Move to Eretz Yisroel Without Accepting Citizenship

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  • #602053

    Doswin
    Member

    If an American citizen permanently moves to Eretz Yisroel, what steps must he take to NOT (ever) become an Israeli citizen? Neither himself nor his current and future children.

    #943682

    AinOhdMilvado
    Participant

    Doswin…

    You can’t do it.

    What is your reason for wanting to?

    Are you afraid of being called a Zionist?

    Even the wackos in Beit Shemesh are Israeli citizens.

    #943683

    yungerman1
    Participant

    Doswin- You dont become a citizen just by living in the country.

    If both parents are not Israeli then the child is not Israeli either. HOWEVER, its in your best interest to go to Misrad HaPnim soon after the baby is born and renounce citizenship. When they tell you that its unecessary, reply thank you very much and please give that to me in writing.

    That said, the law can always be changed retroactively, so you never know!

    #943684

    sem graduate
    Member

    I know of a family that moved here, had all their kids here, some of their kids are married, and none of them are israeli citizens. They renew student visas every 2/3 years (i’m not sure how often it has to be done but they’re all on student visas)

    #943685

    I’m quite sure you can.

    Immigrants from many European countries do it as a matter of principle, almost. The thing is, several European countries (including, I believe, The Netherlands, Germany, and Switzerland) have laws forbidding dual citizenship.

    If I, upon immigrating to Israel, would have accepted Israeli citizenship, I would immediately and automatically have lost my Dutch citizenship (the Israeli authorities would notify the Dutch authorities per agreement between them).

    Therefore, Israel has come up with a way to allow people from these countries to immigrate without having to give up their European citizenship. We get a ‘teudat zehut’ with permanent resident status, we get all rights and duties of a citizen, except: 1) we are not citizens; 2) we therefore don’t have an Israeli passport; 3) we can’t vote for the Knesset, and if I remember correctly, we cannot be elected to the Knesset and cannot serve as army officers or as judges.

    The procedure is called by the name of the document you get to confirm it: “ARLI” standing for

    ????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ???????

    I think… might be wrong. It’s “Confirmation of non-acquisition of Israeli citizenship”.

    If a Dutch / German / Swiss citizen does NOT get this ARLI document upon registering as ‘oleh chadash’ at Misrad HaPnim (when you get the Teudat Zehut) – or it might have been at Natbag, or at Misrad HaKlita; I don’t remember, it was so long ago – they would automatically lose their European citizenship.

    Of the tens of Dutch immigrants I have met in Israel, I know none (0,0), even the dati leumim, who accepted Israeli nationality and gave up their Dutch nationality. It just doesn’t provide you with any benefits and you stand to lose much more than you gain.

    Now as for you… The question is whether Israel allows anyone to do this, get a regular Teudat Zehut while not acquiring citizenship with an ARLI declaration. For that, you’ll need to approach, I suppose, either or multiple of: 1) the Jewish Agency, 2) the Israeli embassy, 3) Misrad HaPnim, 4) Misrad HaKlita.

    #943686

    hershi
    Member

    Don’t officially declare yourself to have decided to live there permanently. How will they convey citizenship upon you without your consent. And there are Arabs who have always been living in Israel (including in the non-PA areas and including before the PA even existed) that never became, and aren’t, Israeli citizens. I don’t see any reason anyone would be compelled to become a citizen.

    #943687

    hershi
    Member

    The US has a green card/permanent residency status that does not include citizenship. Perhaps Israel has similar.

    #943689

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    what steps must he take to NOT (ever) become an Israeli citizen? Neither himself nor his current and future children.

    I highly doubt that there is any step you can take that would prevent your children from EVER becoming citizens. Even if you manage to keep citizenship from them as children, there is nothing you can do to prevent them from applying for it when they become adults.

    The Wolf

    #943690

    AinOhdMilvado
    Participant

    The Chassidishe Gatesheader…

    “It just doesn’t provide you with any benefits and you stand to lose much more than you gain”

    What ARE you talking about?

    There are MANY zechuyot one receives as an oleh chadash.

    Just speak to anyone who came with Nefesh B’Nefesh.

    Why would you prefer to keep dutch citizenship to Israel citizenship?!?

