Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › Moshe Rabbeinu criticizes 2 tribes for not wanting to fight for the Land
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August 5, 2025 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #2434301Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
yankel > draft for haredim was duly legislated and appeared on the books . It was the unelected SC which illegally nullified this law. There have no legal power to nullify laws. Which created the current anarchy.
Just be careful. Israeli legal system appears to be incomplete. So, it might be unclear how to resolve what SC can or cannot do. I don’t know the right answer, but Israeli politicians will go through the motions and come to some conclusions. It might be: “SC made an opinion, ow let them enforce it”. If this works, that means this is what the system was built for.
I am more familiar with US that has a little better defined structure, but still there are “unwritten” agreements that sometimes fall apart: senate filibuster, packing supreme court, state rights to secede … a typical solution for such issues is the strength of public opinion: FDR did not pack the court because it would not be supported. So, if overwhelming part of population will be for or against SC, that will be the result.
The worst solution, H’V, is when force or anarchy comes in. The whole goal of democracy is to prevent that.
And this might be the point to ponder: the goal of democracy is to resolve issues according to some fixed rules without getting to physical fights or breakups. It does not have to be best solution and it does not have to be the one supported by > 50% of population. As long as the system overall is supported by the population, this should be enough. As of now, it seems that SC role is seen opposite from opposite camps, and this is the source of political instability.
August 5, 2025 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #2434304Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantYYA > Any meaningful efforts to change the IDF to an extent that would genuinely meet Chareidi standards
I don’t think you’ll gain understanding from other sectors when this continues like your community is an outside entity that needs to be wooed. If you can start with the premise that a country needs an Army, and everyone should work towards the strength of the country (see thread title), you can then have specific discussions. Can you organize some services that can work in current environment? Any specialties that do not require inappropriate situations? Can charedim be involved in cybersecurity? man radar installations? drive trucks? fly airplanes? State specific conditions you want and, if not possible, let the other side say that they insist that one of the F-16 pilots has to be a girl.
August 5, 2025 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #2434308Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantI wonder why bnei Reuven and bnei Gad did not suggest to Moshe Rabbeinu – we will stay here and learn 24/7?! This is what malach says to Yehoshua – you are gonna be killed because you don’t learn at night. Would it be handy to point out to the yeshivos of Reuven & Gad?!
Granted, Simcha Bunim of Peshischa suggests that they stay to be close to their Rebbe – Moshe, and the kevurah.
August 5, 2025 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #2434312Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantZZSK > Shas and the Gerrer Rebbe hold
From outside, it seems that Shas is always trying to be both Chareidi and Sephardi. Whenever Ashkenazi Charedim are announcing leaving government or such, Shas is kind of following to make sure “they are also charedim” but their heart is not there. Not randomly, right after 12-day war start, the first news out was that Shas was informed and stopped politics. Later on, I think, it turned out that Ashkenazi politicians were also in the loop, but did not have a need to advertise it.
August 7, 2025 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #2435118yankel berelParticipant@aaq
I repeat :
draft for haredim was duly legislated and appeared on the books . It was the unelected SC which illegally nullified this law. There have no legal power to nullify laws. Which created the current anarchy.
It is clear that the SC has no legal power , not deriving from a constitution , not from any vote in the knesset , to invalidate any law .
I challenge anyone to find any source from any law or decision in the knesset that SC is empowered to invalidate a law , voted on by a majority in the knesset .
The SC illegally arrogated this power for themselves.
Bottom line – the Tal law is still in force . So, according to Israeli law, bney yeshiva are legally deferring their service.
Period.
.
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.August 7, 2025 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #2435181Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ – I don’t think you’ll gain understanding from other sectors when this continues like your community is an outside entity that needs to be wooed.
