November 1, 2010 3:53 am at 3:53 am #711703WiseWomanMember
It makes me sick when Rabbis have to cover up these things. Why should a Jew who did such horrible things not face the consequences of this actions? I just heard of a sick one now…member of a family molested another member of the family.(I prefer not to give the details) but this man should be put in jail and deserves it! How dare he molest a child? And then when the truth comes out how can you not believe something like that? Why would a child want to make something like this up? It’s brave of a child when they say “I was touched here.” You need to commend them not condem them! When I was a child I used to get nervous when I was the last one on the bus because I didnt know what this bus driver would do. So I used to get off the bus with someone else and walk home. Yes I was only 13 but again, I was taught that there are sickos out there and I need to be careful. I didnt want to be put into a situation that could become dangerous. There is absolutely no reason why molesting should be covered up. Unfortuntely it happens and the person doing it deserves to be punished, NOT have his life saved from humility. He lost his privliges the second he took life away from a child. Why do I say it like that? Because that child’s life has been ruined forever! That man deserves to sit and rot in jail. You can say a Jew shouldnt sit in jail. However that’s wrong in this situation. He lost his Jewish Identity when he touched that child. How can respect be shown to a rabbi who covers this up? or to a rabbi whos doing this? IT IS WRONG! plain and simply wrong!November 1, 2010 6:15 am at 6:15 am #711704vnishmartemmeodMember
Helpful… we are not talking about VENGEANCE here. We’re talking about PROTECTING children FROM a MOLESTER. And the Torah, is clearly on the side of a child in the case of molestation.November 1, 2010 6:35 am at 6:35 am #711705ramateshkolianMember
I feel like my best protection is: honesty between me and my children- they can tell me anything and I don’t show my reaction (disgust, concern) so they don’t feel intimidated. NUMBER TWO– I pop in their school every so often at different hours. NO ONE WILL MESS WITH MY KID because they know I am extremely involved and can come to the school at any time (or so I hope). BE INVOLVED IN THE SCHOOL, and try to know what’s going on…November 1, 2010 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #711706
Ramat is right; the molesters prey on uncared & unloved children, children with broken homes that no one will follow up with, children that are more vulnerable. Never with the child who’s parents are capable of bringing hell down on them (which they well should!). Never with the child who has a healthy sense of self & boundaries, and know when they are violated – because of healthy, proactive parenting. Never the parents who’s children are confident enough in their parents love to confide in them something that made them feel – violated & used.
They go after the kid that no one really cares about anyway. And the family that will be even more ostracized if they go public; how dare they accuse ___________.
So aren’t we all guilty?November 1, 2010 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #711707
mw13, YOU are going overboard. Why not? Let’s take it to a logical conclusion. When a parent abuses their child it is not b’pharhesia it is in private and they keep it that way. IT is a private busha and the parent most especially wants to keep it that way. AND they don’t want the child to talk about it.
What YOU are suggesting is that the parent ABUSE the child in PUBLIC and that the child comply with that. THAT does not hold water because the child would NOT be able to conform with that and the child would crack under questioning and would eventually tell the therapist and the police that their parents told them to say it! Today’s therapists and police investigators know how to speak with children and find out the truth. They know what questions to ask the parents, teachers, principals, guidance counselors, friends, neighbors, etc. They don’t just go by the word of one person or the child. A thorough investigation is conducted as well as an investigation into possible other victims. While all done quietly and discretely.November 1, 2010 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #711709artchillParticipant
aries2756 is 100% correct with his description of the professional investigation berformed by law enforcement experts. This is something rabbonim are not trained for and should therefore not be involved in at all.
Quick point: Abuse that takes place in the house is NOT A SECRET either. Whatever the child experienced at home becomes public once the child grows up and begins speaking out and letting people know that behind the facade of chashivus, his/her family are in fact rotten to the core. If a parent WILFULLY CHOOSES to abuse their child in any way, understand that what was done in private will eventually be public knowledge. Parents are advised to treat their children with the respect and human dignity they deserve.November 1, 2010 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #711710
Moq, I never said DON’T have rochomonos on the pedophile’s wife and children. I did say don’t have MORE rachomonos on them than on the victims. That is way out of line and a dangerous perspective. The family of a pedophile is not at fault but neither are the victims and their families. So yes one should protect ALL the victims but not the pedophile.
