Moshe Rabbeinu criticizes 2 tribes for not wanting to fight for the Land

AAQ

the reason I employ the term ‘legally considered kidnappers’ is merely a reaction

a reaction to the tsunami of moralizing and smearing adjectives thrown in the direction of innocents

adjectives like ‘lawbreakers’ or ‘criminals’ or ‘dodgers’, which are misplaced.

full time learners , and haredim more generally, are a minority treated with disdain and derision

in a sea of powerful well-oiled secularism

not only haredim are treated with said disdain and derision –

settlers of the dati le’umi variety have the doubtful privilege to receive the same type of treatment in Israel ,

they are also a despised minority there , although the latest turn of the political wheels

made them temporarily forget their ‘special status’

the wheels in Israel turn very fast …
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yankel > is merely a reaction

thank you for looking into that and finding the reason. So, you start using vile language because some hilonim do the same. I don’t think there is a reshus for doing that. Chofetz Chaim writes about dangers of “cultural schools” of his time but he is not using vile language when describing their danger to the kids. but maybe you can look up his seforim and suggest the appropriate language.

> not only haredim are treated with said disdain and derision –

I understand what you are saying about anti-religious crowd … I heard here in NYC from people who witnessed those who brought food and tried to give it to people who went to shul on Yom Kippur … But there are nowadays, B’H, so many observant and stam traditional people who are not against religion per se. If you have disagreements with them, you should pay more attention to their positions and try to either change or explain yourself. I don’t see how you can riled up about such people if they are not happy with your community working less or not going to the army. You can disagree with them, but their positions is also legit. And you probably learned enough gemorahs and rambams that talk how a talmid chacham should behave so that others respect them.

@AAQ

Got news for you .

Majority of Knesset is of the same opinion as me .

They acted already .

They passed laws curtailing the SC’s illegal activities .

Which were illegally overturned by that very same SC.

Those illegal rulings by the SC were illegally enforced by thugs, paid by leftists , who virtually stopped everything.

And threatened to destroy the whole country if SC’s power is diminished in any way.

They were aided and abetted by the MSM and the corrupt judicial system .

So without any recourse , the Knesset was rendered practically powerless …..

Unbelievable – right ?

I couldn’t make it up …

These are the plain facts….

Follow the Israeli news , and its all there …..
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My imperfect understanding that politically the law was damaged by lack of results – while it proposed a path for charedim to integrate, that did not happen. That was a chance for some compromise, but I guess both sides decided to risk and press their advantage.
[aaq]
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Yes, I do agree that yours is an imperfect understanding , sorry about that.

The ONLY reason Tal law is not officially in force now – is the SC .

Nothing else.

They used non-existing authority to cancel it.

So it legally follows – that if cancellation is illegal – the law is legally still in force.
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Simple.
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@aaq

Never said their position was not a legitimate position as a private opinion within the Israeli State.

According to Israeli law they can advocate for this position , run for election , and attempt that their position should garner a majority and then pass it into law.

Totally within their rights acc to Israeli Law .

But to falsely label full time torah students as criminals , dodgers or fugitives etc , when SC’s cancellation of the Tal Law was done in an unauthorized and therefore illegal way , is beyond acceptable .

The people acting as enforcers of this illegal decision, are legally nothing more than kidnappers .

This is a plain legal issue , not a call to violence at all.

The SC cancelling Knesset’s law regulating the SC’s own authority is nothing more than one big farce. Even a ten year old sees through it.

This not “vile” ,

this is accurate.
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@AAQ
If you think they are violating some rules, then other parts of the system, like Knesset, should be able to override them …

Fully agreed.

They should be able to override …

You are not updated, seems like – they did override them , multiple times …

They canceled every law which they saw as touching their own authority . And that without any legal basis .

If that’s not illegal , then what is ?

you seem to be [sorry] ok with something called the ‘ostrich approach’

I rather hold of the following approach – First one gathers the facts and the figures , then one forms an opinion , accordingly.
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yankel > you seem to be [sorry] ok with

I am not ok with this. I am saying they are playing within a certain political system of rules. Political system depends on political will, especially when the system is not perfectly defined. Historical example from USA SC. Number of judges is not defined. When FDR started controversial reforms in 1930s and SC was vetoing them, he threatened to simply increase number of seats and appoint additional judges. This was undefined in the reasonably well-defined American system. It wolud have been de-stabilizing, as the next president would do the same and double number of judges again. There was political backlash, and FDR did not do that, but also SC changed their behavior.

Same thing here – if 60% of population would see SC actions as illegitimate, politicians would create a way to stop them. It is possible that voters do not care for the law and just want their side to have an advantage. That is an even bigger problem then with the civil society and you need to work to educate people about that. Calmly, with arguments, without shouting explain that healthy democracy requires a well-defined rule of law. Run candidates and advertisement that talk about that instead of demanding handouts for your group.

yankel, I am not sure why you start throwing insults all over, it obscures the points you are making and takes your mind off the points I am making.

A (modern) democracy does not mean that majority can always get their way. There are various mechanisms to keep the system stable despite the – often – ignorant and hot-headed majority. Courts are a natural anti-majority mechanism. In this case, you evidently need way larger consensus in the country than 51%. So, you need to think how to create such majority, partly by educating people, partly by modifying your position to include more of other groups. Presuming SC is occupying an extreme left-wing position, you should be able to unite 60-70% of people around some way of judicial reform that may look as insufficient to you, but moves the position enough to change the current situation. As I understand, there is actually a discussion of such ways in knesset.

yankel, again, a modern democratic system is not a (discredited, unstable) Athenian version where everyone votes on everything. It might consist of multiple centers of power, some elected, some appointed. These centers can, and are expected to, compete for power between each other. Look up literature on American theories of “separation of power”. Israeli system is probably less thought through than others as the founders had a lot of things on their hands; and it is also under stress all the time. So, there is no surprise that there is a stand-off based on unclearly defined rules (and lack of constitution).