The bottom line is, our job is to serve Hashem on His terms, as defined in the Torah, as taught by גדולי הדורות חכמי התורה. That’s where it starts, and that’s where it ends. That is the definition of the Jewish People, that Hashem miraculously kept going through the millennia. The fact that about a century ago some people came along and decided they want to create עם חדש בארצו on their terms, and a few decades later they seemed to get their wish and called themselves ‘Israelis’, has nothing to do with us. We ARE an outside entity, because we define our national identity and covenant in completely different terms. We were here first, and we will be here last. How exactly that will work out is Hashem’s business. Our job is to keep the Torah = listen to the גדולי הדור. If you don’t like that, you can live your life how you see fit, I have no ability or desire to tell anyone what to do. The מצב בשטח, as they say here, is that most of the PEOPLE of Israel are much closer to Yiddishkeit than the STATE and its institutions are. I am involved in Kiruv on a number of levels, and I see it every day. But even in Kiruv, our job is to GIVE OVER the Torah, as we got it, and not to DEFEND it on whatever terms happen to be in style today. When you do it that way, and you are sincere about it in your own life, then people respect that, even if they aren’t perfectly comfortable with your position on every issue.
August 8, 2025 10:06 am at 10:06 am #2435575Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantyankel > It was the unelected SC which illegally nullified this law. There have no legal power to nullify laws.
Notice your language is loaded – “unelected SC”. SC is a legal structure. Unelected is part of taht structure. I don’t take positions here. If they have “no legal power” that really means that at the end of the political process, they’ll lose. Israeli law is an amalgam of multiple legal traditions, so there might be things that allow different interpretation. Hopefully, it will done while keeping shalom between people.
August 8, 2025 10:06 am at 10:06 am #2435579Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantYYA> our job is to GIVE OVER the Torah, as we got it, and not to DEFEND it on whatever terms happen to be in style today. When you do it that way, and you are sincere about it in your own life, then people respect that, even if they aren’t perfectly comfortable with your position on every issue.
This is beautifully said. I don’t think we should not defend positions when this becomes possible. There is a story about R Salanter who encounter a free-thinker in an inn. He suggested to have a debate and the loser will take off his jacket (conservative v modern) and wear the other one. They sat down and R Salanter took off his jacket, preparing to either win or lose. His opponent refused to take his jacket off. The R Salanter refused to have an argument with someone who is not prepared to fight till they find emes … on the other hand, maybe you mean the other saying of R Salanter: you should always advocate for Yiddishkeit, sometimes even with words …
August 8, 2025 10:06 am at 10:06 am #2435580Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantYYA> The fact that about a century ago some people came along and decided they want to create עם חדש בארצו on their terms, and a few decades later they seemed to get their wish and called themselves ‘Israelis’, has nothing to do with us. … Our job is to keep the Torah = listen to the גדולי הדור.
Look, I am not a chosid of Ben Gurion. It may be a complicated historical discussion who did what and what it means. Most people in Israel now are not even descendants of those early Zionists – so many people came from Europe after WW2, from Sephardi countries, from Soviet golus, from USA …
We are mostly talking about how to relate to the current situation. Yonah learned from the kikayon that people in the city matter for Hashem. Surely, the same applies to citizens of Israel.
And as to “giving over”, we need to do it honestly. There are varying halachik opinions about modern life, and it is not really “giving over” when you present one of the position as unquestionable halakha. Beis Hillel would present position of B Shammai before theirs.
August 8, 2025 10:10 am at 10:10 am #2435662ZSKParticipant@YYA:
1) No disagreement about the HCJ. We have a certain former Justice Aharon Barak (that is someone that terms such as “Yemach Shemo” and “Shem Reshaim Yirkav” could be used in association with, even though I wish him a long life to 120 years) to thank for that.
2) I was focusing on the legal definition.
3a) That is the Charedi position. That is not the RZ position.
3b) Obviously.
4) I did agree and I don’t deny it.
5) I share your lack of optimism toward the HCJ and IDF compromising. However, I will point out that AAQ is right about something: The IDF should not have to convince Charedim to serve. They should just me showing to serve like everyone else because it is the law.
6) I have no problem with discussing the politics, which absolutely plays a role in this issue. The broad consensus you speak of is within the Charedi community and certain parts of the RZ community. It is not aross the board.
