Mozzarella cheese doesn't need hashgacha?

Rav Abadi certainly holds that way. Rav Abadi is a posek in Lakewood.

Soft cheeses don’t need gevinat yisrael, and if mozzarella has no mozzarella, I wouldn’t see the issue. I’ve made mozzarella before, with milk, salt,

An interesting she’eila is whether cheese that is made with rennet, but the rennet is added not by human hands, but in an automated process by machine, would be considered kasher. Polly-O with the “KD” bore the supervision of an uindistingusihed rabbi who held that the fact the rennet was added by an automated process rendered it not gevinat akum.

” Rav Abadi is a posek in Lakewood. “

According to his web site, he’s been in Jerusalem for a while. Anyways, I asked a friend of mine, who works for the OU, about Rabbi Abadi. He told me that Rabbi Abadi is a tremendous scholar, but lacks industrial kashrut knowledge. The following is an example of that.

I looked at his (really their – including Rabbi Abadi’s sons) web site and found a “teshuva” where he (not sure which one) said that since wine is all processed by machines, then there is no need for “kosher” wines. That answer was dated 2002. I asked a friend of mine about it. This friend is a ger whose family makes non-kosher wines. He told me that they indeed handle the wine, test it, etc. I went back to the web site for further research and found a retraction of that teshuva dated 2003.

Back to the original question. The ideas expressed given by ilovetorah are what I would say.

But with anything that is manufactured, you need a hecksher since manufacturers toss all sorts of stuff as additives.

And if it isn’t really cheese, can you trust a company that is passing off something as cheese which isn’t.

Rabbi Abadi’s distinction is between cheeses that have some kind of rennet (even non-animal rennet) and those that do not. Cheeses that require rennet were subject to the Gezeira and cheeses that do not require rennet were not subject to the Gezeira.

Rav Moshe holds like this as well and I believe (but would like confirmation) this is the shita followed by the OU.

I believe Rabbi Abadi used to be machmir and held that all cheeses were subject to the gezeira of gevinas akum and he only recently (past 8 years or so) changed his mind and to hold like Rav Moshe.

The Nodah Be Yehuda (YD Mah. Tin. 56) was asked about the kashrut status of a certain alcoholic drink that used non-kosher animal meat as part of the production process. He paskened that as the non-kosher ingredient was totally insignificant in the final product and did not add to the taste of the same – the ingredient was considered nullified (batel) and the final product kosher. As to the prohibition of purposefully nullifying a prohibited product- Noda Be Yehuda ruled that as the drink was manufactured by non-Jews for non-Jews – there could not be placed on a non-Jew any prohibition and one only had to look at the final product. If however the product was being manufactured by Jews then the product would be considered not kosher. The Nodah Be Yehuda rules that anything that is permissible be diavad in a Jewish home is permissible le chatchila if produced by a non-Jew for non-Jews.

Many centuries earlier the Rashba dealt with a similar problem. It involved a particular food that used miniscule amounts of non-kosher vinegar in the course of production. The Rashba ruled that the product remained forbidden. He argued that the laws of nullification apply only when an ingredient falls into a product accidentally. If however it was put in on purpose then regardless of the amount and regardless of whether done by Jew or non-Jew the product remains not kosher. Indeed the Nodah Be Yehuda acknowledges the Rashba – but dismisses him. He argues that the Halakha is not like the Rashba but rather like the Rambam(whom the Nodah Be Yehuda posits disagrees with the Rashba.)

Rav Henkin, IIRC, said that this Rashba is the basis for much of the kashrut business nowadays.

In America, though, he said that when you have one brand of an iten under hashgaha and one not under hashgaha, you must buy the one with the hashgaha. The Ktav Sofer said that one may rely on this leniency of the Rambam/Noda beYehuda only when there is no equivalent product available at the same price – but if there is an equivalent product available then one should be machmir and purchase a product that has not relied on this leniency.

If a company is producing a product for the general non-Jewish market, and the company does not request certification nor does it pay for it – but rather allows the kashrut agency to investigate the product and list it as kosher – then Halakhically one may rely on nullification and other leniencies that would normally be allowed only post facto in the home of a Jew, according to Kashrut Authority in Australia.