I don’t believe that any victim or victim’s family blames the molester’s family. Unless of course they protect him or they knew what he was doing. You can’t fault someone for being ill. But you can fault someone for not seeking treatment instead of harming others.November 1, 2010 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #711711
Moq, the Agudah had their chance for decades to remove the Rebbeim from the classroom and from the schools but they didn’t. Can you guess how many victims that bred? We can no longer put our faith in Rabbonim to come up with a solution. They had a long long time to figure it out and they couldn’t. Reb Eliyashuv gave his p’sak. A molester is equal to a rodef and they should be turned over to the police. That’s good enough for me.November 1, 2010 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #711712
The fact of the matter is that if you were a man and had been molested, you would very likely be a molester now.
…you should cry for the molester, and say, “there, but for the grace of G-d, go I”.
PBA- it’s so rare for you to say something seriously, that I wish I didn’t have to disagree with you so strongly when you do.
Just because some clown came up with a catchy, philosphical, and politically correct phrase for not looking down on anyone in the world (even Al Capone, right?), does not make it a valid philosophy.
Amend it as follows: There, but for the grace of G-d and A LIFETIME OF BAD CHOICES, go I.
A person does bad because he chooses to do bad. He may be inclined to evil for a number of reasons, but in the end he can still choose to turn away from evil. Do not claim that you or I would make similar bad choices in the event that we had lived through the same circumstances.November 1, 2010 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #711713Elliot PasikMember
Why do some in our community cover for molesters? A few reasons:
It wasn’t so long ago that covering for molesters was considered the frum thing to do. Don’t make a shanda for the goyim. The difficulty here is that cover ups rarely work, and the exposure of the cover up is sometimes worse than the actual crime itself. So now there are two shandas for the goyim instead of one, the crime of molestation, and then the cover up.
Others wrongly believed that covering up would give the molester the chance to get cured. Except there is consensus among psychologists that molesters cannot be cured. General society has handled molesters far better than we have in the past. The Government demands prison, and upon release, the legal label of registered sex offender, which means that a simple background check will likely prevent this deviant from working near children.
Still others covered for molesters because they believed the denials of the molesters, and not the accounts of the children. There is an element of self-preservation at work here. Confronting the evil of a crime like child molestation is not an easy thing to do. Confronting evil means challenging evil, and doing something about it. Look at how many people denied the Holocaust while it was happening. And there have been other genocides since then that some have denied. Moshe and Ahron had to confront Paroh alone. Others stepped away.
We’re now going in the right direction, and Yeshiva World News, and vnishmartemmeod, should be credited for hosting this important discussion.November 1, 2010 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #711714
Aries – I believe he should be turned over to the police (R’ Elyashiv said Rodef? Fascinating – how did you hear that?). I just want to be sure that he is a molester. S-x crime today has entered the realm of McCarthyism; and there is no turning back an accusation, and the police are not reliable. It’s the realty.
As far as Rabbonim, many did fight, for the record. Again, people tried to settle things quietly. It would have been wonderful if it worked.
Also, Rabbonim can be fooled; Rabbonim are human. There are multipel agendas, they are not always right – but they always try. And if there is greater awareness, Mah Tov U’Mah Naim.
It didn’t work; I think most Rabbonim would tell you to hang them out to dry. All I want – is to be sure, and conduct some sort of internal investigation before we deliver them to the police, and – not be gleeful.