7-8) No disagreement.
9) The IDF doesn’t want נוער הגבעות because the brass doesn’t trust them (they also tend to engage in criminal activity, specifically arson and destruction of property). Regarding everyone else, the games should stop.Just to be clear – again: I disagree with the Charedi Tzibbur on issues associated with the State, but most of those issues (Hallel on Israeli holidays, prayer for the state, IDF, captives/hostages) are relatively minor – with the exception of IDF service (which I have mixed feelings about). But I am of the position that it is the law that everyone is to serve and Charedim do not have the right to exempt themselves based on ideological arguments no one is accepting outside certain parts of the RZ Tzibbur and the Charedi Tzibbur.
@Yankel: They’re supposedly deferring, but in reality they are deferring until they are too old to serve – which is de facto draft dodging. Let’s be honest, Charedim want a blanket exmeption enshrined in law.@AAQ:
Shas at its core is a social justice party dressed up in Sephardic clothing. It is also decidedly Charedi – or possibly non-Zionist Sephardic, but it is far more focused on social justice issues that Charedi issues.August 10, 2025 9:47 am at 9:47 am #2435977yankel berelParticipant@AAQ
> It was the unelected SC which illegally nullified this law. There have no legal power to nullify laws.
we do need that important word – unelected .
since the state of Israel was founded as a democracy where power lies with the people
the word unelected here means that the SC do not derive their power directly from the people
only from the law , which in turn derives its power from the people
the SC cannot use their power which they received from the people in a limited fashion i.e. to interpret the law and never to invalidate laws, and then go, on their own initiative, extend their own power without any base in existing law , and invalidate new laws passed by the source of power , the people themselves.
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.August 10, 2025 9:47 am at 9:47 am #2436014yankel berelParticipantthe israeli’s murdered one and half million unborn babies of their own since the medina’s founding .
the haredim did bh not murder their own babies , but worked hard to raise them even when stricken with poverty , at great mesirut nefesh, while the israeli’s feasted.
had the israeli’s not murdered , had the israeli’s not feasted , they would have plenty of manpower.
now, when the israeli’s claim that haredim do not carry ‘the burden’ … it rings a bit hollow to me ….—
the israeli’s came and initiated wars with the arabs in order to establish their medina , they did not come and ask the haredim what they think .
they created facts on the ground on their own .
do they have the moral right to accuse haredim of neglecting to ‘carry the burden’ ?
I doubt they do ….—
I have seen those deferring and their lifestyle from close up. they live on practically nothing , they live with nothing , rear their children to be happy with nothing and their youth grows up totally crime free .
for example , bnei brak a city of close to 200.000 people did not have a police station for many long decades .
israel’s justice system did not have to deal with haredi violent criminals since the states founding
are there some social imbalances resulting from the coerced army melting pot ? yes
is the system perfect ? no
can we accuse those mesirut nefesh people of neglecting to ‘carry the burden’ ? has veshalom .
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.August 11, 2025 3:27 am at 3:27 am #2436235ZSKParticipantI’m not going to get into what Israel has done in terms of aborting babies. That quite frankly has nothing to do with it. IDF service is a government policy and legal issue. Charedim are in the govermnent and play a major role, therefore the policy and law concerns then.
I lived in Bnei Brak for several years and also saw their lifestyle close up. What I saw was clearly very different from what you saw. They can serve.
August 11, 2025 3:27 am at 3:27 am #2436238Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantyankel > the word unelected here means that the SC do not derive their power directly from the people
> only from the law , which in turn derives its power from the people
> since the state of Israel was founded as a democracyDirect democracy was practiced in Athens where citizens were voting on all issues and that fell up pretty quickly. Most modern countries have various mechanisms that limit voter participation. Courts are part of that – as well as of Torah law. This is not a problem in itself. I agree that unelected parts of the government should be limited in how far they can go. Many such systems have some flaws or undefined areas that lead to disputes. As Israeli law is mix up of Turkish, British, Jewish legal systems and was not built by philosophers or Talmudists, the fact that there are flaws is not surprising.
