Moshe Rabbeinu criticizes 2 tribes for not wanting to fight for the Land

YYA > Any meaningful efforts to change the IDF to an extent that would genuinely meet Chareidi standards

I don’t think you’ll gain understanding from other sectors when this continues like your community is an outside entity that needs to be wooed. If you can start with the premise that a country needs an Army, and everyone should work towards the strength of the country (see thread title), you can then have specific discussions. Can you organize some services that can work in current environment? Any specialties that do not require inappropriate situations? Can charedim be involved in cybersecurity? man radar installations? drive trucks? fly airplanes? State specific conditions you want and, if not possible, let the other side say that they insist that one of the F-16 pilots has to be a girl.

ZZSK > Shas and the Gerrer Rebbe hold

From outside, it seems that Shas is always trying to be both Chareidi and Sephardi. Whenever Ashkenazi Charedim are announcing leaving government or such, Shas is kind of following to make sure “they are also charedim” but their heart is not there. Not randomly, right after 12-day war start, the first news out was that Shas was informed and stopped politics. Later on, I think, it turned out that Ashkenazi politicians were also in the loop, but did not have a need to advertise it.

AAQ – I don’t think you’ll gain understanding from other sectors when this continues like your community is an outside entity that needs to be wooed.

The bottom line is, our job is to serve Hashem on His terms, as defined in the Torah, as taught by גדולי הדורות חכמי התורה. That’s where it starts, and that’s where it ends. That is the definition of the Jewish People, that Hashem miraculously kept going through the millennia. The fact that about a century ago some people came along and decided they want to create עם חדש בארצו on their terms, and a few decades later they seemed to get their wish and called themselves ‘Israelis’, has nothing to do with us. We ARE an outside entity, because we define our national identity and covenant in completely different terms. We were here first, and we will be here last. How exactly that will work out is Hashem’s business. Our job is to keep the Torah = listen to the גדולי הדור. If you don’t like that, you can live your life how you see fit, I have no ability or desire to tell anyone what to do. The מצב בשטח, as they say here, is that most of the PEOPLE of Israel are much closer to Yiddishkeit than the STATE and its institutions are. I am involved in Kiruv on a number of levels, and I see it every day. But even in Kiruv, our job is to GIVE OVER the Torah, as we got it, and not to DEFEND it on whatever terms happen to be in style today. When you do it that way, and you are sincere about it in your own life, then people respect that, even if they aren’t perfectly comfortable with your position on every issue.

YYA> our job is to GIVE OVER the Torah, as we got it, and not to DEFEND it on whatever terms happen to be in style today. When you do it that way, and you are sincere about it in your own life, then people respect that, even if they aren’t perfectly comfortable with your position on every issue.

This is beautifully said. I don’t think we should not defend positions when this becomes possible. There is a story about R Salanter who encounter a free-thinker in an inn. He suggested to have a debate and the loser will take off his jacket (conservative v modern) and wear the other one. They sat down and R Salanter took off his jacket, preparing to either win or lose. His opponent refused to take his jacket off. The R Salanter refused to have an argument with someone who is not prepared to fight till they find emes … on the other hand, maybe you mean the other saying of R Salanter: you should always advocate for Yiddishkeit, sometimes even with words …

@YYA:

1) No disagreement about the HCJ. We have a certain former Justice Aharon Barak (that is someone that terms such as “Yemach Shemo” and “Shem Reshaim Yirkav” could be used in association with, even though I wish him a long life to 120 years) to thank for that.
2) I was focusing on the legal definition.
3a) That is the Charedi position. That is not the RZ position.
3b) Obviously.
4) I did agree and I don’t deny it.
5) I share your lack of optimism toward the HCJ and IDF compromising. However, I will point out that AAQ is right about something: The IDF should not have to convince Charedim to serve. They should just me showing to serve like everyone else because it is the law.
6) I have no problem with discussing the politics, which absolutely plays a role in this issue. The broad consensus you speak of is within the Charedi community and certain parts of the RZ community. It is not aross the board.
7-8) No disagreement.
9) The IDF doesn’t want נוער הגבעות because the brass doesn’t trust them (they also tend to engage in criminal activity, specifically arson and destruction of property). Regarding everyone else, the games should stop.

Just to be clear – again: I disagree with the Charedi Tzibbur on issues associated with the State, but most of those issues (Hallel on Israeli holidays, prayer for the state, IDF, captives/hostages) are relatively minor – with the exception of IDF service (which I have mixed feelings about). But I am of the position that it is the law that everyone is to serve and Charedim do not have the right to exempt themselves based on ideological arguments no one is accepting outside certain parts of the RZ Tzibbur and the Charedi Tzibbur.

@Yankel: They’re supposedly deferring, but in reality they are deferring until they are too old to serve – which is de facto draft dodging. Let’s be honest, Charedim want a blanket exmeption enshrined in law.

@AAQ:
Shas at its core is a social justice party dressed up in Sephardic clothing. It is also decidedly Charedi – or possibly non-Zionist Sephardic, but it is far more focused on social justice issues that Charedi issues.