#modern Yeshivish

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  • #1050261

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    So now that oyyoyyoy has joined the bandwagon (or perhaps in this case, the bannedwagon) it seems that we already have four people just in this thread who “don’t fit in any box”. Six more and we can start a shul. And we might not even need a Rabbi considering that one of our members might be halfway on* the road to Maharat-hood.

    * writersoul: I actually wonder if you meant halfway on the road or halfway down the road. While both make sense, they mean two different things.

    #1050262

    Count me in the “dont fit in any box” group. Boxes are overrated.

    #1050263

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    haha, while i do have in-box friends, i also have a group of out-box friends awso. there is more of a comfort with them. thats like five more.

    #1050265

    writersoul
    Member

    PAA: You’re for partnership minyanim now? That’s definitely a box…

    πŸ™‚

    I think you’ll find you need seven people. Or just take secretagentyid instead of me, though I’ll volunteer to start a N’shei.

    And yeah, probably both are quite accurate. Or apply to different people.

    oyyoyyoy: Just having like-minded people is generally nice. I had almost none until high school, and that makes me more sensitive to it than others may be.

    I mean, I have out-of-the-box friends who seem to be a lot less hung up on it than I am, and I have some who don’t seem hung up on it but when I talk to them really are.

    #1050266

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    PAA: You’re for partnership minyanim now? That’s definitely a box…

    πŸ™‚

    I think you’ll find you need seven people. Or just take secretagentyid instead of me, though I’ll volunteer to start a N’shei.

    When I wrote that post I was wondering if I should preempt this misunderstanding but I decided not to. I wasn’t suggesting that we should have a minyan of women. I was assuming that the women involved will have have husbands. Which in retrospect may have been a bad assumption because there might be single girls who want to join the shul. So maybe we should do a partership minyan after all.

    And yeah, probably both are quite accurate.

    Is this referring to my question about the road, or something else?

    #1050267

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The problem is though, that people tend to lump all out-of-the-box people together, as if there was a box called “out-of-the-box”, when in fact out-of-the-box people are not necessarily ???? ?? ???.

    #1050268

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    PAA- Truw. But i think out-box people are more tolerant and can relate better to other out-boxers (oy), who by the by might also be seeking friends. Especially if both out-boxers have similar upbringings or backgrounds.

    #1050269

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    Here’s a breakdown of the difficulties as i see it:

    1. Having Friends

    a) at all

    b) that you are/feel close with

    c) that you are/feel not an outcast with

    d) who u can put your gaurd down around and don’t have to be on defense

    2. Belonging To A Sect

    a) for feeling at home and a sense of kinship

    b) who u can put your gaurd down around and don’t have to be on defense

    c) you can just follow what comes along naturally instead of having to go thru each decision thoroughly

    3. The Future

    a) where do you live

    b) where do you go to shul

    c) where do you send your kids to school

    wow, sorry thought that would be helpful but seems pwetty negative. I still think it will be helpful in discussing this and trying to work out a solution, but it’s probably gonna be hard and gonna take a while.

    #1050271

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Oyyoyyoy:

    I’m not sure that your assertion that “out-box people are more tolerant” is correct. As I pointed out in my second response to writersoul, I think their tolerance is more of a function of being in the middle than of not being in a group. Let’s assume that the average out-of-the-boxer is somewhere between modern and yeshivish (which may or may not be true, but I’m assuming it for the sake of making a point, and also I think it is what hashtag’s original post was about). So while the out-of-the-boxer might be more tolerant of the yeshivisher than the modernite is of the yeshivisher, and he is more tolerant of the modernite than the yeshivisher is of the modernite, he might be less tolerant of an open orthodoxite than the modernite is of the open orthodoxite, and he might be less tolerant of an extreme anti-zionist than the yeshivisher is of the extreme anti-zionist. This would be because a modernite is ideologically closer to an open orthodoxite than our protagonist is and a yeshivisher is ideologically closer to the anti-zionist than our protagonist is.

    In essence my point is that I suspect that most out-of-the-boxers are not really out of the box; they are either in between two boxes or vacillating between two boxes. Naturally people will be more tolerant of those who are ideologically closer to them than they are of those who are not as ideologically close to them. However, someone who is truly out of the box is someone who doesn’t identify with any group, but appreciates different aspects of different groups and perhaps evaluates every issue separately. Such a person might have commonalities with every group along the ideological spectrum, and such a person will probably be more tolerant. Or I could also see such a person being less tolerant since he disagrees with every group. So maybe I take back what I just said, and in reality, tolerance has nothing to do with where you stand, but simply with how tolerant you are. Or maybe I’m not making any sense. I don’t know, so I’ll let you guys decide.

    #1050272

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    WE’RE SORRY, PLEASE WAIT WHILE OYYOYYOY PONDERS…

    #1050273

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Here’s a breakdown of the difficulties as i see it:

    1. Having Friends

    a) at all

    b) that you are/feel close with

    c) that you are/feel not an outcast with

    d) who u can put your gaurd down around and don’t have to be on defense

    2. Belonging To A Sect

    a) for feeling at home and a sense of kinship

    b) who u can put your gaurd down around and don’t have to be on defense

    c) you can just follow what comes along naturally instead of having to go thru each decision thoroughly

    That’s why we have the coffee room.