If you are right and they are not “legitimate” then the system will work it out – Knesset will vote for ignoring them or write an explicit rule that defines what courts can do. But at the end, it will come to public opinion – if it supports certain actions, politicians will find a way to deal with that.
August 11, 2025 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #2436505yankel berelParticipantAAQ
you are obviously not following the israeli news
knesset duly legislated to curb the court’s power and guess what – you couldn’t make this up
the court invalidated knessets law curbing its own power !
leftist media plus leftist money plus leftist Biden administration
all collaborated via street thugs and organized anarchy and with violence
forced the elected government to back downthere is nothing more than the rule of the jungle
under the guise of some nice words
in short – kol de’alim gavar
simple.
.August 11, 2025 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #2436506yankel berelParticipantAugust 11, 2025 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #2436562Yaakov Yosef AParticipantZSK – But I am of the position that it is the law that everyone is to serve and Charedim do not have the right to exempt themselves based on ideological arguments.
I understand where you are coming from, but look at it the other way. (Don’t get me wrong, and I am not trying to make a 1:1 comparison in terms of intensity.) There were ‘laws on the books’ in the time of the Greeks, the Romans, all of Medieval Europe, Spain, Russia… The גדולי התורה of those generations taught us that our ‘ideological arguments’, i.e. the Torah (its letter and spirit) come before those laws. Sometimes we had a נס חנוכה, and sometimes we were tortured and slaughtered, but we are still here, and they are long gone… You may argue that here it is different, because it’s a ‘Jewish’ state with Chareidi participation in government, etc. The bottom line is that ALL of the Chareidi (and some RZ) Gedolei Torah aren’t buying it. As I have mentioned previously, the consensus is far too broad to blame on politics. This is real, whether anyone likes it or not. If it means all Chareidim becoming Kanoyim, with all that implies, so be it. We aren’t going anywhere, and there isn’t enough room in Israeli jails for 54,000 boys. The Israeli government will not be able to do anything more brutal than Antiochus or Hadrian or Czar Nicholas I ימח שמם. Then, as now, the point of the ‘laws’ was to integrate the Jews into their vision of the broader society, and they didn’t see themselves as villains or oppressors for trying to do so.
The reality is that the IDF has no use for thousands of Chareidi soldiers who ‘aren’t with the program’. For them this is a bigger pain in the neck then the Hilltop Youth (who at least believe in fighting Arabs…) Left to their own devices, the IDF brass (and probably Bibi and most of the politicians) wanted somewhat more of what has been going on until now – ויזנב בך כל הנחשלים אחריך to turn into Chardakim, some of whom may finish off still outwardly resemble Chareidim enough to be able to convince a new and slightly larger crop to join the next round. IMHO, the AG and Bagatz are (most unwilling) שליחים of the השגחה עליונה to raise the bar too high and too fast, and break the cycle. They themselves don’t understand that their actions and words are doing more to stop Chareidi recruitment (among those somewhat more serious, but still בקצה המחנה) than anything the גדולי תורה could have done on their own. This מצב will force the ‘at risk’ demographic to decide who they are and where they want to be. This will also harden and unify Chareidi positions on issues that may otherwise have been negotiable or internally contentious. Those who will leave will primarily be those who were looking to leave anyway. (Same thing that happened with the Hellenists, Meshumadim, Maskilim, etc.)
The bottom line is, pitting the ‘rule of law’ (something that isn’t exactly Israel’s strong point even in the best of times…) against the rule of Torah (as interpreted by the real גדולי ישראל, the ones the דעת בעלי בתים don’t like…) will not work. It might not be pretty, but it won’t work.
August 11, 2025 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #2436579Yaakov Yosef AParticipantZSK – I’m not going to get into what Israel has done in terms of aborting babies. That quite frankly has nothing to do with it.
