to identify as black. So they can call themselves Modern Orthodox all they want. That doesn’t make them Orthodox. And that doesn’t mean that others can smear those who actually are Orthodox just because some who call themselves “MO” aren’t actually. Just like there are those who call themselves “Chareidim” who aren’t actually Halacha-observant. That doesn’t mean that all Chareidim are. That doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t be an Issur Chamur to classify all “Chareidim” as “not-Frum” or “lax in Halacha” or whatever people want to say. Why is it any different with “MO”?

    #1145961

    OURtorah
    Participant

    yekke- thank you for your post! i truly admire your point of view, and the clarity that you see in your yiddishkeit. I appreciate your post. If you are interested, please continue reading my response to the other poster, as it pertains to some of the things you touched upon.

    neutriquam- thank you as well. I understand your position, however my point wasn’t to say that you should accept what they do as truth. Maybe what they are doing isn’t right or isnt what your rabbi told you, or how you were raised. It is literally about simply accepting them. If we all accepted the fact that every person serves hashem in their own way, which doesnt mean bend my standards, it means I will stil be me, but I will choose to love that person simply because they r a jew. I will show my children that we could still be sthe way we are, and its beauitufl, but I am going to expose my children to other types of people, to make my children less judgemental and more loving of others. And when they ask “Why don’t we do what they do?”, you are there to answer their questions. Children get healthy and emesdik answers this way. Versus being sheltered and not knowing, then finding out from other sources and sometimes going off your derech. I am not saying that you should bend yourself to accomodate others. On the contrary, embrace the for who they are despite being so different from you, and love them because Hashem created them as a fellow Jew.

    I am going to end with a story. I worked with a family who had a sick child and they arent religious. I went into their home every week in my tznious clothes, bringing them kosher food to the hospital and never imposing myself on them. Not once did I think “Hey, these people are so wrong. They go out to non-kosher restuarant, they dont keep shabbos etc. On the contrary, I came, loved and embraced them for who they were and over time started having an impact on them without even imposing myself. They started asking questions about shabbos, about friday night, about holidays. I sent them to speak to rabbis. They started to keep friday night dinners. I never looked at their short comings. I always focused on what they were doing, cuz exactly like yekke said, their tafkid isnt nessicairly to be frum.

    #1145962

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, I agree with you, it isn’t.

    #1145963

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    DY: Agreed, many don’t. But most posters here are focusing on the MO people who don’t, while ignoring the fact that there are many chareidim who also don’t.

    Why is it that people look at the MO people who don’t follow the rules and claim they represent the “true” MO, but chareidim who don’t follow the rules are deemed the exceptions?

    #1145964

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Popa, sure you are. You’re making it seem as if I didn’t agree with you that there’s a balance, and didn’t say (strongly imply) that it’s important that there be other options and that the kid is not on the street.

    Agav, listening to the Rolling Stones doesn’t usually come in a vacuum, it usually comes along with an entire yeridah.

    #1145965

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why is it that people look at the MO people who don’t follow the rules and claim they represent the “true” MO, but chareidim who don’t follow the rules are deemed the exceptions?

    Probably because

    a) of the numbers (percentages)

    b) being Modern Orthodox is frequently cited as the excuse for laxity in halacha.

    It is not right for any individual to be judged negatively based on these factors, but unfortunately, it happens.

    #1145966

    Joseph
    Participant

    Sam, so we finally agree that there are no chareidi halachic wrongdoers (tax cheats, violent, etc.), correct?

    #1145967

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Joseph makes an excellent point. If you are entitled to write off as not truly Modern Orthodox someone who breaks halachos (and I am glad that you do that and think you are correct for doing so) then I can also write off those who commit violent or otherwise criminal acts as automatically not being chareidi.

    #1145968

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Popa, sure you are. You’re making it seem as if I didn’t agree with you that there’s a balance, and didn’t say (strongly imply) that it’s important that there be other options and that the kid is not on the street.

    No, because we disagree on what the balance is. And we’re not close either. It’s like I’m in shomayim and you’re in gehenim (example of far away places).