Law Enforcement make their careers on this sort of thing; they simple can’t be trusted unless we are sure. And if we aren’t equipped, we need to get equipped with an internal task force – like Takana in Israel. We need to get educated – do we want our Rebbeim hung out to dry like those boys in Duke? Nifong got disbarred; there lives are still destroyed. And what if they hadn’t been wealthy, and were able to afford the best legal help? They would be sitting in prisons for twenty years, and Nifong would have gotten reelected. And it was the perfect storm – the media ate it up – prust college white spoiled kids, poor black girl…the media will eat whatever we feed them.
We need to be careful. if you are sure – internally! based on all of the methods I mentioned before – kill’em. And then cry that you had to.
Aries, do you really disagree?November 1, 2010 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #711715
A. More of my comments are serious than some think.
B. Fine, maybe I’m going to far, but I really think there should be a greater understanding. We can only blame bad choices so far. At a certain point, it is disingenuous to blame everything on bad choices.
I don’t think I am wrong in asserting that among the “risk factors” for molesting, having been molested is higher than being a rasha.
I don’t ask you to fully excuse molesters, certainly their choices play a large part. I do ask that we have a certain understanding in our criticism.
I perceive that societies feel a need to blame those who harm us. We don’t want to be told that killers and thieves are merely doing what they were programmed to do. All the evidence in the world is not enough to convince us that the real difference between the guy on death row and the president is that one grew up on the south side of Chicago, and one grew up in Hawaii; not their character.
If we were to find out that Hitler was really suffering from a mental illness which was genetic and uncontrollable, and he is not in Hell, how would you accept that? Why? Do you need to blame a person? Why can’t we just trace things back to G-d only?
If you found out that the most horrible molester in our community was really not very able to choose and was not held very accountable in heaven, would that bother you? If it would, is your condemnation really a product of true belief or of what you want to think?November 1, 2010 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #711716LBKParticipant
sof davar hakol nishma – What’s the story of R’ Elchonon having killed a moser in the mikvah? I never heard of this….November 1, 2010 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #711717HelpfulMember
LBK, someone who falsely accuses someone of molestation, would have the din of a moser – with all its consequences.November 1, 2010 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #711718
MOQ, yes I disagree. The odds prove you wrong. The Rabbonim are not trained to investigate and they err on the side of caution for their peers. THEY always side with their peers and with what other Rabbonim do and the children suffer. For each molester they don’t find guilty a possible 400 victims will be harmed. That is the statistics, that every molester will hit 400 times, some repeats but who knows? So I am not willing to take that chance are you? The Batei Dinim that were called to order did the same at the risk of ALL children known and unknown for the future. NO Rabbonim cannot be trusted in such cases, they lean towards the kovod of their peers. They look at all the good things he has done versus this one issue which in my opinion far outweighs all the mitzvos. A molester has the blood of his victims on his hands. And the Rabbonim that cover for him or find him NOT GUITLY do as well.
I wholeheartedly disagree with you and would trust the police department in these cases 1,000 percent over the Rabbonim any day. And I would trust the opinion of Rav Eliyashuv on his psak in this matter more so than 1000 Rabbonim you could put together against it. MY eyes have been opened to this years ago. I have done my research on the subject on both the organizations you mentioned. Did you? Did you go back enough years into their pasts and why both are nogeah b’davar?November 1, 2010 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #711719
Helful, I agree anyone who would wrongly accuse someone of being a molester is worse than a killer in my book. This is a very serious matter and a disgusting one. Anyone who would stoop so low as to wrongly accuse someone should have extremely harsh consequences.November 1, 2010 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #711720HelpfulMember
aries, Moq is absolutely correct. The police and prosecutors and courts will hang anyone they can; guilt or innocence are a distant second fiddle. And don’t misrepresent Rav Elyashev’s psak. He specifically said ONLY in cases where the guilt is CERTAIN can the secular authorities be made involved.November 1, 2010 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #711721
No, it would not disturb me to find that in the Olam Ho’emes things are quite different from how we see things down here. In fact, we are told to expect this is the truth.
