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I have heard that one is not allowed to listen to music until the morning of Lag Ba’omer. If this is the case than how is it ok to have music at bonfires at night? In Meiron there are MAJOR parties with Rebbe’s and all. It’s hard for me to accept that what they are doing is Assur. The only Heter that I’ve heard that allows music at night is if you’re actually AT the bonfire but I have yet to find a Maareh Makom for that. What’s the deal??
I heard in the name of a certain adam gadol, “Sefirah is a minhag, and this is the minhag”
After you finish shas twice, then ask the question.
YW fan
there are many minhagim with sefira. some keep from begginign until LAg baomer some until Lad Ba’aomer some from Rosh chodesh until then end etc.
(as an aside “listening to music” is a later addition to the minhag as well though dancing is brought earlier so your point stands)
Similarly there are many minhagim with Lag Baomer. According to the Mechaber there is no dancing at all not by day nor night. According to the Mishna berura’s understanding of the Remah you are right about Lag baomer night. But not everyone agrees (MB also brings cholkim that haircuts are allowed at night, no reason for haircuts to be different than music)
in short all of sefira is based on minhagim, and there are different minhagim
@Meno, מחבר ספר שו”ת יח”ת?
This is a commonly discussed machlokes between litvishe roshei yeshiva, who discourage talmidim from attending bonfires at night with music for this exact reason.
I can fetch some teshuvos later imyh
Chasidim hold that already at night the restrictions on music stop, but they ageee that you can’t take haircuts until the following day
The S”A does not mention music at all. So what’s the question bichlal?
YW Fan-Piskei Halacha from R’Moishe Dovid Lebvics (Psakim of R’Belsky Zatzal) says what you’re thinking of. I don’t have it in front of me but I believe he writes bshem R’Belsky Zatzal that In the Zchus of R’Shimon Bar Yochai music and singing at bonfires are fine but music in general the night of Lag b’ome r(like listening to music at home) is not allowed.
In Meron, you should follow minhagim of Rashbi, not of your shell. He didn’t listen to music from a box for sure
One of the reasons for the disagreements relating to music on Lag Baomer night is the thought behind what the day represents. Some opinions hold that we have to keep 33 days of Aveilus. On the 33rd day, we can say that half the day is considered as the entire thing, so we wait until morning. Lag Baomer’s function according to this opinion is just the end of the aveilus.
Another opinion is that Lag Baomer itself has a status of a quasi Yom Tov, where aveilus is forbidden. According to that opinion, you can listen to music at night.Yabia, i suppose all the poskim who say that we don’t listen to music during sefirah just didn’t know that the shu”a doesn’t mention it – thank you for bringing it to their attention.
I honestly do not know the answer to your good question, however, I can bear witness to the fact that I met HaGaon HaRav Moshe Feinstein ztvk”l at a wedding the night of Lag B’Omer!
Aveirah, the S”A doesn’t mention it. What else do you want?
Aveirah, the S”A doesn’t mention it. What else do you want?
He wants you to recognize that the fact that the Shu”a doesn’t mention it doesn’t mean it’s not assur to listen to music during sefirah.
Yabia,
Is it possible that the reason the shulchan aruch didn’t mention it, is because there was (is) an issur to listen to music the whole year (gittin 7a)?
RBZS, so you do know the answer. Witnessing Rav’s behavior is one of the major ways to learn the halakha. It is a wrong idea that learning have to be from books, it is preferred to learn it from T’Ch – unless you suspect that R Moshe was under duress, or it was a wedding of a princess, or R Moshe (H’V) is disqualified by the virtue of having a bas going to college, or a bas bito learning Gemora L’A.
You know what? Forget the Gemara doesn’t mention music. Nor do the Geonim. Nor does the Rambam. What do you guys went?
“You know what? Forget the Gemara doesn’t mention music. Nor do the Geonim. Nor does the Rambam. What do you guys went?“
Can you restate your post in the form of a question
“You know what? Forget the Shulchan Aruch. The Gemara doesn’t mention music. Nor do the Geonim. Nor does the Rambam. What do you guys want?“
AAQ, of course you are right, and I do know the halacha, having seen Reb Moshe at the wedding. There is no greater indication of halacha than ma’aseh rav.