    #943691

    ED IT OR
    Participant

    until moshiach comes it is impossible to become a citizen of ERETZ YISROEL

    if u stay in Israel on a tourist visa and keep updating that, then I don’t think you become an Israeli citizen, that said I’m not sure if you can work on a alef2 tourist visa

    #943692

    m in Israel
    Member

    AinOhdMilvado — There are actually not so many “zechuyot” for an oleh chadash today. (I am someone who did make Aliyah with Nefesh B’Nefesh, so I know from whence I speak). Basically it boils down to some cash (called the “sal klita”) over the first 7 months that you live here, very small amount of money towards rental assistance for the first few years if you don’t buy a house, free health insurance for the first year (after which you have to pay for mandatory insurance like any other Israeli), 75% tax instead of 125% if you buy a car within the first 3 years, the right to bring in 3 lifts of household items tax free, and possible help towards college degrees if you are young enough. Oh, and the State of Israel will pay for your one way airfare to come, and give you a free ride from the airport to anywhere in the country.

    On the flip side, I can perfectly understand someone wanting to keep their foreign citizenship. We are still in Galus, of course, and people feel it is prudent hishtadlus to keep their options open. (The U.S. has no problem with dual citizenship, so that was not an issue for us — but I make a point of keeping both our Israeli and U.S. passports current for the same reason.) Additionally since Israel is a country with a mandatory draft for all citizens, there are people who are nervous about becoming citizens and having to send their kids to the army. You may feel that is not right, but it is definitely a real factor to many people, particularly considering the dismal situation for frum people in the IDF.

    As far as the original question — there are many legal ways to move to Israel without declaring Aliyah and becoming a citizen — the most common ones are via a student visa or the “permanent resident” status described by The Chassidishe Gatesheader in his very informative post. However I believe that yungerman1 is wrong about the kids. My understanding is that although the parents are not citizens, any children born in the country have the automatic status of citizens unless the parents specifically renounce it. If you don’t want your kids born here to be citizens, make sure to renounce it formally after each birth.

    #943693

    m in Israel
    Member

    oh, and crazybit is right — there are strict limitations on if you can legally work here on a student or tourist visa (I don’t know what the work situation is for a permanent resident.) I worked here the year I was in seminary on a student visa, and I had to get a special amendment to my visa that allowed me to work in that one specific job. I believe those rules are pretty much the same today.

    #943694

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    If you don’t want your kids born here to be citizens, make sure to renounce it formally after each birth.

    In the US, you cannot renounce your citizenship if you are physically in the US. A similar situation would seem to agree with regard to Israel. At the Israeli government website dealing with renunciation of citizenship, it specifies that you must be an Israeli citizen *living abroad* to renounce your citizenship. In addition, you will have to present certification from another country that citizenship will be granted. In other words, you cannot deliberately leave yourself (or your child) stateless.

    Lastly, the entire process is up to the Interior Minister and can be declined at his/her discretion.

    http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/Consular_affairs/Renouncing_Israeli_citizenship.htm

    The Wolf

    #943695

    yungerman1
    Participant

    m in Israel- My opinion is based on personal experience, not on hearsay or “belief”.

    #943696

    Doswin
    Member

    The US considers anyone (except children of diplomats) born in the US to be citizens. (Even visitors/tourists.) This is very rare as very few countries consider children of non-citizens born on their soil to automatically be citizens from birth. I’m not sure that Israel does either. Are children of non-citizen Arab residents born in Israel automatically Israeli citizens?

    #943697

    hershi
    Member

    Do permanent residents of Israel, who are not citizens of Israel, have any Army service obligations? Are they any different than the obligations of citizens?

    #943698

    @AinOhvMilvado – “What ARE you talking about?

    There are MANY zechuyot one receives as an oleh chadash.

    Just speak to anyone who came with Nefesh B’Nefesh.

    Why would you prefer to keep dutch citizenship to Israel citizenship?!?”

    Apparently you didn’t read what I wrote.

    This way, one receives all duties and benefits of an oleh chadash. All the subsidies, sal klita, benefits – everything.