However, I don’t think that this means we should be trying to figure out how Heaven will deal with such people. We have the obligation to deal with them in the way that seems correct based on our limited understanding, guided by Torah principles. If we act correctly, Heaven can right our errors. If the man does not have the status of Shoita, we will not make excuses for his misbehavior.November 1, 2010 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #711722
No he said only when one is certain he will harm another child! That is what he said. And no the police will not prosecute anyone, because they need the parents and the child to do that. So if they have nothing to go on, they just can’t go! So again I say MOQ is incorrect and one should trust those who have the most expertise and training in the field.November 1, 2010 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #711723WolfishMusingsParticipant
The police and prosecutors and courts will hang anyone they can; guilt or innocence are a distant second fiddle.
Very nice to hear you be Motzei Shem Ra on Jews who are police officers and district attorneys.
Not to mention the police who put their lives on the line to keep the city streets safe.
The WolfNovember 1, 2010 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #711724
aries, you are correct about needing someone with expertise and training to handle these situations. If we were as serious about taking care of these people in the correct way as we are about keeping the whole thing quiet, we would be sending a few “of our own” into the field to get training so that they would be available to “us” to handle “ours” quietly.November 1, 2010 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #711725
But they’ve proven themselves unreliable; come now, you’ve worked in this field – you haven’t seen it? And we need don’t have the expertise necessary – we need to get it, and get educated. But without proof, I’m not willing to kill innocent people because maybe one is a liar.
And the police can do plenty without cooperation from the parents. They can prosecute based on the testimony of a child – they can make the child testify w/o parental consent, they can pressure the parents with charges of neglect and obstruction of justice, they can go after custody, frankly, their standard of proof just doesn’t make the cut. Once you give it to them, the genie is out of the bottle.
If you back out of an investigation, they have ways of making you squawk. They can have the police psychologist testify, the officers you made the initial report to – it ain’t fun. They may not get their verdict, at least they can make your life a living hell and rack up hundred of thousands in legal fees that no one will help you with, and publicly destroy your reputation.
Too many people have sat too long. Come on, you’ve been in field. They prosecute when they shouldn’t , and plea with people they should prosecute. The real ones seem to only get a slap on the wrist.
They just aren’t trustworthy. I can only feed them someone when I know this person will strike again. And if I don’t have the expertise, I need to get it. There are PI firms that specialize in this, and they are not obligated reporters.
And again – I’m not doubting this psak, but to whom was it given? Rodef is a chiddush, but I certainly hear it. And for a Rodef, you are not allowed to punish; you are only allowed to prevent (even by killing him). If you can do it without the police, you must. Unfortunately, there really is no way without the police, accept for making our own hit squad. Which isn’t a bad idea.
Again, once we get our proof – by all means necessary.
And remember, we both want to protect our kids. I just don’t want witch trials.
In summary, until now, there has not been enough awareness, a lot of fear by Rabbonim (who are human) & communities, – but now as a community, we are smarter.
The police however, I have seen – individuals cases! with me own two eyes – free the guilty and prosecute the innocent.
I have seen a Rosh Yeshiva shake his head at me – “Yes , it’s true the Social Worker believes the girl, but I need more. Oy! I wish I could read minds!” and neither could I.
I want us to build the community resources to investigate to reasonable standard of proof that this person will strike again. If not, we are going to destroy the innocent – an equal crime. And if we are in doubt – we need to separate the accused from children, quietly, without harming him. Because we have no right if we are in doubt. Being a Moser is based on this point – that we cannot trust the government to be fair and honest. And experience has shown this. Not just the Duke trial.
An organization, which will post a person’s name & picture based on a single person hearsay is evil – not only because they have nor right to harm him, but because they destroy the credibility of other victims. If we give in to hysteria, NO ONE will cooperate. And then we are back where we started. Sechel, Halacha, and determination the whole way. It can be done. I am not going to send a Rebbe to sing sing to get **** for 10 to 15 years based on an unsubstantiated therapist approved child’s testimony. They lie. It’s a reality. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don’t.
A child’s testimony should start an investigation by professionals – again, get a real firm to do it, spend some money. But don’t call 911 unless you know it’s going to happen again.