Sure it does… ואכמ״ל
ZSK – IDF service is a government policy and legal issue.
So was the Cantonist decree or any other גזרות שמד.
ZSK – Charedim are in the govermnent and play a major role, therefore the policy and law concerns them.
They are there, and they can leave. The Kanoyim are still here after 77 years of not being in the government or taking money from them. If they call their bluff, there won’t be anything remaining for the Left to leverage.
ZSK – I lived in Bnei Brak for several years and also saw their lifestyle close up. What I saw was clearly very different from what you saw.
ממה נפשך, if they are for real, they will listen to the גדולי תורה. If not ח״ו, they will have an opportunity to choose. I also have seen a lot in almost 30 years of living in Israel, though I don’t agree with your assessment. My gut feeling is that when push comes to shove more are for real than you think. (I also think that the real loser of this מצב will be the AG/Bagatz Junta, becaus more ‘Chilonim’ are מאמינים than many here think, and civil war ר״ל is not an option for anyone.)
August 11, 2025 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #2436591Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ – Forget about the dictionary definition of ‘democracy’ vs. ‘republic’ etc. The Israeli Supreme Court is off the rails. Everyone knows it, even their supporters, except their supporters like it that way… They gave themselves de-facto veto power over all laws passed. Laws are written in the Knesset based on what the Bagatz will or won’t approve, much like Congress does with the President. That is not the role of a court in any country. Aside from the fact that they can declare laws ‘unconstitutional’, without a constitution… Or they can tell the Army what to do or not to do during wartime… This is complete insanity, not some ‘flaws’.
August 11, 2025 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #2436594Yaakov Yosef AParticipantAAQ – If you are right and they are not “legitimate” then the system will work it out – Knesset will vote for ignoring them or write an explicit rule that defines what courts can do. But at the end, it will come to public opinion – if it supports certain actions, politicians will find a way to deal with that.
That should be true, except it isn’t… The small and vocal Leftist minority has a stranglehold on the Israeli economy, media, upper Army brass, and of course the judiciary itself… Even Bibi can’t stop them. Have you been following local news here for the last three years?
August 11, 2025 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #2436595Yaakov Yosef AParticipantYankel berel – well put.
August 11, 2025 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #2436596Yaakov Yosef AParticipantBy the way, when we talk about sharing the burden, what about the burden of raising the next generation of כלל ישראל, or even just maintaining a large enough Jewish majority in Israel? Why isn’t that very real burden, which is MORE necessary for survival than even the IDF, also something that needs to be shared? And if the Chilonim (and some, not all, MO/RZ) don’t want to share the burden, they should at least be more appreciative of those who do serve…
August 13, 2025 9:43 am at 9:43 am #2437451keithParticipantMy friends and brothers – the likelihood that any of us will solve this problem. Here is close to zero. The likelihood that we are slandering each other in our brothers and sisters, who have never been exposed to to Judaism is great. Please be careful with lashon harah. Many here are slandering holy Jews they have never met, assuming things about them that they simply do not know. I bet it is just as likely that we are delaying the geulah as much here in this discussion with ourslander as much as any Israeli never exposed to torah Judaism is by violating Shabbos.
August 13, 2025 10:23 am at 10:23 am #2437639ZSKParticipant@YYA – I responded to you and Yankel but the mods appear to have blocked the post. I’m not really sure why.
Suffice it to say that I partially disagree and partially agree.
August 13, 2025 11:32 am at 11:32 am #2437737Yaakov Yosef AParticipantKeith – The likelihood that any of us will solve this problem. Here is close to zero. The likelihood that we are slandering each other in (and?) our brothers and sisters, who have never been exposed to Judaism is great.
You are very right. I have also mentioned this point more than once, and so did Yankel Berel and others. Many here do try to stick to positive arguments, as opposed to frontally bashing the other side.
August 13, 2025 11:32 am at 11:32 am #2437745Yaakov Yosef AParticipantZSK – Very hard to predict when the moderation will release any given comment. This results in comments apparently being posted out of sequence.