    The only, single, difference is that you don’t get Israeli citizenship – instead, all you get is a teudat zehut. Meaning inside Israel you’re 100% like a citizen, no differences at all – except that you can’t vote for the Knesset. Once you go outside of Israel you’re back to being whatever nationality you actually are.

    Again, as I wrote, this is how just about everyone from The Netherlands and several other European countries does it. Now it could be this arrangement is only possible for people from those specific countries.

    And as for why I wouldn’t want to give up my Dutch citizenship? Well, for the simple fact that after spending many years (working fulltime!) in Israel I was completely out of money and in heavy debts, even though I was working 43 hours per week. Since I couldn’t find any better jobs in Israel, and also because I intend to perhaps continue my studies at some point and in Europe I can get a ~ $1300 per month subsidy from the Dutch government to study in Europe, I decided to move back to Europe.

    Found a job in the UK, my wife found a job as well, and now our income has doubled in comparison to a year ago and we are finally managing a decent life and to pay off our debts.

    I’m able to live and work in the UK because I am a Dutch citizen – that’s the European Union: free movement of people. I can legally live and work in any European country, from the UK to Greece and from Finland to Portugal, anywhere in between. So can my wife, even though she herself isn’t a EU citizen.

    If I had given up my Dutch citizenship when immigrating to Israel, I would probably be begging for tzedokoh in the streets now in Israel. In the best case, I’d be living with my mother-in-law now.

    Trust me – giving up your ‘other’ citizenship in exchange for Israeli citizenship is the WORST possible mistake one could possibly make. For Americans, Canadians and many others it is not a concern since those countries allow dual citizenship. But for many Europeans it is a very real issue. Luckily I have never met anyone who was silly enough to actually accept Israeli citizenship and lose his EU citizenship.

    #943699

    AinOhdMilvado
    Participant

    There is one more aspect to living in Israel without being a citizen…

    You get to complain about all of Israel’s faults, about how terrible the anti-frum Zionists are, – WITHOUT being able to participate in the political process to try to improve things!

    So you can sit back and just speak ‘dibat ra al ha’aretz’ without having to take any responsibility for it – or CAN you?

    #943700

    @hershi – yes, people like me who request an ARLI declaration are, like any other immigrant, required to serve in the army. As I said, the same rights and obligations – except for the citizenship and voting for the Knesset.

    #943701

    hershi
    Member

    Chasidisha Gatesheader: What other paths to non-citizen permanent residency is there other than ARLI (and how do they differ)?

    #943702

    more
    Member

    Doswin

    Member

    If an American citizen permanently moves to Eretz Yisroel, what steps must he take to NOT (ever) become an Israeli citizen? Neither himself nor his current and future children.

    ask your mother to write you an excuse note if she is Israeli, they’ll accept that!!! trust me!! I most definitely know vot I’m sTALKING about…LOL!!!

    #943703

    Avi K
    Participant

    me, anyone who wants to “keep his options often” as “hishtadlut” is oevr on the Sin of the Spies (unless he is already receiving benefits as a citizen of another counntry and woiuld lose them).You are also incorrect about keeping your US passport current. The only reason for that is to be able to visit your family and friends in America without need of a visa. However, even if it lapses you can renew it if you have proof of citizenship such as a birth certificate issued in the US. It just costs $25 extra if the old passport was not issued within 15 years. In fact, a friend of mine let his passport lapse as after his parents also made aliya he saw no reason to go back – then he was invited to a wedding and decided to go. You are correct, however, regarding America’s acceptance of dual citizenship (the way it is conferred here, ditto doing the Army – apeak to someone at NBN or AACI). In fact, the State Dept. very much does not like to revoke someone’s citizenship and even makes it difficult to repudiate it. On the other hand, without Israeli citizenship one cannot participate in the political process (big mitzva as is doing the Army for a boy) or hold certain jobs.

    #943704

    Toi
    Participant

    AOM- the claim you make to be oiver that lav is laughable. dibas rah al ha’aretz means on the land. NOT on a government who systematically fights against the torah. sheesh. a great grandson of R Moshe Feinstien ztl told me that in a letter to a relative, R Moshe informs him not to complain about the weather here, as he could be oiver the lav. i dont think callin bb a corrupt politician suffices, but hey, twist it veiter however you want.