And I believe that in 90% of cases -if not 95% – if you do a professional investigation, which requires merely money and expertise, not police assistance – you will find additional proof. Internet records. Other kids (not connected to the original victim). A history of accusations in a his previous employment. Profiling. But I need more; I don’t read minds.
And then, I would fully cooperate with the police. Until then – I’m sorry officer, I cannot get involved.November 1, 2010 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #711726Simcha16Member
1. We just got a fax from Torah Umesorah introducing a program called T.O.P.S. Topics on Personal Safety. Instructors are being trained to introduce this program into our elementary schools. his may be another tool to educate and empower the children to speak up.
2. A parent of a seven year old girl called with an allegation against a bus driver. We recommended that the parents contact the Jewish Board of Family Services in Boro Park. They have sensitive social workers and also have a special liaison in the police department.
3. Lasr year a parent said that a “Rabbi” stayed in their house. The two girls told their parents that he took them on his lap… They prosecuted and he is in jail and getting help. He was a known offender from another country, and yet he was allowed his freedom. The girls were traumatized and are getting counseling. They are very fearful and won’t go upstairs alone in their own home.
4. We need to be able to tell these children that he is locked up! When there is no doubt, the molester should be prosecuted to the fullest. It would be a deterrent to the “respectable” molesters if they were afraid of all the negative publicity and jail sentence.November 1, 2010 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #711727sof davar hakol nishmaMember
LBK, i don’t know if i got all the details correct, but i recently heard the story because there was a similar one that happened near my community pretty recently. there was a moser (someone who told on other people who were doing something not 100% correct. in the story that happened recently it was not that they were over halacha it was against the law) in R’ Elchonons time who had gotten a lot of people into trouble (to get himself out of longer imprisonment… something like that) such a person has a din, one should / is allowed to kill them. (in America we don’t suggest this…) R’ Elchonon was physically a very strong person, and this person was in the mikva i guess the same time as r’ elchonon, and R’ Elchonon drowned him. Please don’t take all the details as fact, i will look it up to verify. I don’t think it was to do with molesting. THe reason i brought the story was to parallel, that a moser can/should be killed and so does a molester.
popa bar abba – i am appalled at you! so you’re basically saying that every person who does something bad its because of some kind of psychological… something they went through? do you know there is something in this world called RISHUS. PLAIN AND SIMPLY – EVIL. We all have a Yetzer Hara. obviously somethings that people go through leave a mark on them but that they have to get over, they still have complete bechira. Your saying that most molestors were molested themselves??? and we shouldn’t judge them?
also , i think you should ask a real posek what the din of a molestor is before you jump to conclusions, and don’t believe that R’ Elyashiv Shlit”a said that. (notice i said posek, not rabbi, because anyone can be a “rabbi” not everyone can be a posek)November 1, 2010 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #711728
Ok. So what is the way that seems most correct based on our understanding?
I’m not advocating keeping them in their jobs. I’m fine with going to the police. I just don’t like the spirit of disgust and revulsion.
Like I said earlier; are you so sure it couldn’t be you.November 1, 2010 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #711729
Sof – The Gemara in Bava Basra says that a single man should not teach young children – because maybe he will come to –
It could happen to any of us. It’s not just evil. 80% of molesters were molested. As aries pointed out, one molesters breeds others.
This fact shouldn’t change our resolve in doing whatever is necessary to protect our kids.
This DIn of a molester? This is the first I’m hearing to this Psak; I certainly could hear it being true. Certainly if we’re talking about actualy rape. But even without that, Halachicly we are permitted to do Avid Inish Din L’Atzmay – when we cannot stop a person from doing any damage. The word Rodef halachically seems strong; lives are ruined, and the suicide rate is higher – but rodef? I could hear it, and that’s what we have Poskim for.November 1, 2010 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #711730
PBA- How could it be me, if I didn’t have the “bad experiences” as a child? Even if I chose to do evil, it wouldn’t work because I had a wonderful youth.