However, the Chofetz Chaim writes in his introduction to the Mishneh Berurah, that, in addition to knowing the halacha, one should try to know the reason behind it. And that is what I said I do not know.“You know what? Forget the Shulchan Aruch. The Gemara doesn’t mention music. Nor do the Geonim. Nor does the Rambam. What do you guys want?“
The Rambam was of the shittah that music is always assur until the Beis Hamikdash returns, I believe. It came up once when learning the Yalkut Yosef where I think he asks exactly the questions you’re asking, and concludes that even if there is no real inyan of avoiding music during sefira (or maybe it was 3 weeks?), then you’re just being choshesh for the Rambam during these times, which is a good thing.
The points you’re making aren’t as insane as everyone is making them out, but they also aren’t as brilliant as you think. These have been addressed before and I really wish I could cite where it was in the Yalkut Yosef, but this was like 5 years ago so I couldn’t even begin to remember.
RBZS, see here https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/308078/haircuts-on-the-night-of-lag-baomer.html
Rav Moshe Feinstein zt”l, however, argued against the Mshna Brurah’s position and allowed for weddings on the night of Lag BaOmer even if it did not fall out on a Thursday night. He writes that one can rely upon the lenient view – especially for one who has not yet fulfilled the Mitzvah of Pru uRvu.I would think with the state of the world today, that there are more important things to worry about than when one can listen to music.
I’m not saying to listen to music during sefira. I don’t listen to music at that period. But it’s mitaam minhag, not mitaam halacha. My point is that people need to be educated.
I just wonder why 33 days of mourning for 24000 and zero for 6 million
Could be that davka in the state the world is today, some people need music to calm their nerves and they want to know if it is permissible or not.
I am writing from Eretz Yisrael where my little grandchildren just ran into a makolet because the sirens sounded in Beit Shemesh just as they were returning home from cheder.“I would think with the state of the world today, that there are more important things to worry about than when one can listen to music.”
There are also more important things to worry about than whether or not we can eat pork, but it doesn’t mean that we should. You can “worry” about more than one thing at the same time.“But it’s mitaam minhag, not mitaam halacha. My point is that people need to be educated.”
It wasn’t clear that that was your point. The whole concept of minhagei aveilus during sefira is technically a minhag, albeit minhag klal Yisroel. I’ve heard people unironically make the case that they are Baal Teshuvos, therefore they have no minhagei avos, therefore they don’t have to keep sefira minhagim at all. This is the risk of going around telling people it’s “just a minhag.” Most learned people already know, and many unlearned people would misunderstand the meaning.“I just wonder why 33 days of mourning for 24000 and zero for 6 million”
You could say stuff like this about virtually everything we do. I’m personally happy not having a Holocaust-centric religion, but if you want to carve out another 33 days somewhere else in the year you can give it a shot and see if it catches on.Believe me, I think we already have too many depressing days and am not advocating 33 days for the Holocaust. I’m just contrasting the rwo in how they are treated. Why weren’t the 24000 students swept into Tisha B’Av?
I didn’t say it’s JUST a minhag. I said it’s mitaam minhag.
The whole thing is odd. The first mention of the 24,000 doesn’t appear in the Gemorah until 100 t0 200 years after it occurred. It doesn’t answer how Rabbi Akiva supported or taught 24,000 students ( and presumably their families ). If how they treated each other was the reason, why didn’t Rabbi Akiva act to correct it?
Anon, entire episodes of chumash, tanach and bayis sheni aren’t mentioned until zman hagemara either. Many medrashim were written by amoraim, and the gemara itself has hundreds of stories about past events. The Mishnah doesn’t even mention the story of Chanukah.
So i really don’t understand your point about the mishnah not mentioning the talmidim of rebbe Akiva.
But your other point, of why we have a minhag for this tragedy and not others, i believe can be explained this way: seforim say that each of these talmidim were on the level of a tanna themselves. Think about what a loss it is when 24,000 tannaim, bekiim in shas, huge people, all are gone in 33 days. Imagine the national mourning, the state of shock and horror that klal yisroel was in during that time… Remember, our heros and leaders, all that we look to as important, were the talmidei chachamim.