    #943705

    babygoose
    Participant

    Start with a visa of either a student or a tourist. keep renewing it.

    ps it may be worth making aliyah, cuz u get $$ from the gov.

    pps. with visas you are not entitled to many benefits which you would otherwise have

    #943706

    AinOhdMilvado
    Participant

    Avi K…

    Save your breath.

    They don’t get it.

    #943707

    Health
    Participant

    AOM – Oh we get it. It’s the MO’s & Mizrachists & Tzionim whom Don’t get it. Almost all the Gedolim aren’t WRONG!

    I remember when I was there, that they have an underground to help you remain a Non-citzen. I personally didn’t need them because I was there only a year. The reason why they have this because all the Eitzos mentioned above doesn’t really work. I think there is a time limit on renewing your tourist visa. And even though you can, I think, do the Student visa unlimited -they give you Tzoros, like for the females in your family and possibly fines and the docs. you need to prove Student status.

    I knew s/o who would travel every so often to Cypress to be able to maintain his Tourist status. Because like I just said -there is a time limit on these Visas and to renew them you have to leave Israel every couple of years and start over.

    One guy told me he once contacted the Agudah there and asked for help and they told him -“What’s wrong with becoming a citizen?”

    Feh!!!!

    #943708

    m in Israel
    Member

    Avi K — I completely don’t understand your post — or maybe you didn’t understand mine. First of all, for the record, we DID make Aliyah, and my entire family (including the kids born in the U.S.) are full Israeli citizens. However, I am quite confused as to how maintaining a foreign passport has anything to do with the sin of the spies! And of course you can renew your expired passport at any time under normal circumstances — you obviously didn’t understand my reference to “hishtadlus”. I didn’t elaborate as this is off the topic of the OP, but I’ll clarify here. The point is that since of course we are in Galus, and one doesn’t know at any point what the future may bring (i.e. nuclear war, etc.), keeping passports current is a form of hishtadlus that many people feel is appropriate. Chas v’Shalom in case of war or even simply the need to travel suddenly it may help. (Before we made Aliyah I also always made a point of having our US passports current. I know of a situation where someone died suddenly in the U.S. and they wanted to do the kevurah in Eretz Yisroel and the daughter of the niftar almost was unable to go because she did not have a current passport. They eventually found someone with connections in the State Department to help expedite things, but it added a lot of stress to an already stressful situation.)

    #943709

    There are some Yidden in EY descended from the first yishuv that never accepted citizenship. They also use dollars for monetary transactions to avoid using Israeli currency.

    #943710

    Nechomah
    Participant

    They don’t make as many problems now as they used to. You used to have to renew student visas yearly, now they do every 2 or 3 years and you pay much less than it used to be, more of a family price than a set price for each individual.

    You do have to be aware that if either spouse has even one parent who ever held Israeli citizenship at one time that is enough to prevent you from being able to do what you want, because that Israeli citizenship was conferred onto the spouse at his/her birth no matter where in the world the child was born. You only need one Israeli parent to be “entitled to” Israeli citizenship and since it wasn’t refused in the time immediately following the birth, then they are automatically Israeli and this automatically passes down to their children in the same manner.

    Now as far as “benefits” you receive, yes, there is some help with rent, bringing in the lift, and things that another poster mentioned above. There aren’t too many other things that you don’t get without citizenship. The permanent resident business has all of the issues of army service as regular citizenship, so that may not help you if that’s what you are concerned about.

    As far as something like health coverage, there is a law here that a person who is in this country continuously for 1 year without going out is entitled to apply to Bituach Leumi for coverage. This is called a “toshav” and entitles a person to Kupat Cholim health coverage.

    #943711

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Despite all this posturing, to answer the OP’s question, there is NOTHING he can do to make sure that his children NEVER become Israeli citizens. Any children will have the ability to apply for citizenship as an adult regardless of any actions the OP takes.

    The Wolf

    #943712

    yungerman1
    Participant

    Wolf- The link you provided refers to renouncing citizenship.

    I understand the OP as asking about a non Israeli citizen that lives in Israel. No need to renounce (as I stated above) because they do not become a citizen. Children of US citizens are automatically US citizens regardless of where they are born.

