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  • #1146092

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Hakatan – You are an exception because you hold that Zionism is real Avodah Zara. You really should be in all of the MO (and Agudah, and Yeshivish, and many Chassidish) “Temples” decrying their worship of Avodah Zara (i.e. working with and wanting the Israeli state).

    L’shitascha, one is better off being Reform/Conservative (Liberal, and thereby anti-Israel) than being Agudah who takes money from Tzionim and swears to uphold the Tzionishe laws. As we know, one who is Oved Avodah Zara is like he was M’vatel the entire Torah.

    Agree or disagree?

    #1146093

    HaKatan
    Participant

    GAW:

    I am not expressing what I hold, as I don’t have a personal position on a matter that is for gedolei Torah to decide. I merely expressed what is the universal position of the gedolei Torah. The Brisker Rav, who was known for being very careful with what he said, stated explicitly that Zionism is Avoda Zara.

    Interesting, the father of a young boy once came to Rav Chaim Brisker to tell him that his (this father’s) son had given a coin to the shmad-named “Keren Kayemet”, a blatant identity-theft of the “keren kayemes” we say in davening each day.

    They happened to be standing near a church at the time; Rav Chaim pointed to the church and said to the young man that he’d be better off throwing out his money there than giving it to the Zionists. This is, of course, way before 1948.

    As well:

    “Working with” and “wanting” and two completely different things.

    Although Agudah does “work with” the State of Israel, which the gedolim seemed to allow while that is something to which Satmar would object, that does not at all mean that they “want” that State, CH”V.

    And the many yeshivos and yeshivish shuls that say tehillim after the latest attack of the savages (whom the Zionists carelessly rile up after they carelessly invaded and stirred up all this trouble to begin with, as the Chazon Ish pointed out to David BG) on the Jews, are doing so solely for the welfare of the Jews in Eretz Yisrael and having nothing to do with the State of Israel.

    #1146094

    HaKatan
    Participant

    OURTorah:

    I am writing based on actual knowledge, not theoretical book knowledge, of that which I discuss, if that’s your concern.

    And, unfortunately, they are not “literally following the same Torah you do”. For example, MO theology includes Zionism, which is heretical and idolatrous, as an essential religious tenet of their faith. That’s besides the numerous problems with “synthesizing” Torah and secular culture (“foolishness bordering on heresy” according to Rav Schwab).

    #1146095

    HaKatan
    Participant

    ronald9:

    Hurling invective and ad hominem attacks does not make you right. It does, however, show that you don’t have an answer – which, is okay, because there is no answer for MO theology.

    Again, although MO people are our brothers, and Rav Schwab said so explicitly (addressing them as “achim biEidah”) when he begged the MO to rejoin the true Torah world, MO theology is baseless and wrong according to the Torah greats.

    #1146096

    OURtorah
    Participant

    Hakatan- my question was what is your personal connection to MO? What have been your personal interactions with MO people? What actual knowledge are you talking about?

    Fortunatly yes they are following the same Torah. The torah was no only given to Yeshivish people Hakatan. It was given to all Jews. The “true Torah world” is a completly subjective statement. Just because someone is Zionistic doesn’t make them not a Torah Jew. It makes them zionistic lol.

    And please “the Jews, are doing so solely for the welfare of the Jews in Eretz Yisrael and having nothing to do with the State of Israel.”

    If you are in Israel, you are living intrinsically with it. You buy food from there and give to the economy, you are being protected by Israels army. If you get funding, you are taking state money. They are quite intrinsically related.

    “(whom the Zionists carelessly rile up after they carelessly invaded and stirred up all this trouble to begin with”

    The way you talk about zionism puts zionism before the Jew. You are throwing your brothers and sisters under the bus. You sound no better than neturai karta. Frankly I respect the fact that you have a strong stance for whatever you respect, but if someone non jewish heard you say that they would think you have zero love for “the zionists”. And because I am trying not to be judgemental of you, I understand you were taught a certain way, I understand you genuinly feel this way about zionism. I get it. But you for some reason aren’t getting me.

    #1146097

    MDG
    Participant

    “MO theology includes Zionism, which is heretical and idolatrous, as an essential religious tenet of their faith.”