August 13, 2025 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #2437821ZSKParticipant@YYA – Yeah, I know. I suspect that either something is glitchy with the website or the response was blocked completely.
The general gist of it was what I’ve been saying all along:
– Charedim should serve and I don’t think the reasons provided are good enough. We’re going to have to agree to disagree on the issue. That being said, that does not change the fact that there are very serious problems within the IDF – problems I have never denied the existence of or denied that they are problems in need of change.
– The inflexiblity of the government, HCJ and Charedi leadership bear the blame for the situation. At the moment, the HCJ and AG are generally speaking the biggest problem other than the IDF’s insitutional biases that require fundamental change. To a certain degree I believe Charedi leadership bears some blame due to inflexibility – but I understand their side perfectly well.
– The government – and in particular people like Yair Lapid and Merav Michaeli – is its own worst enemy when it comes to drafting Charedim. Every time there is a trend toward serving, some anti-religious ideologue has to open his/her mouth or try to pass a law forcing the issue when quietly letting Charedi society start serving on their own is the right move.
– The battle over Charedim being drafted should not be happening in the middle of a war.
– There will need to be difficult compromises made by all parties for anything to change in a meaningful manner.
– RZ isn’t the problem and was never the problem, contrary to certain individuals arguing the contrary. Ideological secularism is, whether it takes the form of Zionism, progressivism, communism, leftist authoritarianism, etc.
– The issue of preserving a Jewish majority is an issue that needs to be confronted.
BTW, the term “Chardakim” is gross.
August 17, 2025 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #2438594yankel berelParticipantZSK – “IDF service is a government policy and legal issue.”
—
Small but important fact reminder :1] Before the SC in Israel overstepped its mandate given by the Knesset, and illegally cancelled the 50-year-old authority of Israel’s successive Ministers of Defense , there was a fully working arrangement , whereby only fulltime learners were deferring on a yearly basis and non fulltime learners enlisted , haredi or otherwise.
Just because the SC illegally cancelled this working compromise , that does not mean that haredim are legally obligated to follow suit.
—2] Before the unelected SC in Israel overstepped its mandate given by the Knesset, and illegally cancelled the Tal Law, which was duly passed by a 51 – 41 vote in the elected Knesset [the only legal sovereign of the State] , there was a law on the books , whereby only fulltime learners were deferring on a yearly basis and non fulltime learners enlisted , haredi or otherwise.
The SC never received the power to cancel any laws, in any way shape or form , not from the Knesset nor from the Israeli voter.
Just because the SC illegally cancelled this law , that does not mean that haredim are legally obligated to follow suit.
.
.August 18, 2025 10:27 am at 10:27 am #2439061Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantyankel, I understand your argument, but they are not 100% evident for everyone.
1) 50-year-old policy by Ben Gurion was a political arrangement. He did not, and could not, bind later governments. And as discussed it (1) applied to true learners, (2) number of learners was small. It was working for you, but evidently not for others, who applied political pressure.
2) Tal law apparently did not achieve results that were expected from it. It was a great opportunity to show cooperation, but instead it seems that it was abused. Without that, or at least, without your opponents saying that, it would not have been changed – politically.
And you are free to apply political pressure to clarify laws about SC – and you will be successful when you will have super-majority of the country on your side. And, as I mentioned before, the best way to get sympathy from other groups is to cooperate with them.
August 18, 2025 10:27 am at 10:27 am #2439063Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantNot sure, what is the right thread, but I’d like to bring some halachik sources to support the idea that a religious community should behave so that other Jews – and non-Jews – be favorable to them.
Rambam sefer hamtzvos, neg 63:
category of hillul Hashem: a person known for his high level, who performs an act that regular people (hahamon) perceive as an aveira, … even though his action is mutar, it is hillul Hashem.also hilchos Yesodei Torah 5:11 adam gadol in Torah … and hasidut that briyut (this includes non-Jews, I presume) is suspicious, even if it is not an aveirah, it is hillul Hashem.