    #943713

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    But he’s asking how he can prevent any children who will be born (presumably, if they are born in Israel, they will automatically be Israeli citizens) or immigrate (who may or may not become citizens on immigration) from EVER becoming citizens.

    If your children are born citizens, then you would need to renounce that citizenship.

    The Wolf

    #943714

    Yeah, but at least a child born in Israel to non-citizen parents, doesn’t automatically become a citizen.

    #943715

    Avi K and AinOhdMilvado:

    I’d just like to confirm that both of you:

    1) Live in Israel;

    2) Have renounced your American citizenship and are indeed no longer American citizens;

    3) That you have done the same for your wifes and children and possible grandchildren (ie, that nobody in your family holds an American citizenship).

    If I am mistaken and you are not originally American, then replace ‘American’ with Canadian, British, or whatever your nationality was before becoming Israeli.

    #943716

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    It is a good idea if you are going to live in Israel, to return to America each time you have a child. This way they won’t be able to lay claim to your kids.

    #943717

    yungerman1
    Participant

    Wolf- Tzum Drite Muhl- A child born in Israel to parents that are both not Israeli citizens, IS NOT AN ISRAELI CITIZEN!!! aargh!

    #943718

    Don’t worry. Avi K and AOM will be back to their senses in their countries of origin in due time, unless they are independently wealthy.

    I’ve had the last laugh at many an idealistic “oleh” who eventually finds himself in trouble with the banks, or with job loss, or with Bituach Leumi, or personal problems, or seeing how much he is missing compared to his old friends back home – and at the nick of time, back he runs to Mommy and Daddy who were sending him bits of their pension money anyway because he was complaining about his low salary the whole time he was there.

    If you want to live in EY, keep all of your options open. Keep every citizenship you have, and if you are the child or grandchild of refugees from Poland, Hungary or the Czech Republic among others, you may also be able to get an EU passport. Your best bet is to telecommute, because wages in EY are far lower and prices far higher than in the US. There is an unsustainable bubble in real estate right now in EY, and when it breaks, there will be Greek-style misery for many who are now riding high.

    Friends of mine who are “Israeli” by birth to begin with thought they’d run from their Obama-related financial problems in the US and start over again in EY. They lasted 18 months there before they realized they made a mistake and that even the tzimtzum of the US under Obama is nothing compared to the constant malaise of life in the medine for all but the wealthiest (or those who have no interest in getting ahead and just chill out in Nachlaot by day and in Kikar Crack by night).

    Russia and Ukraine have more emigrants returning than immigrants leaving as far as EY is concerned. Most of those leaving are either students who should never be counted as olim as they will come back or old people who have valuable apartments here and can sell them for enough to live out their years in EY.

    #943719

    What you write is completely true.

    Also, I myself see it a bit different. I don’t see myself as affiliated specifically with 1 single place. I feel that I am as much Dutch as Israeli – and generally, European (note that I include Israel as part of Europe – I believe geographically that makes sense).

    I speak fluent German, and I feel perfectly at home anywhere in The Netherlands, (Dutch-speaking) Belgium, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, and the UK – and Israel. So if someone asks me, what am I really? I’m a citizen of the 21st century (loazi) – sorry, 58th century just doesn’t fit here. In this time, we don’t necessarily have to choose between one country or the other.

    As you mention, one can live in EY and telecommute with America. I’m doing it the other way around: living and working in the UK with customers in EY.

    And not just customers – I happen to work with particularly important customers, in particular extremely large companies and government agencies, on their most critical IT systems. I wonder what Avi K and AOM have to say about that?

    #943720

    hershi
    Member

    Tens of thousands of Israelis descending from Hungarian blood have applied for, and received, Hungarian Passports. The same is happening in the Embassies of other European countries in Tel Aviv.

    #943721

    CG, thanks for proving that much of the so-called tech boom in EY depends more on chu”l than the other way around. Many of the wannabes in EY often announce new discoveries to boost otherwise worthless stocks.