    Please quote a significant MO Rav, like RYBS, who says that Zionism is “an essential religious tenet”. Commoners (or even common rabbis) do not create tenets.

    #1146098

    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    charliehall:

    “He equates rabbi lichtenstiens gadlus bitorah with gadlus in literture. To the charedi community this korov liapakarsus.

    That is because the charedi community loses out in that they can’t understand the brilliance of the Torah of Rav Lichtenstein z’tz’l because they are unfamiliar with the literature he references.

    That doesn’t address the argument.

    #1146099

    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    PBA

    I’m glad we found an example where studying latin for tens of thousands of hours can lead to figuring out one minor detail in a gemara.

    I would like to posit that studying additional Torah for tens of thousands of hours would probably also lead to figuring out at least one minor detail.

    It sounds like in your first sentence you’re talking about studying tens of thousand of hours as opposed to doing something else, then in your 2nd sentence you suggest learning tens of thousand of hours. In which case, your first sentence is completely wrong. Of course it’s worth to spend “tens of thousand of hours” in order to understand one minor detail if you anyway won’t be learning.

    #1146100

    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    wow, over 200 posts in 7 days! Is that a record?

    #1146101

    Francorachel3
    Participant

    @zahavas dad

    When you say the MO may “eat dairy or fish outside the home,”—while I understand what I think you meant to say, I’d imagine others didn’t. Please clarify that you meant they might eat dairy or fish IN A NON KOSHER RESTAURANT!

    #1146103

    Francorachel3
    Participant

    @sam2

    I’m always surprised when someone speaks for others, yet is completely misinformed on the topic at hand. I happen to know many MO who do indeed go mixed swimming, and go to public beaches as well…

    #1146104

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    HaKatan – Would you then argue that Agudah would take money from the Vatican, or from a Shinto shrine?

    Do you (or those who you base yourself on) hold that the Kenesset is a “Makom Avoda Zara” and should not be entered?

    If someone who is Modern Orthodox touched your non-mevushal wine, would you spill it out?

    These are direct questions, I would like yes or no answers.

    If you are in Israel, you are living intrinsically with it. You buy food from there and give to the economy, you are being protected by Israels army.

    HaKatan believes that the only reason he would need protection is because the Tzionim rule. If we would only surrender Eretz Yisroel to a group like ISIS, then we would all be protected. Or at least we would have, before the Tzionim engaged is HisGarus B’umos.

    #1146105

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    SDS: I don’t follow your question. Anytime you do anything it is instead of something else.

    #1146106

    HaKatan
    Participant

    MDG:

    Seriously? Are you really even questioning that the MO faith requires Zionism and how important it is to them?

    RYBS himself was the head of Mizrachi, “Religious Zionism” and was upset (as per his writings) when, at some point, some doubted his allegiance to their views.

    Regarding RHS’s view on Nationalism and pikuach nefesh, please see this post:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/at-what-point-are-you-officially-one-side-or-the-other/page/2#post-490613

    (As well:

    The fanatic obsession in MO institutions with Zionism, Zionist holidays like Yom HaAtzamos, et al. and much more, also makes it quite clear that Zionism is a very big part of the MO faith.

    Do you not know what goes on in MO schools?)

    I hope that satisfies your question.

    #1146107

    Sam2
    Participant

    And the award for ironic post of the year goes to…

    Hakatan!

    Hurling invective and ad hominem attacks does not make you right. It does, however, show that you don’t have an answer

    #1146108

    Sam2
    Participant

    Franco: You clearly didn’t real all of my posts, not that it matters. There might be people who are more or less “MO” that do Issurim. That is no less an indictment on “MO” than Chareidim who do Issurim are an indictment on Chareidim.

    #1146109

    ronald9
    Participant

    “MO theology is baseless and wrong according to the Torah greats”

    OK Hakatan (btw great username)….since you continue to demonstrate to us what an ignoramus is, I will be happy to teach you a new concept….its called machlokes. What it means is that sometimes rabbanim disagree. So when you said “the” Torah greats what you really should have typed is “some” Torah greats.