    #1050274

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    It means you pretty much act like MO, but you don’t hold of MO hashkafos like zionism and torah u’maddah etc. Some might say, no torah or maddah.

    MO machmir means you pretty much act yeshivish, but you DO hold of MO hashkafos like zionism and torah umaddah, etc. They are known for the mitzva of hajj, the annual pilgrimage to the SOY sefarim sale.

    #1050275

    Avi K
    Participant

    Randmex, I did not write someone who has a job but someone who has a secular profession (i.e not Tora chinuch, safrut, etc.). I also did not say anything about being “left”. Actually, this term is somewhat misleading in regards to Jewish hashkafot as it originated in the French National Assembly, where the monarchists sat on the right and the republicans on the left. Thus getting a job should put someone on the right as he is upholding tradition whereas living on tzedaka as an ideology is left (this is especially true in the US, where the Left has created a welfare culture and the Right opposes it).

    #1050276

    writersoul
    Member

    PAA:

    To answer your points:

    1) As I’m sure you assumed, it was a joke :). And either way, I’m on the N’shei. I’ll organize some killer ladies’ gemara shiurim and shlissel challah baking to accommodate everyone in our nice out of the box little shtieble :). My husband can definitely be counted in your minyan after I track him down, but til then…

    2) Yes.

    PBA: What do you mean by act yeshivish? Dress betznius? Be serious about Torah? Think that ten year olds shouldn’t have smartphones?

    Hmmm…

    GO SEFARIM SALE! (I only went once because I kept on having other stuff but it is the coolest. Did you know that they actually turned a profit last year?)

    #1050277

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    That’s why we have the coffee room.

    its no joke. the ratio of out-box people to in-box people is quite larger here than the real world. this really explains it.

    #1050278

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    writersoul:

    How about a killer ladies gemara shiur entitled Sclissel Challah: Beautiful Minhag or Issur D’oraisa? And since this is after all “our nice out of the box little shtieble” the conclusion can be that everyone do whatever they want.

    #1050279

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Typo:

    “Sclissel” should say “Shlissel”.

    #1050282

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    the ratio of out-box people to in-box people is quite larger here than the real world. this really explains it.

    I’m not sure. It could just be that the ratio of of people who publicize their out-of-the-boxness is higher in the coffee room than in the real world.

    #1050283

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    true but between me n u, u were basicly saying it urself

    #1050284

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    oyyoyyoy:

    What I originally said was

    That’s why we have the coffee room

    Meaning that the coffee room can provide the “having friends” and the “belonging to a sect”. I don’t think that that insinuates that out-of-the-boxers make up a larger percentage of the coffee room than of the real world (though I am by no means denying the possibility). It is eminently plausible that people are more willing to publicize their out-of-the-boxness in an anonymous forum than in real life.

    Also, even if you are correct, I have been known to disagree with myself before, and certainly to question something which I had previously said.

    #1050285

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    There was once a girl who didn’t know what category to marry. After all there are so many different categories: Yeshivish, Modernish, Chassidish, Litvish, Heimish, British, etc. Then she had an epiphany. “Why don’t I find something that all these categories have in common?” she said. Well she searched mizrach mizrach, ma’ariv ma’riv, l’ma’aleh l’ma’aleh, l’mateh l’mateh, tzufin tzufin, durim durim, and the only thing she could find was that they all are “ish”. So she decided to marry an ish. And they may or may not have lived happily ever after.

    #1050286

    #Awesome! PAA!

    #1050287

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Thank you.

    #1050288

    oomis
    Participant

    PAA, did you make that up??????? Bli neder, I am telling it over this Shabbos in your name. Very well-said. Shkoyach!

    #1050289

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Oomis:

    Thank you. I did indeed make it up. I am honored that you want to say it over, all the more so in my name.

    #1050290

    ish – is that the yeshivish version of eesh?

    #1050291

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Syag:

    “Ish” is the transliterated version of ???.

    #1050292

    You forgot to post the rest of the story.

    After thinking for a while that he was unselfish and filled with the midos of someone Jewish, she began to distinguish between reality and what had been merely a wish.

    It started when she sent him to buy gefite fish, but he came home with a potato knish. When she asked for a danish, he got her a piece of licorice. It seemed so amateurish to have such an obvious blemish.

    “You’ll impoverish us!” she said once in a fit of snappish frustration, “if you continue to do things so outlandish”.

    Pesach was a nightmare. He would only eat horseradish, and wouldn’t mish.

    Things continued to become more and more nightmarish, and got to the point where they separated, and he was ????? ?”? ????.

    She realized that only caring about the last three letters of his characteristics was extremely foolish.

    My supply of ish words I did finish (it was pretty smallish, sorry more I couldn’t furnish), but maybe I’ll post more if I replenish.

    #1050293

    PAA – you don’t really think I was asking that, do you?