    I got an alert for a new discovery for treatment of yenne machle from a public company in EY. It took me 2 seconds to realize it was a scam at worst and a very premature announcement at best. I posted on the comments section for the linked article that no one should get their hopes up because the announcement is a stock play, and I quoted the part of the report that made it clear what was going on.

    Miraculously, the whole comments page for the article disappeared the next day. I was not surprised; today’s EY financial fraudsters are just as creative and intelligent as their grandfathers who sold a kilo of chicken for less than the next guy in the shuk because they cut the weight of their kilos to 650 grams!

    I do NOT want to be in EY when the next bust comes. Then again, no one will riot as they did in Greece – secular and national religious alike will just head for the exits, as the most talented and ambitious in EY always do even in boom times. At that point, all that will keep EY afloat, besides US aid, is the influx of frum money from abroad, including tourists visiting the mekoimos hakedoishim and buying apartments for retirement, or vacation use, or for children who learn there.

    #943722

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf- Tzum Drite Muhl- A child born in Israel to parents that are both not Israeli citizens, IS NOT AN ISRAELI CITIZEN!!! aargh!

    Fine. Yes, I’m thick headed, but now that you’ve yelled at me, I think it got through. Thank you for educating this stupid, thick, evil ignoramus.

    Nonetheless, my other point still remains. There is nothing that the OP can do (that I know of) to prevent his children from ever becoming Israeli citizens.

    If you know of a way, please, by all means, yell it at me.

    The Wolf

    #943723

    Creedmoor – sure, I believe you. I know Babylon, the company behind the translation software, quite well. They are the biggest thieves and fraudsters I have ever seen. I have never worked for such an unethical company. (Did I mention it’s 99,9% secular?) In fact I quit there after a couple of weeks when I discovered how they make their money. Again – most unethical company I ever saw. Don’t ever waste your money on them. Use Google Translate instead (it’s much better anyway, and free).

    #943724

    My only identity is – Jew. The only place I feel at home is in a shul or Jewish neighborhood, regardless of where I am. Tel Aviv has many places that are so secular as to be non-Jewish (never mind the central bus station area), and parts of EY are not settled by Jews even with the medine.

    I carry one passport and reside in a country other than the one that issued it. I am entitled to and will soon take another one from another place that I will not settle (I would like to and have many friends in that country, but it’s COLD up there and living there is expensive too).

    #943725

    mamashtakah
    Member

    CG, thanks for proving that much of the so-called tech boom in EY depends more on chu”l than the other way around.

    CG “proved” nothing of the sort. He spouted his personal opinions.

    I don’t see myself as affiliated specifically with 1 single place.

    That’s a pretty sad thing to hear from a frum Jew. There’s no mitzvah to live in the world anywhere other than E”Y.

    Tens of thousands of Israelis descending from Hungarian blood have applied for, and received, Hungarian Passports. The same is happening in the Embassies of other European countries in Tel Aviv.

    Hershi, let’s play the cite game. You make some sort of outrageous claim, and I ask you for a legitimate cite to back it up. I would love to know where or how you came up with this.

    #943726

    hershi
    Member

    mamash: It is from Hungarian government statistics cited in press. I don’t have the original source handy.

    #943727

    There is a mitzvah to bring kedusha wherever you live. The mitzvah of yishuv ha’aretz is very optional today.

    Many who live in EY are covering themselves in kedusha rather than spreading it because moving to EY is taking the easy way out. Some so-called frum olim even make trouble in EY (like Naomi Ragen) and spread klipa. Anyone can be frum in EY, where Shabbos is enforced by law and kosher food is all you can find everywhere. In EY my biggest decision is Rav Landa vs Badatz – Chinese vs Moroccan. Here, it is – do I have time to make it to the one kosher shop and restaurant before it closes or do I have to find fresh fish or eat vegetables again.

    I have met a lot of unhappy Western olim, often with children in distress and most of their family back at home, justifying themselves with this superior attitude when in reality they are depending on their relatives back home for all but the basics.

    The medine itself depends on the goodwill of the nations to survive. Its industries depend on export, and most countries have restrictions on dealing with EY for security or political reasons. Everything EY can design, others can also design (often better) and Asia has to make. Asian firms, although not owned by anti-Semites as European firms are, would rather avoid problems with increasingly fanatic local Muslims and therefore consider EY very secondary.