    Rav Herschel Schachter shlita, for example, is what we call a Gadol, and he would probably disagree about MO being illegitimate. This is just so you understand what a machlokes is, so as to address your claim regarding what “all” the gedolim say about MO. Again I reiterate that your approval of our lifestyle means literally nothing to any of us.

    #1146110

    HaKatan
    Participant

    On a related note:

    Rabbi Herschel Shachter, in a Yom HaAtzamos address (posted online) a couple of years ago mentioned how the Brisker Rav asked his daughter and son-in-law to move back to Eretz Yisrael from America. To which RHS remarked, “Sounds like a Zionist to me”. Of course, the Brisker Rav was very much not a Zionist; quite the opposite as, presumably, RHS knows quite well.

    As RHS, himself, noted in that same address, RHS’s own “psak” is that if someone would learn better, shiurim, etc. outside E”Y, versus if he were to move to E”Y, then he should NOT move to E”Y and stay where he is.

    Obviously, then, the Brisker Rav recalling his kids to live in E”Y had to do with their particular reasons and nothing to do with Zionism of any flavor, CH”V.

    I won’t speculate as to why RHS conflated the issue of Zionism with an objective decision of when to or not to live in E”Y especially given his own view on the matter stated in that same address. But the Brisker Rav was obviously not a Zionist and that same Brisker Rav said that Zionism is A”Z among other things.

    #1146111

    HaKatan
    Participant

    GAW:

    Agudah would, presumably, take money from whomever their rabbinic board permits them to take money. I don’t understand the relevance of that to this topic.

    The Israeli parliament is referred to in some sefarim as “knesses haMinim”. I am not aware of the heter the Agudah “MK”s use to enter that place, but I do know that the Brisker Rav would advise “MK” Rabbi Shlomo Lorincz Z”L about various Klal matters, and that Rabbi Lorincz did what he could for Klal Yisrael “working from within” the Zionists.

    Regarding the wine, I have not seen anything brought down about that so I would have to ask my LOR. I think it’s an excellent question, though.

    Regarding the nonsense at the end about Israel and ISIS that you “put in my mouth”:

    Had the Zionists never invaded E”Y, meaning over a century ago (not just in 1948), there would have been no need for an IDF (and there would have not been the Chevron Massacre in the 1920s, et al.), which is what the holy Chazon Ish told the first Zionist Prime Minister, as I mentioned above.

    Now that the reality is that the Zionists have invaded E”Y and clearly are powerless to protect their citizens as, unfortunately, is quite evident from not only recent news reports but going all the way back to 1948 and before, it seems we need a miracle to resolve this. But davening for the Zionists is still 1000% wrong; we daven that Hashem should keep all Jews safe and sound, however HE chooses to do so.

    May Hashem redeem us all with the true geulah BB”A.

    #1146113

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t understand – would you also ask your LOR if you could drink wine touched by a buddhist and say it was an excellent question?

    #1146114

    HaKatan
    Participant

    ronald9:

    You are assuming that RHS is a “gadol” and on par with his peer “gedolim” and, more importantly, assuming that he is on par with the recognized gedolim who preceded him, some by generations, who oppose his views.

    Since even he would not say that the latter is true, your premise falls apart.

    As well, a “machlokes”, as you surely know since you are so well-educated and have “opened a gemara”, denotes two legitimate opposing positions, as in, for example, Rava and Abaye, and NOT, for example, Torah Judaism vs. lihavdil, Jews for J.

    #1146115

    HaKatan
    Participant

    DY:

    No, I would not do so and would not say it’s an excellent question.

    Unlike by a Buddhist, it is not at all clear to me that every MO adherent believes in the heresies of MO to the point that it would render them heretics. Therefore, I cannot assume that their wine is yayin nesech and would need to ask that question.

    #1146116

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Agudah would, presumably, take money from whomever their rabbinic board permits them to take money. I don’t understand the relevance of that to this topic.

    So you are punting and putting the impetus on their “Rabbinic board”. Is it getting Ha’naha from Avoda Zara or not? Relevant to this discussion, are you actively being M’karev your “brothers” who are openly being Nehenah from Avodah Zara?