The best way out of this situation is to formulate a solution that will be supported by a super-majority of population. Then, the politicians will find a way to change situation, whether legally or politically. Such a solution necessarily has to be a compromise, not necessarily giving you everything you want.

@aaq

I once was in your camp

I naively believed that left and right could live together in EY under a political compromise arrangement

based on democracy
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but reality is much stronger than wishful thinking

as events in the middle east painfully show again and again
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in all cases of conflict between reality and wishful thinking

it is reality which wins , hands down …
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you yourself admitted that you do not follow the realities in Israel closely

am wondering – after this honest self assessment, why do you think you are qualified

to have a valid opinion without being acquainted with the relevant reality ?

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the left , left no possibility for any rules based compromise …

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yankel > where the haredim overall are prepared to work together with the majority to hammer out a compromise but in reality [!], which is the only factor which really counts …

so, maybe you can clarify what are your suggestions for the compromise? And presume that it has to be a verifiable compromise. That is, if, say compromise is that those who learn f/t are exempt and others are not, then there will be checks like fingerprinting at the yeshiva entrances, random attendance checks, learning tests by non-charedi rabbis, restrictions on travel to Uman, etc.

@AAQ

There is no comparison whatsoever between the legal behaviour of the USA SC on one hand and the Israeli SC on the other.

The US SC recognizes that their power is derived from the People , the Peoples representatives and the Constitution.

The Israeli SC on the other hand, sees itself as its own source of power. It sees itself as not needing the people , nor a constitution , nor the law , as a source of power.

Rather, it sees itself sufficiently ‘enlightened’ , to tell the citizens of the Nation :

what they ought to think ,
how they ought to legislate , and
who they ought to appoint to the bench.

If you follow the news over the last 30 years, this is blatant .

The democracy index of the Economist is totally meaningless to me.

I am b’h granted by the One above with reading and thinking abilities and I don’t see any need to outsource them .

For sure not to some elitist lefty institution.

Which thrives on naive people like you [sorry] who take them seriously ….
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your suggestion re building ‘big coalitions’ is as naive as your other suggestions and not based on hard reality at all
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as you may remember – in any conflict between hard reality and wishful thinking

who wins – hands down ??
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@AAQ

your call to restore ‘trust’ , is another sign of naivete and [sorry again] lack of comprehension of israeli mentality

remember – hard reality is the master – nothing else

first we should acknowledge reality , internalize it , and only then …. form opinions ….

israeli mentality and practice are essential part of said reality

ignore them at your own peril …
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many religious sefaradim ignored said reality during their first generations’ sojourn in EY

they mistakenly thought that reality consists of not much more than wishful thinking

they only realized their mistake when it was too late …
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with

> A] Non haredi rabbis have no business at all stepping into haredi institutions , let alone administering tests …

This is another feature that I see throughout charedi culture – resistance to any kind of transparency. I understand that it worked 300 years ago and we had shtadlanim who quietly pressed our case. But in our days, resisting any kind of objective measures creates an impression that there is also lack of honesty.

Again, bringing a US example so that we can see that this is not Israel specific – NY yeshovos are accused of subpar teaching of general studies and the response is – look at these ones with good studies and look at Mr X who is an accountant. I am yet to see someone showing here are Regents exams and here is percentage of our students that pass comparing with others. Would have been a simple argument to make.

@AAQ

just as a continuation of previous post

It was the elected parliament who voted for the tal law

and it was the unelected clique which canceled it …
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@AAQ

to your uninformed eye … I fully agree here ….

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would like to take the opportunity to ‘inform’ you here of some simple facts

the exact same system and the exact same lack of constitution was the case for the first half of a century of the medina’s existence

the same ‘lack of stability’ by the voter was the case then , and the exact same mechanism was in force then , and nevertheless

for 5 long decades the elected politicians legislated , ruled , compromised and were accountable to the voter at regular intervals , while the unelected courts applied the laws , using the power granted them by the elected politicians .

the courts recognized where their power originated from and acted only within their legal power.

for the last 30 years , the courts like the proverbial golem which was kam al yotsro , slowly but surely kept on advancing outside their legal mandate until the present situation where they and their judicial lackeys ILLEGALLY interfere in all aspects of the other two branches, with the courts even canceling the laws regulating … the courts !!!!!

all the arguments you bring were equally valid over 5 long decades too, and still all functioned well .

those arguments are clearly and totally insufficient to explain the courts illegal behaviour over the last 30 years

this is an illegal, immoral and unaccountable clique which should be driven from their self appropriated positions the sooner the better.
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AAQ

you misunderstand my point

this expansion of self appropriated power by the SC, not authorized by the sovereign , is clearly illegal

there are no two ways about it

if they overstep their authority they are illegal

if they act within their authority they are legal

all talk about coalitions and comparisons to other systems is nothing more than irrelevant hot air

the current draft is based on this very same expansion of self appropriated power by the SC, not authorized by the sovereign

so the current draft is plainly illegal

basic reasoning , based on cold reality

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now , how to deal with said reality ….

sorry again , but naive unrealistic nice sounding slogans are not going to help one iota …..

this boils down to a battle of wills

with the necessary syata dishmaya and required mesirut nefesh the battle will be won .

there is no other realistic option .
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