‘ a modern orthodox person must dress like the goyim (they are after all “most people”) and speak like a goy.’
Please cite the posek where it is asur to use correct grammar and vocabulary.
Also, black fedoras, white dress shirts, and suits are certainly goyish dress.
Charlie, are you saying that there are no Yeshivish Roshei Yeshiva that hadn’t gone to University? I do remember some very prominent RY with college educations.
“Charlie, are you saying that there are no Yeshivish Roshei Yeshiva that hadn’t gone to University? I do remember some very prominent RY with college educations. “
Not at all! For example, Rabbi Avigdor Miller z’tz’l went to YU. So did Rabbi Daniel Greer. Rav Hutner z’tz’l took classes at the University of Berlin (where he became close to Rov Soloveitchik). There are others.
There are also examples of Chasidic Rebbes with university education including many of the members of the Twersky/Twerski families. (The different lines spell their names differently in English.) And of course the Lubavicher Rebbe earned an engineering degree in France.
I guess my distinction is that even many of the university-educated yeshivish rabbis generally downplay (or, in the case of R’Miller, actively discourage) university education. Like many generalizations, it is imperfect and should be accepted with caution.
I think that the real truth is that all Orthodox rabbis — and in fact all Orthodox paths — put Torah first. And while we agree on 99% of the Torah, there are some important differences, including the desirability of a Jewish state, the degree to which secular education is to be encouraged, the degree to which Torah opportunies in particular advanced education should be open to women, and the degree to which we should attempt to coerce mitzvah observance. Many if not most of these are public policy issues, not halachic issues.
the shitah of modern orthodoxy is to assimilate the modern goyish modes of conduct into their lives of adherence to all aspects of Halachah (generally, in practice, being as makil as Halachah permits).
while in this generation, in the western world, many Chareidim have also embraced the goyish culture and values in many ways, for them it is not a shitah, but rather a failing.
therein is the critically significant difference.
Mod-80, we don’t assimilate all goyish modes, and we definitely are not as meikel as halachah allows for. We may not take on unnecessary chumros, but we are machmir on many things that chareidim aren’t.
Can anyone explain to me why this thread is important? What good will generate from this? Let everyone do what he feels is right (according to his Da’as Torah, of course) and everything will be just fine.
i certainly didnt say or imply “all” modes
the chareidim shitah is that chumros arent “unecessary”
i wasnt aware that MO are machmir on many things that chareidim arent, thanks for pointing that out
and of course dave hirsch is correct