    The Israeli parliament is referred to in some sefarim as “knesses haMinim”. I am not aware of the heter the Agudah “MK”s use to enter that place, but I do know that the Brisker Rav would advise “MK” Rabbi Shlomo Lorincz Z”L about various Klal matters, and that Rabbi Lorincz did what he could for Klal Yisrael “working from within” the Zionists.

    Referring to it as a “knesses haMinim” or a pig’s home means nothing other than exaggeration and hyperbole. If the Brisker Rav did not say it is assur to enter as a Makom Avodah Zara, then it is Muttar. He would not have advised someone who entered a meeting in a Church.

    Regarding the wine, I have not seen anything brought down about that so I would have to ask my LOR. I think it’s an excellent question, though.

    Please ask and get back to us. If he says “no”, will you agree that Zionism is not Avodah Zara?

    Regarding the nonsense at the end about Israel and ISIS that you “put in my mouth”:

    Had the Zionists never invaded E”Y, meaning over a century ago (not just in 1948), there would have been no need for an IDF (and there would have not been the Chevron Massacre in the 1920s, et al.), which is what the holy Chazon Ish told the first Zionist Prime Minister, as I mentioned above.

    Now that the reality is that the Zionists have invaded E”Y and clearly are powerless to protect their citizens as, unfortunately, is quite evident from not only recent news reports but going all the way back to 1948 and before, it seems we need a miracle to resolve this. But davening for the Zionists is still 1000% wrong; we daven that Hashem should keep all Jews safe and sound, however HE chooses to do so.

    You said the same thing that I did using more words.

    #1146117

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Sam2:

    I am honored that you bothered to read my posts which I thought you ignored. But since I clearly stated that MO people should be loved as Jews no less than traditional orthodox people, why do you imply that I was “[h]urling invective and [engaging in] ad hominem attacks”?

    I do not find that post at all ironic.

    #1146118

    ronald9
    Participant

    well seeing that Zionism and the term MO (not the hashkafa of learning secular studies..see my post above) are relatively new..im not sure why they would be addressed by gedolim of years past. So add history to the long list of stuff you need to learn

    MO as defined today has just as much or more tradition behind it than whatever titles haredim are making up for themselves these days

    #1146119

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why is it not clear to you, since you have stated that’s it’s a basic tenet?

    #1146120

    HaKatan
    Participant

    GAW:

    Regarding Zionist money and Agudah, et al., I still don’t understand the relevance: Just because Zionism is A”Z, I don’t see how it automatically follows that getting money from the Israeli government must be mamon A”Z. Again, their Rabbinic board can paskin on that. But if Agudah were CH”V espousing Zionism, that would, of course, be a different matter.

    Regarding the Israeli Parliament, I don’t see your point. Let’s assume that it was permitted for Rabbi Lorincz to enter that abominable place (and for the current ones to do so). That has no relevance to the overall issue that Zionism is A”Z.

    Regarding the wine:

    Please see my response to DY above (assuming it gets posted).

    But, no, just because their wine is not ruled yayin nesech does not change the reality that the gedolim held that Zionism is A”Z.

    Regarding the Zionists setting E”Y aflame and foolishly provoking the savages:

    I’m glad we agree on this.

    #1146121

    ronald9
    Participant

    “Since even he would not say that the latter is true, your premise falls apart.”

    You’re right Rav Schachter shlita doesn’t think his own views are legitimate …lol hakatan honestly maybe if you spent half the time that you waste here making a fool of yourself learning something you wouldn’t sound so silly

    #1146122

    HaKatan
    Participant

    ronald9:

    Let’s try this again.

    Zionism, which is a basic tenet of the MO faith, has been around for well over a century. Hence, it was addressed by gedolim of generations past.

    However, it is, with all due respect, absurd to claim that MO has “just as much or more tradition behind it than whatever titles haredim are making up for themselves these days” when MO was invented by RYBS around a half-century ago while the Torah was given to us thousands of years ago.

    DY:

    I don’t understand your question. It is very clear to me.

    #1146123

    HaKatan
    Participant

    ronald9:

    I’m sorry you misunderstood that post. Rabbi Schachter likely does believe his views are legitimate, but would not claim he is greater than Rav Chaim Brisker, et al.