    On the other hand, Herzl has his dream of a “normal” people. Every country has Israeli drug dealers in its jails. And where do they go for help? Not to the embassy, which just lets them lie there. They go to charedi askanim, usually through Chabad, who raise money to get them legal representation.

    “Od teshvu poshim vezoinois birchovois Yerushalayim” is my Peerim parody of an MBD song, but I based the words on Herzl, not the Admou”r meCreedmoor.

    LOL GC – as for Babylon vs Google – you are 1000% right. I tried Babylon for fun, and it did a great job translating French to Gibberish. At least with Google, I have a base text that I can then work from.

    #943728

    Avi K
    Participant

    Bear, today we live in a global economy where everyone depends on everyone else.People who are unhappy here would have also been unhappy there (and I know several). The point is that it is a mitzva to make aliya and participate in some way in Israeli life.As for Israel (some of them “Charedi”) drug dealers, let them lie in jail and stop causing tremendous damage.

    #943729

    Those drug dealers are the sad grandchildren of those dispossessed of their heritage by the maabarot. The few charedi dealers in jails out there are not from EY; they’re from the fringes of US and UK communities. The ones helped by Chabad and the charedi askonim that back them are the ones whose grandfathers were geshmadded in the maabarot. Those dealers, by the way, are the very face of the medine in Hungary and Romania – in Romania, an official complained that EY once exported irrigation equipment, then switched to hi-tech and now criminals. He’s right – I saw it with my own eyes in Budapest and Prague where every illegal business is controlled by EY gangsters.

    EY is far more dependent than, say, the US or Russia, on other countries. Other countries do not need it in any way as it is a small market, and others can do what its firms can do for far less. That is why any firm that does make it big in EY sells out or moves its headquarters to the US.

    If the medine were given a shut-down order by the UN tomorrow, the only thing we would notice except refugees in our shuls is a Bamba shortage for a few weeks until Nestle switched production to another factory. Some smart-aleck refugees would probably stoop to selling their Bamba at $5 a pack to the very people who are volunteering to help them resettle.

    The medine is tiny, and it has a very small elite that controls everything. That elite, which owns the press, in turn dumps on charedim in order to mask the fact that they are stifling their fellow chilonim by keeping an iron grasp on the real assets of the EY economy – and stifling the charedim by making it uncomfortable for them and even for the few remaining dati-leumi with standards to serve in the army.

    I know far more people that tried EY out of real idealism, were disappointed, and ended up leaving and doing very well back home than losers here-losers there. The second type are the Nachlaot/Kikar Crack crowd and they, too, go back and forth.

    There is no mitzva to live in EY at present. There is ABSOLUTELY no mitzva to take part in any of the affairs of the medine. The first is a misinterpretation of Torah. The second is a tenet of a philosophy called zionism which, like deformed, preservative, deconstructionist, bundist and every other dead or dying movement, is based on prikas oil. Rav Kook tried to metaher a sheretz. He failed.

    However, there is a mitzva to help Jews from EY who end up searching for Judaism find it wherever they are, and not to tell them to go back to EY if they are floundering and living as shkootzim there. If it were not for that, I would probably davka forget how to speak Ivrit.

    #943730

    mamashtakah
    Member

    The mitzvah of yishuv ha’aretz is very optional today.

    Depends on who you ask.

    Anyone can be frum in EY, where Shabbos is enforced by law and kosher food is all you can find everywhere.

    I don’t understand. You feel this is bad thing?

    I have met a lot of unhappy Western olim, often with children in distress and most of their family back at home, justifying themselves with this superior attitude when in reality they are depending on their relatives back home for all but the basics.

    I have met many who are just the opposite. They have jobs, they have a car, their kids are fine. Your words sound like an excuse.

    Every country has Israeli drug dealers in its jails.

    You can substitute U.S., Mexican, or Colombian, for Israeli and the sentence would be equally true.

    #943731

    ED IT OR
    Participant

    the chassidish gatesheader,

    you are causing the credit crunch, you are messing around the world’s economy’s, if you get wages in Israel don’t take them anywhere besides the UK!

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