The right thing to do is to do a full and thorough investigation. No expense spared, no rocks left unturned. This is the way to uncover the truth (as best we humans can), if done by experts. So we need to bring in expertise on every case, or develop our own.
I’m not against a lynching for these menuvalim. I’m sorry if you are revolted by my revulsion. We all have taivos and opportunities, but only the scum of the earth take advantage of these opportunities at the expense of making another person (child!) a victim for life.November 1, 2010 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #711731
I don’t think I am promoting acting any differently than you are promoting. I don’t think we quite agree on their level of culpability, but I hope you’re at least willing to move past the “there are no excuses at all” mantra of some.
Now let’s find something else to bicker about. Like what to eat at Carlos and Gabby’s. I’d like to warn everyone that the one in Queens in under the Queens Vaad, so if you only eat the CRC from Brooklyn, I don’t know what you will do.November 1, 2010 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #711732
I don’t mind that you are appalled at me. I assume it is because your teacher yelled at you in third grade.
But really, I do think so. How do you know I’m wrong? Does it make sense that I’m wrong? Isn’t the difference between the murderer and the president where and how they grew up? It bothers me to think that also, but isn’t it true?November 1, 2010 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #711733
So squeak – you agree with me? Reliable internal investigation first, before we go to the DA? And develop the resources for such an investigation? Or hirer those who can – before the police?November 1, 2010 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #711734
Moq, you really sound like you are back in the dark ages. When was the last time you brought a case to the police department and this happened? I doubt it was in the past couple of years because Rabbonim would not have allowed you to do so. So no the things that you say do not hold water especially if you live in Brooklyn because the Brooklyn DA just did not prosecute because he was in the pocket of the Rabbonim of Brooklyn! So enough said. You concepts are old and no longer useful. Get into today’s world and what is really happening. We cannot count on Rabbonim to help us. WE can only count on professionals to protect our children and that is the end of the story. If a child has been molested in any way show the child that you are going to get the monster off the streets and locked up so that he can’t hurt them again or anyone else.
Let’s start cleaning up our communities of vile and viscous animals and once 10, 15, 50 pedophiles have been arrested and dealt with maybe, just maybe others will start taking us seriously and choose treatment over acting on their impulses and maybe just maybe the Agudah and other Rabbonoim and religious organizations will start removing known molesters from the school systems, shuls and other known haunts and assign them shomrim while forcing them into therapy and away from areas where they have easy prey.November 1, 2010 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #711736
Since RAV ELIASHEV’s PSAK is being discussed, here it is:
Kovetz Teshuvos 3:231:
Answer: [Yes]November 1, 2010 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #711737gavra_at_workParticipant
BT: Those are Israeli authorities/police, whose biases are well known.
Those in America would have to ask American Gedolim.November 1, 2010 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #711738
PBA- point is, I don’t give a rats blech about culpability. If an animal bites, it gets put down- and it is no less blameless than a human who does evil. I’m not interested in villifying the criminal, just in getting rid of him (or her- that happens too) effectively.
What do I think the level of blame is? Somewhat higher than a behema, but perhaps(!) less than 100%. Circumstances do lead to choices.
Moq- no, I do not believe in “internal investigation first”. But I am realistic- we are still living in shtetls. You and I will not convince the yeshivish velt that the government will “treat them fairly”. THEREFORE, I am willing to look the other way to our community’s tendency to treat due process as “the arm of the enemy state” – SO LONG AS they handle the situation satisfactorily.November 1, 2010 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #711739
Ben Torah, ah, but we are not talking about such cases as false allegations. Let’s talk about the most famous of cases in the Flatbush yeshiva for instance. There were more than one accusation. A beth din was convened and the parents of the children were threatened that they would be run out of town. The psak was given that if there was “no penetration” it was not molestation, and so on.
The children, yes more than one child, was sent for theapy to (I am not mentioning or the Mods might not post) and they were then molested again by the Therapist, yes again more than one child. This was a double whammy.