    #1146124

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Please see my response to DY above (assuming it gets posted).

    But, no, just because their wine is not ruled yayin nesech does not change the reality that the gedolim held that Zionism is A”Z

    If they held it is A”Z, why does it not follow, without even asking your LOR (who surely isn’t as great as the gedolim you quote), that their wine is assur?

    #1146125

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    GAW:

    Regarding Zionist money and Agudah, et al., I still don’t understand the relevance: Just because Zionism is A”Z, I don’t see how it automatically follows that getting money from the Israeli government must be mamon A”Z. Again, their Rabbinic board can paskin on that. But if Agudah were CH”V espousing Zionism, that would, of course, be a different matter.

    It is Assur to be Neheneh from Avodah Zara. Hence, if Zionism is AZ, then it is assur to take Zionistic money.

    Are you saying they have a different Shittah?

    Regarding the Israeli Parliament, I don’t see your point. Let’s assume that it was permitted for Rabbi Lorincz to enter that abominable place (and for the current ones to do so). That has no relevance to the overall issue that Zionism is A”Z.

    If is is permitted, then it is not Avodah Zara. It is Assur to enter a Makom Avoda Zara.

    Regarding the wine:

    Please see my response to DY above (assuming it gets posted).

    But, no, just because their wine is not ruled yayin nesech does not change the reality that the gedolim held that Zionism is A”Z.

    Regarding the Zionists setting E”Y aflame and foolishly provoking the savages:

    I’m glad we agree on this.

    We don’t agree, but I do know what your shittah is. Standard Satmar/Neturei Karta.

    #1146126

    ronald9
    Participant

    “MO was invented by RYBS around a half-century ago while the Torah was given to us thousands of years ago.”

    The term perhaps, and some of the specifics responding to our current environment. But the shitta of learning secular studies and participating in general society is certainly traditional Judaism as our ancestors practiced it. Primary example would of course be the Rambam. Haredi Judaism is a modern day invention to respond to a more open world. Certainly legitimate but hardly traditional Torah Jewry. Ill give you another example…the GRA as is well known translated several geometry books…not a specific isolated example im just demonstrating that what we call MO is more closely aligned with how Judaism has traditionally been practiced.

    #1146127

    Sam2
    Participant

    Well, HaKatan’s taking an off the cuff humorous comment in the middle of a Shiur as a way to make R’ Schachter seem like a fool constitutes an ad hominem attack, and something the mods certainly shouldn’t have let through.

    #1146128

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    HaKatan, you claim the MO was invented by HaGaon R’ Soloveitchik zt”l about 50 years ago. Can you please specify, what did he invent? Did he change halachos? What halachos were they? What did he invent that was a change? How did it differ than “inventions” such as those of R’ Moshe Feinstein and R’ SZ Auerbach zt”l? They “invented” halachos as well – for example, the question of a Shabbos clock, or for medical situations that never existed before. They “invented” the piskei halachah for the new situations that arose – as did R’ Soloveitchik zt”l.

    #1146129

    Ash
    Participant

    @damoshe Can you please specify, what did he invent?

    I’m not HaKatan but presumably he meant Torah Umaddah. (Not a collection of halochos but a lifestyle and philosophy.)

    #1146130

    OURtorah
    Participant

    Hakatan-

    “Had the Zionists never invaded E”Y, meaning over a century ago (not just in 1948), there would have been no need for an IDF (and there would have not been the Chevron Massacre in the 1920s, et al.), which is what the holy Chazon Ish told the first Zionist Prime Minister, as I mentioned above.

    Now that the reality is that the Zionists have invaded E”Y and clearly are powerless to protect their citizens as, unfortunately, is quite evident from not only recent news reports but going all the way back to 1948 and before, it seems we need a miracle to resolve this. But davening for the Zionists is still 1000% wrong; we daven that Hashem should keep all Jews safe and sound, however HE chooses to do so.”

    Please go tell that to my dear grandparents who suffered through the Holocaust, watched their parents get shot in front of their face, watch their siblings burn up into flames and have everything striped away from them.