I understand this establishes a requirement to behave in a way that normal people outside of your community see your behavior as yashar. For example, maybe run and establish a verifiable system with fingerprinting and cameras so that people could see how long bochurim are learning. Maybe even make them hear some learning, that would not hurt too!
August 18, 2025 10:27 am at 10:27 am #2439067ZSKParticipantYes, you’re right about the HCJ overstepping its authority. That’s part of what the judicial reforms were supposed to address. We have a certain Aharon Barak to thank for starting this mess back in the 1980s-1990s, as well as the current AG, Yair Lapid, etc. for perpetuating it.
I believe the government should have enforced the Tal Law more than it did. A lot of these issues could have been solved if they did so – and if certain groups within the Charedi Tzibbur kept cooler heads.
A counter point that is important: The Charedi leadership has for many years prevented non-fulltime learners from enlisting through various means, but especially through social pressure and shidduchim. That has to change.
I still believe Charedim should serve in some capacity, whether it’s IDF service or national civil service.
Like I said to YYA, we’re not going to agree on this issue. That being said, the problems and issues at hand are not lost on me.
August 19, 2025 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #2439572yankel berelParticipantthe whole draft is blatantly illegal
something which ALL of Israel’s defense ministers accepted (and were still accepting [!]) for fifty[!] years, was illegally overturned at the whim of seven [extreme left merets voting] individuals nicknamed judges.
who are selected via a clearly corrupted ‘friend brings friend’ processsomething which was accepted after three separate readings in an extended outdrawn process in Israel’s sole existing elected national body by a clear majority, exactly like all other laws in Israel’s law book, was illegally overturned a second time, by the same seven crooks and criminals
crooks and criminals , because they continuously subvert [note the present tense] their power illegally extending it far beyond its true legal power , going on from 1990 and onwards
to the extent that most major decisions are now taken by them themselves , leaving the executive and legislative branches to make the minor decisions , and very importantly, clean up the mess and face the voter’s anger all by themselves.
huge power they grabbed for themselves , with zero responsibility.
much like the ‘supreme’ leader in another country , who ,unelected , makes most major decisions and leaves it to the elected president , to make the minor decisions , then clean up the mess and face the voter’s anger , all by himself.
that country is often in the news and is well known as a bastion of true authoritarianism , as Iran is known for.
to quote as aaq does , this evil institution, or any of the repercussions of its rulings, as any indication of the legality or otherwise of draft ‘dodgers’ , is nothing more than one big farce.
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.August 24, 2025 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #2441099yankel berelParticipantZSK agrees ?
August 26, 2025 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #2441738Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantyankel> something which ALL of Israel’s defense ministers accepted (and were still accepting [!]) for fifty[!] years, was illegally overturned at the whim of seven [extreme left merets voting] individuals nicknamed judges.
You are talking about political acceptance. Israeli system has very little of stable laws that need a super-majority to overcome, like US does. So, by definition, political process can change things. Ben Gurion cannot obligate government 80 years later. BUt it can influence political debate. So, if you behave in a way that inspires other people to support your position, then your position will eventually become the law of the land. SC will not be able to stand in the way against 70-80 votes in the Knesset.
You should also study what happened under Tal law. My uneducated impression is that this was a compromise solution that had good intension of gradually bring some of the charedi community into the Army. It did not produce the result. I can’t tell whose fault is greater – army not being accepting enough, or charedim not intending to comply. But it ended in a failure and lead to backlash. And here we are.
August 26, 2025 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #2441772ZSKParticipantSorry, real life interfered.
Yes, you’re right about the HCJ. I never disagreed about that.
That being said, you, YYA and I are on opposites of the IDF issue and will not agree. My stance is still that Charedim should serve in the IDF and it is not going to change.
August 28, 2025 11:51 am at 11:51 am #2442374yankel berelParticipantyou are entitled to your opinion – but that does not make the current draft any more legal ….
from a strictly legal point of view – those enforcing the draft, are kidnappers and should be treated as such .
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