Moshe Rabbeinu criticizes 2 tribes for not wanting to fight for the Land

YYA > Any meaningful efforts to change the IDF to an extent that would genuinely meet Chareidi standards

I don’t think you’ll gain understanding from other sectors when this continues like your community is an outside entity that needs to be wooed. If you can start with the premise that a country needs an Army, and everyone should work towards the strength of the country (see thread title), you can then have specific discussions. Can you organize some services that can work in current environment? Any specialties that do not require inappropriate situations? Can charedim be involved in cybersecurity? man radar installations? drive trucks? fly airplanes? State specific conditions you want and, if not possible, let the other side say that they insist that one of the F-16 pilots has to be a girl.

ZZSK > Shas and the Gerrer Rebbe hold

From outside, it seems that Shas is always trying to be both Chareidi and Sephardi. Whenever Ashkenazi Charedim are announcing leaving government or such, Shas is kind of following to make sure “they are also charedim” but their heart is not there. Not randomly, right after 12-day war start, the first news out was that Shas was informed and stopped politics. Later on, I think, it turned out that Ashkenazi politicians were also in the loop, but did not have a need to advertise it.

AAQ – I don’t think you’ll gain understanding from other sectors when this continues like your community is an outside entity that needs to be wooed.

The bottom line is, our job is to serve Hashem on His terms, as defined in the Torah, as taught by גדולי הדורות חכמי התורה. That’s where it starts, and that’s where it ends. That is the definition of the Jewish People, that Hashem miraculously kept going through the millennia. The fact that about a century ago some people came along and decided they want to create עם חדש בארצו on their terms, and a few decades later they seemed to get their wish and called themselves ‘Israelis’, has nothing to do with us. We ARE an outside entity, because we define our national identity and covenant in completely different terms. We were here first, and we will be here last. How exactly that will work out is Hashem’s business. Our job is to keep the Torah = listen to the גדולי הדור. If you don’t like that, you can live your life how you see fit, I have no ability or desire to tell anyone what to do. The מצב בשטח, as they say here, is that most of the PEOPLE of Israel are much closer to Yiddishkeit than the STATE and its institutions are. I am involved in Kiruv on a number of levels, and I see it every day. But even in Kiruv, our job is to GIVE OVER the Torah, as we got it, and not to DEFEND it on whatever terms happen to be in style today. When you do it that way, and you are sincere about it in your own life, then people respect that, even if they aren’t perfectly comfortable with your position on every issue.

YYA> our job is to GIVE OVER the Torah, as we got it, and not to DEFEND it on whatever terms happen to be in style today. When you do it that way, and you are sincere about it in your own life, then people respect that, even if they aren’t perfectly comfortable with your position on every issue.

This is beautifully said. I don’t think we should not defend positions when this becomes possible. There is a story about R Salanter who encounter a free-thinker in an inn. He suggested to have a debate and the loser will take off his jacket (conservative v modern) and wear the other one. They sat down and R Salanter took off his jacket, preparing to either win or lose. His opponent refused to take his jacket off. The R Salanter refused to have an argument with someone who is not prepared to fight till they find emes … on the other hand, maybe you mean the other saying of R Salanter: you should always advocate for Yiddishkeit, sometimes even with words …

@YYA:

1) No disagreement about the HCJ. We have a certain former Justice Aharon Barak (that is someone that terms such as “Yemach Shemo” and “Shem Reshaim Yirkav” could be used in association with, even though I wish him a long life to 120 years) to thank for that.
2) I was focusing on the legal definition.
3a) That is the Charedi position. That is not the RZ position.
3b) Obviously.
4) I did agree and I don’t deny it.
5) I share your lack of optimism toward the HCJ and IDF compromising. However, I will point out that AAQ is right about something: The IDF should not have to convince Charedim to serve. They should just me showing to serve like everyone else because it is the law.
6) I have no problem with discussing the politics, which absolutely plays a role in this issue. The broad consensus you speak of is within the Charedi community and certain parts of the RZ community. It is not aross the board.
7-8) No disagreement.
9) The IDF doesn’t want נוער הגבעות because the brass doesn’t trust them (they also tend to engage in criminal activity, specifically arson and destruction of property). Regarding everyone else, the games should stop.