In other countries, they rely on these kashrut lists. R’ Abadi does exactly that- he investigates items to see if they are really kosher. Furthermore, R’ Shimon Efrati, a top Rabbanut kashrut official, authored an article in Pardes 40: 3 (pp. 12-13) endorsing the same viewpoint as R’ Abadi. In other countries, R’ Abadi’s approach seems to be accepted more or less, as evidenced in the fact that there are companies that consider the kosher market as totally insignificant in places like the UK, Australia, etc. – and they give permission to have their products checked. They expect no significant increase in turnover whatsoever. In such cases nullification may be employed, or at least a less thorough sub ingredient check, as well as some other leniencies mentioned in the poskim, according to an article by Kashrut Authority Australia.

I had a discussion regarding a “K” appearing on items with someone the other day, and it turns out that in a few cases, the K actually indicates some form of rabbinical supervision, but that depends on each company involved. Kellogg’s cereals with a K/KD are really KVH, ShopRite’s kashrut guide lists R’ Dov Hazdan, R’ Sheldon Goldsmith, R’ Benjamin Weinblatt (Plaza Torah Center/Bais Yechezkel in Queens), and even R’ Nota Greenblatt as those who supervise specific items produced by ShopRite. A few gelatin brands even post such letters on their websites (R’ Goldsmith supervises Royal Bbrand gelatin, which relies on the heter of the Ahiezer, which is also how the Rabbanut holds).

I should add that the sources I presented in defense of R’ Abadi’s views are not heterim I personally allow in our home. As the article I paraphrased from Kashrut Authority Australia points out, the position that is taken in other countries with kashrut lists is not something we should avail ourselves of in America, since we have the most exhaustive kosher food available outside of Israel.

That being said, since cheese is often difficult to procure outside of major Jewish areas with a strict hechsher, the mozzarella issue ought to be probed further. However, we’re fortunate that the Polly-O company has gone under the OU. Cabot and all the brands with the Luhot is another matter entirely.

I don’t know of one Reform or other non-halakhic rabbi offering kashrut supervision in this country. Ii’ve actually started compiling a list of items with a K where the K is actually indicative of rabbinic supervision.

Why was it considered acceptable to rely on reading ingredients 40-50 years ago by very frum people, but not so much anymore? Is it because of the huge array of items with a hechsher available nowadays?

That is one reason given, but apparently, this method still is deemed appropriate by rabbis in foreign countries, where their food is just as processed as it is here. How did and why did the Rashba’s shita become de rigueur? Why does nobody hold like the Noda be Yehuda here these days (except Rav Abadi and maybe a few others)? Largely in America, this is irrelevant, since I’d say that at least 70-80% of processed food items have some kind of a hechsher (whether it be one of the Big Five, a K that actually has rabbinical supervision behind it, such as R’ Greenblatt on hot sauce, or R’ Zevulun Charlop on Starbuck’s drinks, or R’ Goldsmith on Royal gelatin, or a hechsher that is less respected by the olam, such as the Luchot K, UKS, Triangle K, etc.)

If you hold like the OP or like Rav Abadi that cheeses made with an automated system aren’t gevinat akum, than that would obviously open the floodgates.

I’ve heard that, as well, that in Belgium, if a vendor only sells frites, than a Jew could eat there. In India, the Hindus are strict vegetarians. I was referring to factory production, but otoh, I did recently see an article which said that certain additives and chemicals used in our processed foods are not permitted for use in countries like the UK, where the idea of foods without a hechsher but with rabbinical endorsement is prevalent.

There are certain vegan food items that are produced in America without a hechsher that I’d like some kashrut rabbis to look into. There are artisanal vegan cheeses, vegan Field Roast, May Wah meat substitutes, and other items that would be very convenient if available kosher. Likewise, items like almond flour, coconut flour, tapioca-based GF baking mixes, etc. should be investigated, as having these kitniyot-free items available for Passover would make life far easier (imagine having a decent loaf of Gluten Free bread as an option on Pesah, instead of matzah at every meal).

“In a word, any food product that is marketed with the hechsher of a rabbi, whether Haredi or Zionist, whether from Eretz Yisrael or from abroad, is kosher.”

Interesting….