    #1145969

    IvduEsHashemBsimcha
    Participant

    Quote from the Shtefanesht Rebbe, R’ Menachem Friedman (son of Ruzhiner Rebbe): “Personally I do not know at all what is the meaning of the word frum also my father did not mention such a word to me. But it appears to me that it is a type of garment whose outward cover is pride, whose lining is anger, and which is sewn with the black of depression.” (The House of Rizhin, by R. Menachem Brayer)

    I believe that instead of judging people by their label (whether it’s imposed on them by someone else or self-chosen), look at their actions and beliefs instead. There is less of a difference in the different people who call themselves chareidi or yeshivish than there is in the words Modern Orthodox, which mean different things to different people. To quote Rav Schwab (when asked a question in which someone who was embezzling money was referred to as a frum yid), “If he is embezzling from the government, he is not a frum Yid!”

    Even if someone claims they don’t keep whatever aspect of halacha because they’re “Modern Orthodox,” that no more implicates other Modern Orthodox people who don’t feel the same way as he than that “frum yid” who was an embezzler represents all shomer torah yidden.

    #1145970

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No, because we disagree on what the balance is. And we’re not close either. It’s like I’m in shomayim and you’re in gehenim (example of far away places).

    Nice random example.

    Also, please explain whether you are referring to acceptance policy or kicking a child out, because I think there’s a world of difference.

    #1145971

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “Why is it that people look at the MO people who don’t follow the rules and claim they represent the “true” MO, but chareidim who don’t follow the rules are deemed the exceptions?”

    Perhaps, and I am just hazarding a guess, because there are those who say “we are not shomer” because we are mordern. (The whole term shomer negia as an option is somewhat bothersome) or we eat “out” because we are modern.

    You can see similar comments made here by certain posters who say they are not “Cheradi”.

    I don’t think you would find someone identifying as charedie saying something is mutter because they are charedie.

    Yes I know the usual culprits will say that “but charedim do this or that” but that is not saying something is mutter to you strictly because you consider yourself chareidi.

    #1145972

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There is less of a difference in the different people who call themselves chareidi or yeshivish than there is in the words Modern Orthodox, which mean different things to different people.

    Please explain what you mean by that. I’m sure you’ll agree that the terms yeshivish and chareidi also mean different things to different people.

    #1145973

    IvduEsHashemBsimcha
    Participant

    Yes, of course yeshivish and chareidi mean different things to different people. But generally speaking, it’s usually about a type of person who dresses a certain way, holds certain shittos, and attends certain types of institution, while there isn’t that universality in “Modern orthodoxy” – YU calls itself that, fully observant people call themselves that, but YCT and Yeshivat Maharat call themselves that too (they use “open orthodox” and “modern orthodox” pretty interchangeably, see both of their websites), as well as do non-fully observant people. So it is a very bad identifier for colloquial usage.

    #1145974

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Joseph, you mentioned no chareidi tax cheats. Yet a prominent chareidi posek got up in a shul in Teaneck a few years ago, and said publicly that there is nothing wrong halachically with cheating on your taxes.

    This is where I think the difference lies between writing someone off vs looking at the group as wrong – if the group’s official stance is that something is ok or not. If chareidi Rabbonim say cheating on taxes is ok, that would make it a chareidi issue. If MO Rabbonim would say married women not covering hair is ok, that would be an issue. If Rabboniim say it’s NOT ok, and people do it anyway, it’s an issue with the person, not the derech.

    #1145975

    Joseph
    Participant

    I am going with Sam’s logical statements above, DM. Ask Sam your question.

    Anyways, if you asked 100 chareidi rabbonim or poskim whether you may cheat on your taxes, you are highly likely to get 100 no’s. I can’t say with absolute certainty all 100 will say that because one or two might think you’re pulling his leg and give a hearty laugh instead.