This was a nation that was just exiled and stripped of its pride, the beis hamikdash, their homes, their parnosa, with many dead. All they had were the chachamim to give them life. And now they were dying everyday.
And they weren’t just dying everyday. They were dying during a joyous time. A time when we prepare for an annual kabolas hatorah. A time when our eyes are drawn heavenward, counting up and up and climbing the rungs of a ladder to Hashem.
And no one knew why! These were big tzadikim.
No one knew until chachamim later explained it.
No nahagu kovod ze lazeh! What does that mean? Were they nasty to each other? Of course not! The baalei musar say that it was very hard to see it. They would refer to each other by name, without saying Rav. They were too “heimish” and didn’t recognize that despite their friendship, they must honor the Torah inside them, which a chacham is not allowed to be mochel.
This answers your other question of went rebbe Akiva didn’t intervene. It was subtle, imperceivable, to all but Hashem.
And that’s why we mourn during sefirah.
Dear Avira,
If the basis of your essay came from the gemara that would be possible. But most of the details that serve as your critical sources are not mentioned at all in shas. I don’t know what going on with all this. And would love solid answers. Your piece, – while mainstream, is not enough for me.
Nom, torah she baal peh is more than the simple reading of shas; there’s universes of torah in rishonim and achronim. There’s a mesorah which you only get from rebbeim, and that’s how my Rebbeim explained sefirah to me.
עבירה,
He’s asking a legitimate question. What’s the source,?
YO, he didn’t ask for a source, he said it’s not convincing because it’s not in the gemara. If you want sources, i can find them; it’s all over seforim like daas torah, sichos mussar, etc. . Nom is right that it’s the mainstream understanding of it
Dear Avira,
Are you satisfied with this explanation?
There is a hole in your mesorah. You didn’t mention the Geonim. And this discussion has it’s origins with them. I’m just saying that I don’t know. And Lag Baomer itself, is even more vague.
I hold of these restrictions because that was the mesorah passed down to me . But I do recognize that a lot of it is spotty when it comes to the Gemara and later.
@yw fan
בשו”ע [או”ח סי’ תצ”ג] כתב וז”ל נוהגים שלא לישא אשה בין פסח לעצרת עד ל”ג לעומר מפני שבאותו זמן מתו תלמידי רבי עקיבא אבל לארס ולקדש שפיר דמי עכ”ל. וכתב המג”א [ס”ק א’] וז”ל אבל לעשות ריקודין ומתולות של רשות נהגו לאסור ונראה לי דאף מי שעשה שדוכים אסור לעשות רקודין ומתולות עכ”ל.ובהליכות שלמה [פי”א אות י”ד] כ’ וז”ל יש להמנע בימים אלה מכל שירה המעוררת לריקוד ומחול, אבל שירה המרוממת את האדם אך אינה מביאתו לריקוד ומחול מותרת עכ”ל. היינו, דאיסור כלי שיר הוא משום שמביא לידי ריקוד. ולפרטי דינים עי’ בפוסקים.
ועכשיו יש לדון שהרי ידוע המנהג בכלל ישראל להקל בריקודים וכלי שיר ביום ל”ג לעומר להילולא דרשב”י. ויש לדון האם זה אמת ג”כ בלילה של ל”ג. והי’ נראה לומר, שיהא כשאר דינים המובא ברמ”א שמתחילים רק ביום ע”י מקצת היום ככולו. וצריך עיון על הני שנוהגין בריקודים וכלי שיר גם בלילה.
וי”ל משום מצוה. אלא דצ”ע שהרי המ”ב כ’ לענין נישואין שהוא מצוה, שצריך להמתין עד היום .
ובשו”ת יחוה דעת [חלק ג סימן ל] כ’ וז”ל בסיכום: מותר להיכנס לדירה חדשה בימי הספירה, ואף מותר לצייר ולסייד הדירה, או לעשות טפטים לנוי. אך יש להימנע בהחלט משמיעת כלי שיר דרך הרדיו בימים אלו, ולכל הפחות עד ל”ג בעומר. עכ”ל. ולא פירש במה מתחיל ל”ג בעומר. ובילקוט יוסף [קצוש”ע יורה דעה הלכות הקשורות לחנוכת הבית] כתב וז”ל אולם יש להמנע משמיעת כלי שיר, אף דרך הרדיו וטייפ, בסעודת חינוך הבית, עד ליל ל”ג בעומר. עכ”ל.