Just to be clear – again: I disagree with the Charedi Tzibbur on issues associated with the State, but most of those issues (Hallel on Israeli holidays, prayer for the state, IDF, captives/hostages) are relatively minor – with the exception of IDF service (which I have mixed feelings about). But I am of the position that it is the law that everyone is to serve and Charedim do not have the right to exempt themselves based on ideological arguments no one is accepting outside certain parts of the RZ Tzibbur and the Charedi Tzibbur.

@Yankel: They’re supposedly deferring, but in reality they are deferring until they are too old to serve – which is de facto draft dodging. Let’s be honest, Charedim want a blanket exmeption enshrined in law.

@AAQ:
Shas at its core is a social justice party dressed up in Sephardic clothing. It is also decidedly Charedi – or possibly non-Zionist Sephardic, but it is far more focused on social justice issues that Charedi issues.

@zsk

the israeli’s murdered one and half million unborn babies of their own since the medina’s founding .
the haredim did bh not murder their own babies , but worked hard to raise them even when stricken with poverty , at great mesirut nefesh, while the israeli’s feasted.
had the israeli’s not murdered , had the israeli’s not feasted , they would have plenty of manpower.
now, when the israeli’s claim that haredim do not carry ‘the burden’ … it rings a bit hollow to me ….

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the israeli’s came and initiated wars with the arabs in order to establish their medina , they did not come and ask the haredim what they think .
they created facts on the ground on their own .
do they have the moral right to accuse haredim of neglecting to ‘carry the burden’ ?
I doubt they do ….

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I have seen those deferring and their lifestyle from close up. they live on practically nothing , they live with nothing , rear their children to be happy with nothing and their youth grows up totally crime free .
for example , bnei brak a city of close to 200.000 people did not have a police station for many long decades .
israel’s justice system did not have to deal with haredi violent criminals since the states founding
are there some social imbalances resulting from the coerced army melting pot ? yes
is the system perfect ? no
can we accuse those mesirut nefesh people of neglecting to ‘carry the burden’ ? has veshalom .
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yankel > the word unelected here means that the SC do not derive their power directly from the people
> only from the law , which in turn derives its power from the people
> since the state of Israel was founded as a democracy

Direct democracy was practiced in Athens where citizens were voting on all issues and that fell up pretty quickly. Most modern countries have various mechanisms that limit voter participation. Courts are part of that – as well as of Torah law. This is not a problem in itself. I agree that unelected parts of the government should be limited in how far they can go. Many such systems have some flaws or undefined areas that lead to disputes. As Israeli law is mix up of Turkish, British, Jewish legal systems and was not built by philosophers or Talmudists, the fact that there are flaws is not surprising.

If you are right and they are not “legitimate” then the system will work it out – Knesset will vote for ignoring them or write an explicit rule that defines what courts can do. But at the end, it will come to public opinion – if it supports certain actions, politicians will find a way to deal with that.

@ZSK

zsk is sidestepping ,

read his non answer.

thank you.

ZSK – I’m not going to get into what Israel has done in terms of aborting babies. That quite frankly has nothing to do with it.

Sure it does… ואכמ״ל

ZSK – IDF service is a government policy and legal issue.

So was the Cantonist decree or any other גזרות שמד.

ZSK – Charedim are in the govermnent and play a major role, therefore the policy and law concerns them.

They are there, and they can leave. The Kanoyim are still here after 77 years of not being in the government or taking money from them. If they call their bluff, there won’t be anything remaining for the Left to leverage.

ZSK – I lived in Bnei Brak for several years and also saw their lifestyle close up. What I saw was clearly very different from what you saw.

