August 31, 2010 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #694250
As I said before, if you don’t believe the notion that there are far more participants then chairs entering the game each year then i won’t try to change you mind.
Clearly you don’t believe/accept it.
That’s your prerogative.August 31, 2010 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #694252
AZ: I forgot, the purpose of this forum is for you to perpetuate the age gap myth. I will make sure not to write anything that explodes that myth.
Now. This may come as a surprise to you (it shouldnt if you would actually read what I wrote) but we actually agree. The way the system is set up today, there ARE to many players for the number of chairs. Here is where we differ. You believe it has to do with the age gap. I believe it is because of the warped system that has evolved in the last 15-20 years. To take your analogy one step further. Everybody wants to play on center court, not some outer side court, therefore all players push and shove their way into the main arena for a chance to play on center court. The problem is, not enough equipment for everyone to play at the same time, so the equipment keeps getting used (and some eventually is claimed and taken home by the players), while some potential players ssit on the sidelines and watch. We should either bring in enough equipment for all players to play at the same time, OR ask some players to play in the outer courts. Under our warped system, where every boy is the best in his yeshiva as long as he precisely fits a specific mold, all such equipment is brought onto the center court. All other equipment that doesnt precisely fir the mold is relegated to the outer courts, if that. All players, naturally want the best equipment and in fact have been indoctrinated that they must only use equipment that comes from a specific mold, so they all flock to center court where that equipment is located.
Since we reject way to much equipment from center court and invite any and all players to center court, we have a glut of players. There is plenty of equipment that nobody wants to use.
It is our warped mentality that has created this situation. Not hashem and the number of males and females he has born each year.August 31, 2010 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #694253
i’m not sure i follow you argument. But I think you are claiming that there are plenty and plenty of chairs (boys) still out there just they aren’t in center court and the players/participants (girls) all insist only on center court boys….
In a nutshell I posited that the boys are by and large ALL getting married. I think you deny that.
I have one question
Where are all those boys hiding… No one seems to be able to find them. Sure there are some older boys around but where are the masses and masses of non center court boys you talk about.August 31, 2010 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #694254
“No one seems to be able to find them.”
Nobody is looking for them. If people would take off their blinders and look around they will find plenty. I see them every day at the 6:30am shachris and the shiur that preceeded it. On the subway to and from work. At mincha in a midtown office. At the late night daf yomi shiur and maariv. Grocery shopping. In a pizza shop or restaurant.August 31, 2010 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #694255
I won’t bother arguing with you. Perhaps you have data from boys HS graduating classes boys who would now be 27-32 (dating 5-10) years. Please show us the masses of chairs who are still single.August 31, 2010 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #694256
I told you where to look for them. Walk away from your keyboard and start looking.August 31, 2010 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #694257
And I guess the data from the Boys HS alumni lists listed them as married incorrectly.August 31, 2010 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #694258
Pushata yid (who is obviously nisht azoi pushit)
And AZ –
The same people who put together the girls data, should be able to get the same info on the boysAugust 31, 2010 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #694260
AZ. I dont know what data you are talking about. Data can be manipulated and massaged to say anything you want it to. I told you that there are plenty of boys available, if only people would consider them. I told you where to look for them. I cant help you, if you refuse to get up and look.August 31, 2010 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #694261
and what if i told you that I and tens of shadchanim have been looking and looking and asking and searching and they still haven’t been found en masse……August 31, 2010 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #694262popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Where are all those boys hiding… No one seems to be able to find them. Sure there are some older boys around but where are the masses and masses of non center court boys you talk about.
AZ: What are you talking about?
I am willing to grant that there is an age gap and that it could be a contributing factor.
However, there are many, many, older single guys. I see them every day. Denying that puts you in an odd position in this discussion.August 31, 2010 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #694263
We need also not be super-focused on the “older single guys” either. There are dozens of non “a++ super cool best bocher” bochurim, that are just fine young men, that are quite suitable for their girl counterparts among us.
The problem is, shadchanim (and to some extent parents) think their chils (either gender) is a++ super cool best boy/girl, wether its the case or not. And heaven forbid,someone to suggest anything less than 5-10 years support (or agree to w-o-r-k shortly after marriage) and that shidduch goes down the drain.
Do we have a shidduch crisis? Yes, sort of. Can we fix it? You bet we can!August 31, 2010 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #694264
Yagati, Vlo Matzasi, Al Taamin. Although in the case of the tens and tens of shadchanim, I readily believe it. They are looking in the wrong places.I told you where they can be found.August 31, 2010 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #694265
Aposhutayid: Are all these older boys you’re refering to really interested in getting married?? then what’s taking them so long?? maybe they’re picky about girls’ looks?? maybe they’re fishing too much in the market of young 19-20 year old girls whom appeal more to them??