    Go tell my Zaide that “invading E’Y” was the wrong thing to do, because he frankly had no where else to go. Go tell him that “there is no need for an IDF”, or people with guns to protect people living their daily lives, LEARNING TORAH, living TORAH. Because guess what Hakatan, if HE had a choice in 1939, he would have run straight behind the IDF in his beloved E’Y for protection. But he didn’t have that choice. Today we have that choice- like it or hate it with every ounce of you.

    If you are going to slander zionism again in your next post, please just refrain from writing. I don’t care what your stances are, I care that you are caring, but you aren’t. You come from such a close minded place that I can be positive it didn’t even occur to you to think about how offensive the way your talking is.

    MY bubby and zadie didn’t survive to see people like YOU exist. And my zadie is the most upright Jew you have ever met. His emunah is 30000000x greater than ALL of us put together. He walks around daily with a smile on his face, teaching others to have faith in Hashem, he has spoken to thousands of CHRISTIANS, MUSLIMS and of course jews. Why? Because their differences DO NOT MATTER. He wants to spread LOVE. LOVE. LOVE.

    You want to spread angst against a FELLOW JEW. How DARE you? Were 6 million precious beloved Jewish deaths not enough for you? I don’t feel your love towards me, that you “claim”. I feel uncomfortable and if we were talking face to face I would literaly be staring at you in shock. And its very possible my hashkafa totally matches yours. Its possible I believe the Jewish state is avoda zara too. But it’s totally ireelevant, because the way your talking trumps all. Your words are hateful, and if you don’t see it that way, I AM TELLING YOU THEY R HURTFUL. You pick from every rabbi the way they slander other Jews. Start looking at the positives man. Start seeing the beauty in other people, and learn from everyone. Other rabbis have amazing things to say and can be gedolim too, just because they are not your hashkafa.

    #1146131

    One Liner
    Member

    This is all getting a bit silly.

    #1146132

    One Liner
    Member

    Although it started off as an intelligent conversation.

    #1146133

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant
    #1146134

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes, RebYidd23, especially when telling them to be kind to people.

    #1146135

    mw13
    Participant

    Sam2:

    Well, HaKatan’s taking an off the cuff humorous comment in the middle of a Shiur as a way to make R’ Schachter seem like a fool constitutes an ad hominem attack, and something the mods certainly shouldn’t have let through.

    Listen, I by no means agree with everything HaKatan has said. But I think to label that comment “an ad hominem attack” is simply not true.

    If anything, HaKatan has been on the receiving end of most of the attacks here.

    OURtorah:

    MY bubby and zadie didn’t survive to see people like YOU exist.

    That is an absolutely horrible thing to say. I don’t care how right you think you are, nothing justifies a comment like that. And this coming in the middle of a comment preaching about “LOVE,. LOVE. LOVE”, no less.

    “Your words are hateful, and if you don’t see it that way, I AM TELLING YOU THEY R HURTFUL.”

    #1146136

    HaKatan
    Participant

    ronald9 and DaMoshe:

    Please see Joseph’s link in his post on the first page.

    GAW:

    It is historical fact that the Zionists invaded E”Y and provoked the savages there and in opposition to the observant Jews already living there. What is, unfortunately, still not understood by many, is that Zionism is diametrically opposed to Torah and that the Zionists are the enemy of the Jewish people.

    As the Brisker Rav, who lived in E”Y before, during and after the State’s founding in 1948 noted, “The state that they have managed to achieve is the greatest triumph of the Satan since the Cheit HaEigel”.

    #1146137

    HaKatan
    Participant

    ronald9 and DaMoshe:

    Please see Joseph’s link in his post on the first page.

    GAW:

    It is historical fact that the Zionists invaded E”Y and provoked the savages there and in opposition to the observant Jews already living there. What is, unfortunately, still not understood by many, is that Zionism is diametrically opposed to Torah and that the Zionists are the enemy of the Jewish people.

    As the Brisker Rav, who lived in E”Y before, during and after the State’s founding in 1948 noted, “The state that they have managed to achieve is the greatest triumph of the Satan since the Cheit HaEigel”.

    #1146138

    OURtorah
    Participant

    Mw13- no your right that was hateful.