ממה נפשך, if they are for real, they will listen to the גדולי תורה. If not ח״ו, they will have an opportunity to choose. I also have seen a lot in almost 30 years of living in Israel, though I don’t agree with your assessment. My gut feeling is that when push comes to shove more are for real than you think. (I also think that the real loser of this מצב will be the AG/Bagatz Junta, becaus more ‘Chilonim’ are מאמינים than many here think, and civil war ר״ל is not an option for anyone.)

AAQ – If you are right and they are not “legitimate” then the system will work it out – Knesset will vote for ignoring them or write an explicit rule that defines what courts can do. But at the end, it will come to public opinion – if it supports certain actions, politicians will find a way to deal with that.

That should be true, except it isn’t… The small and vocal Leftist minority has a stranglehold on the Israeli economy, media, upper Army brass, and of course the judiciary itself… Even Bibi can’t stop them. Have you been following local news here for the last three years?

By the way, when we talk about sharing the burden, what about the burden of raising the next generation of כלל ישראל, or even just maintaining a large enough Jewish majority in Israel? Why isn’t that very real burden, which is MORE necessary for survival than even the IDF, also something that needs to be shared? And if the Chilonim (and some, not all, MO/RZ) don’t want to share the burden, they should at least be more appreciative of those who do serve…

@YYA – I responded to you and Yankel but the mods appear to have blocked the post. I’m not really sure why.

Suffice it to say that I partially disagree and partially agree.

ZSK – Very hard to predict when the moderation will release any given comment. This results in comments apparently being posted out of sequence.

ZSK – “IDF service is a government policy and legal issue.”

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Small but important fact reminder :

1] Before the SC in Israel overstepped its mandate given by the Knesset, and illegally cancelled the 50-year-old authority of Israel’s successive Ministers of Defense , there was a fully working arrangement , whereby only fulltime learners were deferring on a yearly basis and non fulltime learners enlisted , haredi or otherwise.

Just because the SC illegally cancelled this working compromise , that does not mean that haredim are legally obligated to follow suit.
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2] Before the unelected SC in Israel overstepped its mandate given by the Knesset, and illegally cancelled the Tal Law, which was duly passed by a 51 – 41 vote in the elected Knesset [the only legal sovereign of the State] , there was a law on the books , whereby only fulltime learners were deferring on a yearly basis and non fulltime learners enlisted , haredi or otherwise.

The SC never received the power to cancel any laws, in any way shape or form , not from the Knesset nor from the Israeli voter.

Just because the SC illegally cancelled this law , that does not mean that haredim are legally obligated to follow suit.

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Not sure, what is the right thread, but I’d like to bring some halachik sources to support the idea that a religious community should behave so that other Jews – and non-Jews – be favorable to them.

Rambam sefer hamtzvos, neg 63:
category of hillul Hashem: a person known for his high level, who performs an act that regular people (hahamon) perceive as an aveira, … even though his action is mutar, it is hillul Hashem.

also hilchos Yesodei Torah 5:11 adam gadol in Torah … and hasidut that briyut (this includes non-Jews, I presume) is suspicious, even if it is not an aveirah, it is hillul Hashem.

I understand this establishes a requirement to behave in a way that normal people outside of your community see your behavior as yashar. For example, maybe run and establish a verifiable system with fingerprinting and cameras so that people could see how long bochurim are learning. Maybe even make them hear some learning, that would not hurt too!