So in this case it would have proven his theory of tikun olam very clearly however these monsters, excuse me molesters are still being protected by Rabbonim, as are their accomplices to their crimes, and are still not behind bars even though the truth has already come out by more than one of their victims.
So what is your point? The more people like yourself and Moq keep arguing for the “sake of Torah” with all these false justifications the wheels will continue to turn as in the past and more and more children will continue to be victims, go OTD, commit suicide and we will lose generation after generation to our own evil holocaust.November 1, 2010 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #711740
Rav Eliashev gave the reason why it is prohibited to call the police under the circumstances. It is, quote:
“That is because it is possible that allegations are being made solely because of some bitterness the student has against his teacher or because of some unfounded fantasy.”
That is equally applicable in Haifa as in Paris.November 1, 2010 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #711741oomisParticipant
Poppa, I used to be the person who defended people who committed heinous crimes, with the PC idea that they were “misunderstood, brought up in a terrible home situtation, were abused while growing up, didn’t have the same advantages as I, blah blah blah…” There but for the grace of G-d…etc.
There comes a time when people must take responsibility for their actions. Jews in Europe often grew up in abject poverty, were physically abused by the Goyim; their mothers, daughters, and sisters were raped by the Cossaks, and NONE of us will ever be able to comprehend what unspeakable evil the Nazis, yemach shemam v’zichram, perpetrated on their bodies and souls. Did most, or even a large number, of Jews become perverts, murderers, sexual abusers, because of what they suffered? The excuse that any abusive person couldn’t help it because of his background, does not excuse his behavior.
My only issue vis a vis sexual predators, is that not everyone who is on the list of perverts, is necessarily a bona fide predator. Many young men who had a consenting physical relationship with their underage girlfriends (even 15 and a half is legally underage for a girl to consent), were arrested on statutory rape charges, and are listed as pedophiles, and I think that is wrong. If they were both the same age (15), the girl would not be charged for having a relationship with a minor, and that is a double-standard. Other than that, I say they deserve what they get.November 1, 2010 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #711742
Squeak, I honestly am not sure what you are saying. Could you elaborate or explain further?
Aries – I didn’t say Rabbonim. I know that didn’t work, as I said. I said we need to create an independent investigative organization, or quietly fund PI’s. We to have an army of educated and indepdent social workers/PIs/former law enforcement officails.
And true, I am referring to non-jews cases. And I am not referring to the tristate area. I am referring to things I have seen in OOT – and let me leave it at that. No, it’s not the dark ages. How long ago was the duke scandal?
And aries, you seem like one of the intelligent people here, who’s points and experience can speak for themselves. I don’t mind disagreeing with you, and I don’t mind being wrong – but I’d appreciate if you dropped your personal – somewhat insulting – tone. I care for these kids as much as you do, and have been involved in this sick field in the past. I think you are belittling your obvious experience and knowledge in this field with a tinge of hysteria. Please, the only way we’ll be able to build is through consensus, not through insulting anyone “who doesn’t get it”.
And aries, seriously, you haven’t seen innocent people get hurt? Come one. I have. I have seen – one person in particular – lose his marriage over this. And he was innocent, and vindicated in the end of the day. What good did it do him?
“Trust the professionals” – yes, we will probably get more molesters off the streets. And a lot of innocent people. And as R’ Elyashiv – quoted here, I’m going to look at it IYH – said, we have no right. None at all. We cannot trust the police.
That is a valid point though, that R’ Elyashiv did speak of the Israeli Police – they are notorious – 98% of criminal cases end up guilty or pled guilty in Israel. What would he say about America? I don’t know.November 1, 2010 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #711743
I don’t have good numbers on molesting. I’ll make numbers up.
What if 60% if molested became molesters? Would you say it is all bad choices?
If it’s 20%, isn’t it at least a strong contributing factor?
(Further imagining that the population at large has a say, 5% rate.)
Ok, Let’s say you are correct in this instance. Tell me, at what point would you say that the blame is mitigated.