ובשו”ת שבט הלוי [חלק ח סימן קסח] כתב וז”ל ענין המוזכר בפוסקים לענין דאסור להסתפר בליל ל”ג בעומר יראה דגם לענין שמיעת כלי שיר כ”ה, ופשוט דלאלו שעושין נשואין בליל ל”ג גם כלי שיר מותר עכ”ל. ויל”ע מה הדין בשמיעת כלי שיר סתם.
שוב מצאתי כתב בספר שער המועדים דרבים נוהגים לעלות לציון רשב”י במירון בל”ג בעומר ומתפללים ולומדים ושמחים שם בריקודים ומחולות ואף בלילה נוהגים כן ויש שהורו שבני תורה העוסקים בתורה לא יבטלו מלימודם בל”ג בעומר לצורך זה . וכ’ עוד וז”ל ואע”פ שלענין תספורת ונשואין מחמירים לכתחלה ליל ל”ג בעומר מ”מ לכבוד הילולא דרשב”י נוהגים להדליק מדורות ולרקוד ולשיר כידוע, וכן שמעתי מהגר”ח קניבסקי שליט”א. וכן צידד בס’ חוט שני [שבת ח”ד עמ ש”פ ע”ש]. והטעם י”ל דחשיב כמו ריקודים של מצוה. ומ”מ סתם ריקודים וכלי זמר של רשות שאין להם שייכות להילולא דרשב”י לא מצאנו היתר בליל ל”ג בעומר רק ביום. וכן כתב לי הרה”ג אברהם וויזנפעלד שליט”א בתשובה בענין זה.
אמנם בהליכות אבן ישראל [מועדים א ימי ספירת העומר אות ט”ו] כ’ וז”ל ליל ל”ג בעומר מותר בשמיעת כלי שיר עכ”ל. משמע אפי’ סתם. ויל”ע.
שוב שאלתי הרה”ג רב דניאל נוישטט שליט”א והשיב לי וז”ל ההיתר מבוסס על שיטת האחרונים שלא צריך מקצת היום לגבי ל”ג בעומר, והביא שיטה זו במשנ”ב סקי”א בשם מי”ט וא”ר, ובשע”צ הביא שיש לסמוך ע”ז, ואף שפקפק לגבי נישואין, אבל לגבי ריקודין ומחולות של רשות יש לצדד להקל, ואף שהרמ”א כנראה שמקיל רק ביום ל”ג בעומר ולא מבערב, אבל באמת זה לא מוכרח בשיטתו, כי הוא סובר שאומרים תחנון במנחה של ל”ב, ולכן אין להקל בערב, אבל לדידן דלא אומרים תחנה במנחה, א”כ מותר כבר מבערב וכמש”כ בבאר היטב להדיא, ועיין ג”כ בשע”ת בשם המו”ק שמתיר בליל ל”ג, ועפי”ז נוסד המנהג להקל.
וכתב לי הרה”ג אברהם וויזנפעלד שליט”א בתשובה הרב ווזנר (שבט הלוי כרך ח סימן קס”ח) כותב שמאחר שהפוסקים כותבים שאיסור להסתפר בזמן הספירה נמשך עד בוקר ל”ג בעומר, איסור האזנה למוזיקה יחול גם עד הבוקר. (הפוסקים שמתירים חתונה בליל ל”ג בעומר ודאי מתירים מוזיקה בחתונה). אף על פי כן, נראה כי מנהג רווח בקרב רבים להאזין למוזיקה בליל ל”ג בעומר, ומומלץ שמכיוון שמותר להאזין בחתונות בלילה, כך גם כל מוזיקה שהיא למצווה מותרת, ול”ג בעומר חגיגות עשויות להיחשב כשמחת מצווהfor full write-up wit haaros u can email me at [email protected]
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