@ZSK

the whole draft is blatantly illegal

something which ALL of Israel’s defense ministers accepted (and were still accepting [!]) for fifty[!] years, was illegally overturned at the whim of seven [extreme left merets voting] individuals nicknamed judges.
who are selected via a clearly corrupted ‘friend brings friend’ process

something which was accepted after three separate readings in an extended outdrawn process in Israel’s sole existing elected national body by a clear majority, exactly like all other laws in Israel’s law book, was illegally overturned a second time, by the same seven crooks and criminals

crooks and criminals , because they continuously subvert [note the present tense] their power illegally extending it far beyond its true legal power , going on from 1990 and onwards

to the extent that most major decisions are now taken by them themselves , leaving the executive and legislative branches to make the minor decisions , and very importantly, clean up the mess and face the voter’s anger all by themselves.

huge power they grabbed for themselves , with zero responsibility.

much like the ‘supreme’ leader in another country , who ,unelected , makes most major decisions and leaves it to the elected president , to make the minor decisions , then clean up the mess and face the voter’s anger , all by himself.

that country is often in the news and is well known as a bastion of true authoritarianism , as Iran is known for.

to quote as aaq does , this evil institution, or any of the repercussions of its rulings, as any indication of the legality or otherwise of draft ‘dodgers’ , is nothing more than one big farce.

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yankel> something which ALL of Israel’s defense ministers accepted (and were still accepting [!]) for fifty[!] years, was illegally overturned at the whim of seven [extreme left merets voting] individuals nicknamed judges.

You are talking about political acceptance. Israeli system has very little of stable laws that need a super-majority to overcome, like US does. So, by definition, political process can change things. Ben Gurion cannot obligate government 80 years later. BUt it can influence political debate. So, if you behave in a way that inspires other people to support your position, then your position will eventually become the law of the land. SC will not be able to stand in the way against 70-80 votes in the Knesset.

You should also study what happened under Tal law. My uneducated impression is that this was a compromise solution that had good intension of gradually bring some of the charedi community into the Army. It did not produce the result. I can’t tell whose fault is greater – army not being accepting enough, or charedim not intending to comply. But it ended in a failure and lead to backlash. And here we are.

@zsk

you are entitled to your opinion – but that does not make the current draft any more legal ….

from a strictly legal point of view – those enforcing the draft, are kidnappers and should be treated as such .
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This is my final post here for a while because this is admittedly a pointless argument and one I am no longer willing to engage in.

@Yankel:

This is not an opinion. From a stricly legal persepctive, the draft is completely legal.

The 1949 Defense Service Law, which predates the now unconstitutional 2002 Tal Law (and by extension the Torato Umanuto Arrangement) by at least 50 years, requires military service of all Israelis. It does not differentiate between Charedim and everyone else. Yes, there was an “agreement/arragement” not to draft Charedim, but an agreement not ensconced in binding law passed by the Knesset is quite frankly worthless. This is the case right now. There is no permanent legislation granting Charedim full, permanent exemption from the IDF service.

From the law on the Knesset website:

“In this Law-
“defence service” means
(a) service in the Regular Forces of the Defence Army of Israel (hereinafter: ‘regular service”);
(b) service in the Reserve Forces of the Defence Army of Israel (hereinafter: reserve service”);
“ordinary resident” means a person whose ordinary place of residence within the territory in which the law of the State of Israel applies;
“person of military age” means an ordinary resident of an age as specified hereunder:
“(a) in the case of a male person – any age from eighteen to forty-nine years inclusive;
(b) in the case of a female person- any age from eighteen to thirty-four years inclusive.

The exemptions are:
(1) the mother of a child;
(2) a pregnant woman.
(c) A married woman shall be exempt from the obligations of regular service.
(d) A female person of military age who has declared that reasons of conscience or religious conviction prevent her from serving on defence service, shall, in such manner as shall be prescribed by regulations, be exempted from the obligations of defence service”.

The punishment for draft-dodging, per the law is, “imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or to a fine not exceeding six hundred pounds or to both such penalties”.

Thus, Charedim are not exempt from service. Yeshiva students are not exempt from service. Hesderniks are not exempt. By law, the only groups with valid exemptions are those with medical conditions (including psychological and psychiatric), Olim and women (Sections 11 and 6 of the law). Based on this law which does in fact remain in effect, IDF service enforcement is not kidnapping. It is arresting those in violation of the law and those violators should be required to serve or produce a valid exemption in order to not serve.