I hereby announce, that effective immediately, I am hanging out my shingle and offering a new kosher supervision under the name Rabbi Apushatayid. According to the website cited, you should have no problem relying on my supervision, since I am a) a Rabbi (I sent away 17 box tops and received my certification last week), b)Haredi and Zionist (which is surely better than haredi or zionist) and c) I am either from Israel, or abroad (on my letter head I will use one address from E’Y and one from abroad to cover all my bases). You will find my certification on everything from agar to ziti and everything in between. B’Teiavon.

apushatayid, I have news for you. Your kosher supervision has been in business for a while and everybody who has ever eaten in your home has relied on it.

Also please note, you dont need to be a Rabbi. The din is not “Rav echad neeman bissurim”

Also keep in mind. If food is kosher there is no need for a formal hechsher, and if not all hechsherim in the world won’t help.

I hold like you do. It’s important to eat matzah each day of Pesah. However, that doesn’t mean that matzah is the only food that should be eaten; many frum Jews don’t even eat anything made from matzah. There’s no good reason why a widely-available, lower-priced GF KFP bread couldn’t be made available to the public. And not the KFP bread products made from potato starch that cost $10 a loaf nowadays. Some Sephardic rabbis allow us to eat Udi’s GF bread on Pesah, anyways. No reason why a bread made from tapioca or coconut flour couldn’t be marketed to the public for Pesah.

Also keep in mind. If food is kosher there is no need for a formal hechsher

The question is how to know it’s kosher.

How did and why did the Rashba’s shita become de rigueur? Why does nobody hold like the Noda be Yehuda here these days (except Rav Abadi and maybe a few others)?

Those that hold like the Noda B’Yehdah aren’t in the Kashrus industry.

apushtayid: According to R’ Schachter and many others, gluten-free oat Matzah is not Halachically bread (or Matzah) and one cannot make Hamotzi and Al Achilas Matzah on it.

“According to R’ Schachter and many others, gluten-free oat Matzah is not Halachically bread (or Matzah) and one cannot make Hamotzi and Al Achilas Matzah on it.”

If the gluten free oat matzah isn’t bread or matzah, then oats are not one of the five grains and we can eat oatmeal on Pesach!

Those same shittos are maikel for those who have gluten sensitivity, such as those who have celiac and will get sick from eating any other matza.

apushatayid

why would that change anything?

The halacha is eid echad neeman biisurim. You seem trustworthy, if you tell me that food is kosher then I can eat it. (of course if you dont know what you are talking about, or have no neemanus,that is a different story).

GF matza squares aren’t what I had in mind. If you know anyone on the Paleo diet, or anyone who eats GF bread made by Udi’s or Katz’s, you know what I am talking about. An actual loaf of sliced bread that you can eat sandwiches on, and tat generally can be used like bread. The GF breads don’t currently have a KFP hashgacha (although Rav Abadi says that Udi’s bread is fine for Passover); the issue could be that they use kitniyot derivatives (there are no actual kitniyot in them, since R’ Abadi says that Ashkenazim could eat it). Cross-contamination with hametz couldn’t be much of a concern, since the company would lose its credibility among celiac sufferers and would be subjected to lawsuits galore. (Recall that for many Sephardim, they hold that there is bitul hametz before Pesach, even le chatchila, and that they aren’t concerned; I just don’t have the industrial knowledge to know what it is in that GF bread that causes it not to be KFP).

As someone who has known Rav Abadi for many years, I’d be very surprised to know that he ever mattered all wines. I’ve personally asked him staam yainum shaalos and he has never just said o all wines are fine. It is possible that the website, which belongs to his sons, made an error. This has happened in the past (see oats on pesach, bugs in water, tehillim for choleh), but i would be shocked if Rav Abadi ever held that way personally. You may be confusing his wine psak with his grape juice psak.

Also, Rav Abadi lived in Israel for many years, but has since moved back to lakewood.

I can personally corroborate these statements. Except for the part about newhere knowing Rabbi Abadi, because I do not know who newhere is.

“R’ Schachter says it’s not Chametz D’oraisa”

It takes a big gedol to pasken against a universally accepted Rashi (at least by Ashkenazim) but I am certainly not one to argue with R’Schachter!

I’ll wait for Pesachdik oatmeal then, lol.

apush: Fair enough. I was just enlightening you, not attempting to change what you hold. Rav Schachter (along with a sizable chunk of other Rabbonim) holds that gluten content is what makes something Chametz. Thus, gluten-free Matzah is an inherent contradiction.