    #1145976

    Joseph
    Participant

    Regarding the posek you referred to, Dear DaMoshe, that false statement you attributed to him in Teaneck was based on an unproven claim by the anti-Orthodox Jewish Week. The posek vigirously denied what was attributed to him, and MO Rabbi Pruzansky of Teaneck has a post on his site vouching for this chareidi posek’s credibility on this false attribution.

    #1145979

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1145980

    Sam2
    Participant

    Joseph and nisht: There are Chareidi Rabbonim who (mis)read Shulchan Aruch into thinking that you can cheat on taxes. They are few (and getting fewer), but they certainly exist.

    Joseph: If you agree with my logic, then you have to stop claiming that “Modern Orthodox” people violate/don’t care about/ignore certain Halachos. if you agree to that, I will absolutely agree that no real Chareidi violates Halacha either.

    #1145981

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Why is it that people look at the MO people who don’t follow the rules and claim they represent the “true” MO, but chareidim who don’t follow the rules are deemed the exceptions?

    Chareidim who do things wrong don’t do it beshita. If a Chareidi women would wear something which is not tzenua, or be mechallel shabbos, she would not claim to be right, she would understand it is wrong. Nobody sticks their wrongdoings and makes it part of the ideology. In MO, however, many labelled as MO will take their laxness in Halocho and blame it on the MO shitta.

    A Chareidi person who commits fraud will either admit he is wrong, or find some sort of heter, but won’t say “we don’t keep halocho”.

    #1145982

    Chortkov
    Participant

    To all those debating chareidim not keeping halocho:

    Joseph and nisht: There are Chareidi Rabbonim who (mis)read Shulchan Aruch into thinking that you can cheat on taxes. They are few (and getting fewer), but they certainly exist.

    If my poisek tells me that opening bottles on Shabbos is an issur deoirayso, and others learn the sugyas and are mattir, these people are not less ‘chareidi’ in my eyes, even if according to me they are not in accordance with halocho. If a Chareidi rabbi believes something is muttar – even if he is mistaken – he is still Chareidi.

    This is a far cry from breaking halocho because we are ‘with the times’.

    #1145983

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    OurTORAH:

    If what you’e saying is that we should accept people and not judge them, I fullg agree. But what you seem to be saying is that we should accept this is their way of serving Hashem, and not necessarily wrong, then, if some of the above assertions are correct, and I’m not saying they are, then I can’t really agree with that. When you were performing that wonderful example of chessed in the hospital, you accepted them as people and didn’t judge them for their level of observance. But, as a frum yid, I believe that whilst I accept them, the fact is their level of observance is not just different, it is wrong. That’s not to say I judge them for it, of course. For example, if they had a Reform Rabbi they whose judgement they follow, accepting them would not translate to agreeing with that Rabbi, or even accepting that their’s is simply another way of serving Hashem. The mehalech is simply wrong, even if elements are right.

    Now I’m not saying this applies to MO, I’m saying that if some of the above posters are correct, there are aspects of MO that are problematic and not the correct way to serve Hashem. Feel free to say that they are wrong, or that we should accept people nonetheless. But I cannot agree with the answer that this is simply another, acceptable way of serving Hashem despite these supposed shortcomings. Perhaps the shortcomings are less severe than claimed, or nonexistent, in which case of course the movement is fine, and should be accepted. but my perception is this is not the case.

    #1145984

    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    mods, I get why you deleted my second post (in effect proving my point) but what was wrong with the first?

    You actually said it youself.

    #1145985

    555
    Participant

    It seems that some just skim over the posts and then post something based on the main words that caught their eye without really reading.

    Some refer to being lax as “modern”. While others automatically add the word “orthodox” resulting in people being labelled unintentionally as “MO”. Not everybody who calls themself “modern” or uses the word “modern” as an excuse to violate halacha consider themself “MO” or part of the MO community.

    #1145986

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Sam,

    First your comment about a posek saying it is muttar is unsubstantiated. However regardless, that is my the point. They do not say it is muttar BECAUSE THEY ARE CHAREIDIM. Which is the point. It does appear that ther individuals who say (I am not ascribing this to any rabbis) who say that can do things because they are Modern.

    Huge difference.

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