Now, as for the so-called Tal Law: That law was declared discriminatory in 2005/2006, again in 2012 and most recently in 2017, whereupon it was essentially declared unconstitutional. It is a piece of legislation no longer relevant despite what you and I think about the HCJ and their technical ability to declare laws unconstitutional.

There isn’t much else to say about this.

Be well.

zsk states that he is of the opinion that full time learners should be drafted

but has not shown any reason why those who don’t, are acting against the law

and why those who enforce it should not be legally considered kidnappers.
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@aaq

just the opposite .

am not wearing any political hat at all

am writing with a purely legal hat on my head.

unauthorized decisions , overstepping their legal mandate , are legally null and void

their legal authority derives from the elected knesset only

they never received the authority to infringe on the legislative and executive branches ,

not from the knesset , and not from any other elected representative body

so using simple logic , in a strictly legal sense, their decisions are null and void , and

are to be considered as if they legally never happened

which leads us to the simple legal – not political- conclusion that those enforcing the draft are

legally to be considered ‘kidnappers’ , nothing less.
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those who are not happy with this legal arrangement have the option

to run for seats in the knesset and attempt to find a legal majority to change this

they had this option for the last 80 years in all of Israel’s elections and …

they have never changed the law

besides for the ‘tal law’ which was

again , ILLEGALLY cancelled
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yankel> there is no source whatsoever for the court to cancel any law

if this is true, then nothing stops the knesset from ignoring them. (As some US president said during a similar confrontation with the US SC – now, let them enforce it). Apparently, Israeli laws are not that clear cut AND/OR there is no political will for the government to override the SC. That is how political systems work. Maybe this system is not perfect, and – after this experience – there will be a “judicial reform”. But, generally speaking, this is how modern democracies work – they develop a system of rules and players that contradict each other. The goal is, following Pirkei Avos, to simply not allow people from swallowing each other alive, but use peaceful arguments to resolve the issues. So, just work within the existing system, try to improve it, but don’t make accusations that delegitimize the other side and even hint on violence. Especially, if you are trying to represent a Torah-based view. We can’t use vile language.

Re: constitution. There are democratic countries with and without constitution. So, you can’t say one way or another. I do think that it helps. Constitution is not adding legitimacy to the legal system, it simply adds stability – it usually requires a bigger effort to change constitution than regular laws. In US, it is quite extreme – not only supermajorities in congress but also supermajority of states. In Russia, on the other hand, Putin can change constitution to adjust election rules any way he wants to.

yankel, stop blaming “thugs” and biden admin, O’H. It is a feature of democracy that people advocate for their positions. Focus on making your point to other Israelis. One lesson frmo American politics – try to unite many groups, don’t stand by narrow interest of your minority. If unite all religious Jews in Israel, together with “traditionals” and you show some respect to pthers, you will be stronger than SC.

AAQ

Israel is not America .

To use American tactics in Israel is naive and therefore dangerous .

You will be taken for a ride .

As experience has amply shown.
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yankel> no one was ever hinting at any violence

I mean this language “legally considered kidnappers”. There are people who might understand this as a call for violence. I would not use that.

> SC’s annulment of the Tal law was made under false pretenses of so called ‘equality’

My imperfect understanding that politically the law was damaged by lack of results – while it proposed a path for charedim to integrate, that did not happen. That was a chance for some compromise, but I guess both sides decided to risk and press their advantage.

The rest of your “legal” analysis is just an opinion. You might be right in your suggestion that SC is not consistent – now, you just need to have the rest of the country on your side. You are talking like a person who was stopped by police for speeding and you are saying – I know I can prove that I was not speeding, so I don’t have to pay. No, you don’t have to pay if you submit your arguments to a judge and he approves them.

So, just ask yourself – why most non-charedim seem not to be on your side? and what do you need to do to change that?