And, if you can ‘claim’ that you know some of these boys pesonally enough to attest that at least a’few’ of them are not picky at all and are just waiting for a shadchan to call them with a name of a decent older single who’s ready to go out with them; then there is obviously ‘issues’ with these particular boys that are hindering their ability to getting dates with decent girls. Do you suggest that some older single girls should be set up and marry these few boys with real ‘issues’??September 1, 2010 1:07 am at 1:07 am #694266popa_bar_abbaParticipant
lomed mkol haadam:
Are you trying to conclude that any older single guy has “real issues”?
Really?September 1, 2010 1:34 am at 1:34 am #694267Ben TorahParticipant
AZ, are you maintaining that there is NOT a significant population of older never married guys? Is your position that the “shidduch crisis” is a female-only issue?
I’m not sure how you can miss the significant population of never married older guys. Unless I’m not understanding your position correctly.September 1, 2010 1:30 pm at 1:30 pm #694268
PBA/ Ben Torah
I am maintaining that the number of older single girls DWARFS by the hundreds and hundreds (if not thousands the number of older single guys). THAT is a direct result of it not having been a level playing field at any time.
For sure there are older single guys and there will always be individuals who have difficulty finding their zivug. However the massive discrepancy is what i refer to when discussing the shidduch tragedy.September 1, 2010 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #694269
Popa bar abba: You didn’t read my post correctly, I stated that the majority of this ‘group’ of older single guys are most probably picky about girls’ looks and this is the major contributing factor as to why they are still around. I additionally stated that a minority of this group are not picky at all and most probably this is due to some ‘issues’ that they have. Of course there are a tiny few in this group that are neither picky nor have any issues, but they are definitely very few of such boys within this group of older single boys.September 1, 2010 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #694270Ben TorahParticipant
LMA: According to your theory, of the older male singles a majority are picky, and the minority which is not picky have issues. Yet the older single girls are peachy keen?September 1, 2010 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #694271
Ben Torah: There is a minority of the large group of older girls that are around because they were once picky about the type of boy they were looking for, however, the majority of this very large group (about 3-4x larger than the size of group of older boys) are around simply because they are not as appealing/attractive in looks like the other girls who have gotten married – like average looking girls; and the number descrepency forces them to be the unlucky ones who are pushed up to being matched up with the much smaller (3-4x) market of older single picky/issues boys.September 1, 2010 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #694272
LMA/BT/PBA: If there are say 300 older chairs and 1300 older participants (not accurate numbers just a illustration) then your discussion/debate will focus on how to have 300 of the girls and 300 of the boys married, clearly very worthwhile and helpful. In fact every one of the 300 participants has a shot at landing a chair.
HOWEVER, any way you slice it, it’s painfully obvious that 1000 of the participants are stuck.September 1, 2010 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #694273gavra_at_workParticipant
I don’t have numbers on me, but do you think/know if there are more boys or girls going off/becoming less shomer mitzvos?
I can think of many older frum girls who need spouses (and not many girls who went off/less), but know many boys who would make good husbands, but they may not be “up to par” for the girls (for example, they may not be shomer negiyah, or may not daven with a minyan, or will not learn every day, or may not even keep shabbos).
Any stats there?
And I’m not disagreeing with the age gap. But the problem can also be solved incrementally, by (hypothetically) adding 10% more chairs 5 times, we have gotten 50% of the girls married.September 1, 2010 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #694274
Simple. Move on to the next room (out of town, not of your “kreis”, working instead of learning, ect) where a different round of chairs are waiting to be occupied.
You’d be pleasntly surprised how big a selection there is,if you’re flexible. But sadly, AZ you are right; if every single insists on “the best bocher in BMG” there is a crisis indeedSeptember 1, 2010 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #694275
The last 5-6 posts basicly sum it all up. Some simply assume all older guys have issues, and are therefore excluded from the dating pool by default, while others just dont see what everyone else sees. Some exclude guys from the dating pool even when they are younger because of perceived issues such as gasp, the color of his shirt and others because, gasp, when they were 22 realized that sitting in a yeshiva all day was not productive for them and was not helping them grow as yidden in any way, while others might have been eliminated straight up because they wanted to attend college so that they could support their families one day.
AZ: In your last example, the 1000 girls WILL in fact remain without a partner precisely because the 1000 guys who have been labeled as “issues” have been eliminated.