    #1146139

    HaKatan
    Participant

    OURTorah:

    In order to have any sort of educated opinion on Zionism and WW II, you first have to know a number of facts, some related to religion and other related to plain history.

    Rav Chaim Brisker remarked that people mistakenly think that the Zionists feel the need to shmad Jews (this is around 100 years ago) in order to get a State.

    In reality, it is the opposite: they need a State in order to shmad Jews.

    The raison d’etre of Zionism is to turn the Jewish nation into a secular nationalist nation, obviously devoid of Torah, just like the Italians in Italy and the French in France.

    Next:

    The Zionists were already a political power long before 1948 and even before WW II.

    The Zionists were recognized by the nations as the representatives of World Jewry.

    The Zionists adopted the slogan “Rak biDam tihye lanu haAretz”, that they needed Jewish blood to be spilled in Europe so that the nations would feel sufficiently “guilty” to give them a State afterwards.

    The Zionists lobbied governments AGAINST allowing in any Jews fleeing Europe because doing so would weaken Zionism, knowing full well that these Jews would be gassed as a result.

    The Zionists’ acts and non-acts during WW II caused Jews to die in WW II.

    There’s plenty more, but that’s sickening enough.

    The Satmar Rav goes further in blaming Zionism for WW II, but I will refrain from posting further about that.

    Regardless, it is a most sad irony to see a Holocaust survivor who is also in any way a Zionist.

    #1146140

    mw13
    Participant

    Don’t tell it to me, apologize to Hakatan.

    #1146141

    HaKatan
    Participant

    OURTorah:

    Had the Zionists not invaded E”Y and not riled up the Arabs, thus causing the British (who the UN tasked with administering Mandatory Palestine) to limit Jewish emigration to Palestine, perhaps many other Jews could have joined those who did make it to Palestine to escape the war. Yet you PRAISE the Zionists for this?

    Regarding your various thoughts about me in that post:

    Your line about how your grandparents didn’t survive to see people like me exist is clearly out of line and very wrong, too. Regardless, and in case you’re really wondering, if I were talking to any survivors, I would very likely not be discussing any of this.

    I don’t know why you feel that “I want to spread angst about” anyone, CH”V. I simply quoted what our gedolim have unequivocally stated is or is not Torah. The Torah is not for sale no matter who feels differently and who they think they can rely on to twist the Torah, CH”V.

    Saying that I “pick from every Rabbi the way they slander other Jews” is both wrong and, even if it were true (which it most certainly is not), is still wrong. These Torah greats had zero personal gain, and, in many cases suffered terribly, as a result of their keeping the Torah path clear of various isms and corruptions that came its way. Unfortunately, many have been blinded by Zionism despite those efforts.

    Regarding your admonishment that I “start looking at the positives”, nothing that I posted should indicate that I am doing any differently than you demanded. I simply conveyed that MO, according to our Torah sages, is not a valid derech. I took care to clarify that this was not intended to convey any negativity on MO adherents.

    As well, you have zero right and zero basis to claim that I don’t “see the beauty in other people”. You have absolutely no idea if that is true or not and you also have absolutely no idea to what extent it is or is not true.

    Again, I spoke about a philosophy/theology and its sources, not the people.

    Regarding your last statement, that other rabbis can be gedolim even if they have a different hashkafa than I do, this is also wrong. First, I am not expressing my own hashkafa but rather (trying to express) that of the greatest Torah sages of the past few generations. As well, while gedolim can and do certainly have different hashkafos, as you mentioned, they are NOT entitled to do so when that hashkafa is against the Torah, as is the case with MO/RZ.

    #1146142

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Sam2:

    Surely since you proudly know so much of both Torah and (lihavdil) Maddah, you know and understand the definition of ad hominem attack and you also certainly understand that my post was very much about the position he took, as indicated by the rest of my post which analyzed that position.

    For you to disagree with my analysis of that position is fair. But to simply state that it’s an ad hominem attack is plainly wrong and unfair.

    #1146143

    Sam2
    Participant

    mw13: Your claim that HaKatan is the victims of most attacks here is equivalent to the media classifying the Palenstinian terrorists as victims once police officers shoot them.

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