    #1050294

    πŸ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    But those three letters are the most important.

    #1050295

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    DaasYochid:

    A CLEVERISH attempt but you got the wrong ending. Now you are forcing me to EMBELLISH my story. You see the girl in my story was actually rather SMARTISH and thus she realized that certain things are grounds to EXTINGUISH a marriage whereas other things are not so important as to cause her to RELINQUISH her husband and DEMOLISH her Bayis Ne’eman B’yisrael. She understood that such MINORISH things as what foods he eats are immaterial, and instead her focus would be to ESTABLISH a loving relationship. If she could ACCOMPLISH this then everything else would fall into place. Indeed she achieved this with a FLOURISH, and was able to VANQUISH any doubts she had had. Her husband was not BABYISH, nor BOORISH; he learned Torah in the Beis MEDRISH, performed mitzvos, and had much devotion when saying yehei shemei rabbah in KADDISH. With her loving husband at her side, all her problems seemed to VANISH. She would prepare him LAVISH meals (which might include a RADISH), but she knew that even if she didn’t, he would never PUNISH her. He would always offer to wash the DISH and POLISH it too so that it wouldn’t TARNISH and she would not BANISH him from the kitchen which gave them much time to spend conversing in ENGLISH. They would rarely have a SKIRMISH and they weren’t SQUEAMISH about making up. All in all, life was great; in fact her friends were jealous of her marriage. They would SQUISH into her house to tell her about their ANGUISH and she would ASTONISH them (though she would not ADMONISH them) with her simple responses. She would never DIMINISH her husband, and they never had to LANGUISH. And everyday he would thank her for letting him simply be… an ISH.

    She realized that her story could help many young people who are FEVERISH about finding their spouse so she gave me permission to PUBLISH it here.

    #1050296

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Syag:

    I wasn’t sure what you meant so I played it safe.

    #1050297

    You probably figured unless she got a kallah shas when she got married, she wouldn’t know.

    #1050298

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    More likely, because I didn’t get a kallah shas, I couldn’t figure out what she was asking. By the way, don’t think I’m ignoring your very DaasYochidish post; I responded to it but it hasn’t been approved yet.

    #1050299

    Sasha52318
    Member

    What’s the difference between Modern Orthodox Machmir & Modern Yeshivish?

    #1050300

    Patur, since our posts both had ish in a lot of words, they both must be saying essentially the same thing. I think I’ve said enough on the ish, you.

    #1050301

    charliehall
    Participant

    I didn’t know that there were so many frum Jews that we could afford to divide into this many subcategories.

    #1050302

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Yes, Charlie, despite Avi Weiss’s best efforts, there are still enough frum Jews that we can afford to divide them into this many subcategories.

    #1050303

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    well played dudes.

    but u gotta agree, it’s a bit childish to think most people from different ends of the spectrum can have a good marriage.

    #1050304

    #Sasha Here’s Lior’s answer to ur question…

    #What is that supposed to mean.

    When asked to categorize myself, for shidduchim, i never know what to answer,

    I’m an open-minded BY type of girl, BUt I wouln’t consider myself yeshivish, hashkafically.

    And then, what does Modern orthodox machmir mean?

    POSTED 1 WEEK AGO #

    Lior

    Member

    To be blunt, the first one is referring to someone who became less frum while the latter one is referring to someone who became more frum. Note the first one may be frummer than the latter, but importantly they are moving in opposite directions; one for the worse and one for the better.

    POSTED 1 WEEK AGO #

    #1050305

    I don’t agree with his definition.

    #1050306

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    oyyoyyoy:

    Do you think that most people on the same end of the spectrum can have a good marriage?

    #1050307

    Sasha52318
    Member

    hashtag poster, I read that but I still don’t feel like I clearly know the line that differentiates Yeshivish Modern and MO? What about baalei teshuva who consider themselves MY? They only got frummer, no? I consider myself ‘Yeshivish-leaning’ so do I tick MO/MY?

    #1050308

    So far, popa’s definition is the most accurate (but I don’t know what hajj is).

    #1050309

    Sasha52318
    Member

    #thanks

    My Rav identifies with the Yeshivish Black Hat world, but he’s pro Israel He’s also okay with watching decent movies though I doubt at his house as he does not have a TV, and definitely not at the cinema. One of his daughters had a strictly segregated wedding & his wife and daughters dress Yeshivish style (which includes stockings. I find the MO community do not conform to this…). Is this a Modern Yeshivish Hashkafa?

    #1050310

    ED IT OR
    Participant

    where does israel come into religion?.

    #1050311

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Sasha, no. That is MO machmir. That is the very definition of mo machmir.

    #1050312

    apushatayid
    Participant

    The last time someone asked me if someone was modern yeshivish, I replied, I’m pretty sure he learns in s yeshiva that has indoor plumbing electricity and they recently put up telephone wires.

    #1050313

    That is the very definition of mo machmir

    It probably is MO machmir, but the very definition? I think the term is used more broadly than that.

    #1050314

    Sasha52318
    Member

    Okay… What then makes a person Yeshivish Inclined or Yeshivish leaning?

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