The ribbono shel olam has prepared a shidduch for every male and female born. It is the fault of our society that we chose to eliminate a good number of males (females too, but to a lesser degree) due to our own decisions. If you want to find a shidduch for all your girls going round and round desperately trying to find a chair for their weary feet, bring more chairs into the auditorium. No, the chair may not have been manufactured by Rosh Yeshivas R Us, or by Best Bachur in the Yeshiva Inc, but they do come from solidly reliable manufacturers such as Lomdei Torah, Baale Middos and Yirah Shmayim LLC or Real Masmid (who is only second best in the chabura)Inc. For some reason, all the girls have been taught and all shadchanim have perpetuated the myth, that one may only purchase chairs from Rosh Yeshivas R Us and Best Bachur In the Yeshiva Inc., and while many girls manage to purchase chairs from their choice manufacturer, the supply is limited and while these choice chairs are constantly in production, supply is limited AND these girls who are going in circles suddenly find more girls added to the circle making hakafos with them and the cycle repeats itself, year after year after year. The myth of the exclusive manufacturer is perpetuated again, and again and again. Some girls grow weary of going in circles and move onto the other manufacturers, while others just go round and round and round. They do this despite seeing and hearing from their friends that the “other” manufcturers produce high quality furniture, so high quality, that many claim better than their original choices. However, these girls insist that going in circles waiting for that perfect chair, because someone drilled it into her head that these manufacturers are exclusives, all other poor quality. they end up going round and round, growing older and more tired. My proposed solution, is to explode the myth of the exclusive manufacturer.September 1, 2010 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #694276
“I stated that the majority of this ‘group’ of older single guys are most probably picky about girls’ looks and this is the major contributing factor as to why they are still around.”
With comments such as this, is it any wonder we have a problem?September 1, 2010 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #694277
GAW: what do you mean by adding 10% more chairs 5x. that sounds interesting. how do you propose bringing that about?
GAW: some work has been done to see if the numbers of boys/girls “going off” are significantly out of wack.
To clarify for the purpose of these discussions going off means -and not getting married in the normal orthodox scene. If a individual boy/girl has R”L a rough few years and by 20/23 whatever is back in the scene B”H, then for the purposes of our discussions it is not relevant what took place earlier.
To answer your question: To date no concrete hard data has been shown. Insights from people who actively deal with the at risk situation seem split as to whether the problem is roughly equal or more boys R”L are becoming and staying irreligous, but it doesn’t seem like anyone has do date done a real study. It would be a great help if you would be able to cull that info together. It is very possible that this issue further diminishes the available chairs vis a vis the participants making thus an already cruel game even worse. However no one thinks or has any reason to believe that the numbers of boys staying irreligious is anywhere remotely near the the number of extra participants.
BP: If only you were correct. You seem to argue that the girls are saying no etc. the result should thus been masses of older single boys who never go a fair shake from the girls.I won’t debate you, i’ll only say that info on the ground doesn’t support your theory.September 1, 2010 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #694278gavra_at_workParticipant
GAW: what do you mean by adding 10% more chairs 5x. that sounds interesting. how do you propose bringing that about?
It just means that incremental solutions are also good, even if they don’t “solve” the crisis, because it lessens the impact, which is also good.September 1, 2010 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #694280
GAW: Of course! The 3 ideas i presented are exactly that. if you have other effective idea how to increase the chairs by 10% each year please share them.September 1, 2010 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #694281
apashutayid: “With comments such as this, is it any wonder we have a problem?”
You take issue with my open discussion of the pyschological reality of older boys and consider me defaming them, yet you have no problem with defaming the hundreds of older girls who are out there waiting desperately to get a ‘yes’ from a regular normal older guy, by stating your unfounded/rediculous judgment on them that they are all picky and holding out for a better quality boy!
Yes, there are some girls who are/once were picky about the caliber of the boy they were searching for as I stated above, however, the majority of these hundreds of girls were just looking for a boy from a similar family background like their own, and the obvious reason we should attribute for the very high number of these girls being leftover in parallel to the much smaller pool of corresponding older boys, is naturally the scientific reason of the age gap factor, especially since this problem is actually happening across the board by both the families/girls whom naturally match with/are looking for the full time learning boy, AND also, in the same way, by the families/girls whom naturally match with/looking for the serious college/learning boys.September 1, 2010 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #694282
Lomed. Please start with reading comprehension.
I said nothing about the “pyschological reality” of girls, or boys. I was speaking about the reality that has become “the system”. I am taking issue with the system, not those who try to conform to the system.
“and the obvious reason we should attribute for the very high number of these girls being leftover in parallel to the much smaller pool of corresponding older boys, is naturally the scientific reason of the age gap factor”
Funny how science seems to ignore the ribbono shel olam once again. I guess that those who subscribe to this science must believe that when these girls were born, no Bas Kol was heard “Bas Ploni LiPloni”, they were simply skipped over, for whatever reason. Perhaps these scientists will still find the reason the Bas Kol ignored these girls.September 1, 2010 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #694283
aposhutayid: Of course each individual older girl on her own accord should have bitochon and do her own hishtadlus to find her zivug, however, as a ‘klal’ we must take on ourselves the responsibilty to be aware of the problem affecting the ‘klal’ and do the hishtadlus necessary so that the future crop of girls shouldn’t have to continue to face this serious problem. When we, as a community, see or even suspect a serious problem, we dare not ignore it on the grounds of emunah/bitochon, because that would border on the transgression of ‘lo taamod al dam rei’echa’.September 2, 2010 1:24 am at 1:24 am #694287
Lomed. Nobody disagrees with your last post. The disagreement is with the identification of the problem and how to fix it.
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