If you say never, we have nothing to talk about. If you say any number, now we’re just negotiating.November 1, 2010 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #711744Elliot PasikMember
As a lawyer practicing in the field, a few more comments.
Some of the comments here are throwing out too many roadblocks to criminal prosecution. I’ve accompanied abuse victims to District Attorney offices in several counties here in the New York area, and I can relate that the process of prosecution is fair and very civilized. I’ve seen the DA and police question victims. The police and DAs are generally empathetic, trained, and highly educated people, and they’re doing a good job. Not a perfect job, but a good job, and let’s remember, Torah lo sh’bashamayim hi, the Torah wasn’t given to angels, we fallible mortals are to apply the Torah in our daily lives, including in the justice system. A US Supreme Court Justice once wrote, A defendant is entitled to a fair trial, not a perfect trial.
I would also add that false child abuse claims are very rare, especially in the age bracket of 6-7 through late teens. I don’t have the precise statistics in front of me, but about 95 percent
of children are telling the truth. The false claims in the past arise from situations where pre-school children have been coached by extremely zealous prosecution investigators; and also in custody battles. Here in the NY area, we’ve seen very, very few false child abuse claims in our frum community since the cases started happening the last few years.
Not believing children in the past has caused terrible results. Parents and children have therefore been discouraged from prosecuting, and the molesters continued inflicting damage.
I don’t believe we need to make a pilpul out of child molestation. When the typical case is the child relating that an adult did something strange to him, and the parent sees adverse behavioral changes (altered mood, poor school work, inappropriate conduct, bed wetting, etc.), you report the crime to the police.November 1, 2010 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #711745
If someone is a moser, but thinks he is doing the right thing, do we still kill him?November 1, 2010 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #711746
Mr. Pasik: You wouldn’t know what percent were false claims; only what percent were later proven false. Those false that resulted in a false conviction, your stats will still show as true.
Furthermore, the psak from Rav Eliashev is that it is ONLY permissible to report to the secular authorities after it has been 100% ascertained as factual.November 1, 2010 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #711747
i wouldnt know the Halachah
but i think he is being killed to remove a moser from this world
not to punish him for his evil intentions
although i would imagine that first it would be necessary to take all other possible steps towards a solution, such as trying to convince him that he is wrong.November 1, 2010 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #711748
What do you think about the culpability argument I’ve been representing?
(and what about this sentence?)November 1, 2010 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #711749
sorry popa i havent been paying close attention to the arguments hereNovember 1, 2010 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #711750vnishmartemmeodMember
Popa – how revolting.
I don’t care how “understanding” or not you and everyone is of a molester either because he was molested, or his wife is not available to him, or his yetzer hora is too strong WHATEVER… as long as the child is protected, whichever way, shape or form – with ZERO harrassment to the victim or his family – then go right ahead… do it your way.
Would you UNDERSTAND someone that STABBED you an inch of your life? (But he did grow up in terrible circumstances, no parents, drug use around him, gangs…)
As Elliot Pasik informs us above: Fact is, most CHILDREN (and this discussion IS about children) do NOT lie about this. When there is a situation where someone is suspected to have an axe to grind… and may have coached his child/ren to lie, I agree his rishus is right up there with a molester himself… it IS a form of abuse… SO let’s put that in a different category than our discussion here… totally different circumstances.November 1, 2010 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #711751
okay popa i reviewed your posts a bit
i think you have a bit of a point but i cant really agree
certainly there are strong influences in most cases that stimulate these people to commit these acts but that doesnt lessen (personally) my revulsion and disgust at the perpetrators as well as the acts themselves.
i may have some feelings of pity for them, if i let myself, but this does not lessen my revulsion, and instinct for revenge as well as justiceNovember 1, 2010 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #711752
Well, then what do you think about ignoring glares while driving?November 1, 2010 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #711753
but you wanted i suppose my logical evaluation of your argument.
i dont have anyNovember 1, 2010 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #711755
im still trying to figure that one out
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.