Natural-Hair Sheitels Are Assur

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  • #1399662

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “the reason for the pony tail”

    My daughters school says it is to help keep lice and nits in check, in case one of the girls were to come to school with it.

    As for dancingmom and her/his (why assume) sources. At the end of the day, the gemara in sanhedrin very clearly states that a womans “peah nachris” is just another one of her articles of clothing. Just like a woman must be careful in the clothing she wears on her torso, so to must she on her head. If your way of controlling the clothing you wear on your head is to simply avoid certain types of clothing, go for it. I for one wont tell you how to conduct yourself in this area, and in fact, encourage you to do whatever you feel you must do for yourself (along with healthy input from your rav and spouse, not necessarily in that order). please do not impose your hanhagos on others, especially if they are following legitimate halachic sources.

    #1399674

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    A mesorah can change over time…..one metric of that change is how a large segment of the Tzibur evolves in their observance, as informed by their own rebbeim and poskim. This is not the exclusive form of change, and we could have a one-time edict from all gadoyley yisroel that a change in mesorah is required. However, the inyan of ervah/tzinius with respect to a sheitel vs. snood vs. tichel etc. is materially different from debating whether our mesorah includes eating chicken A versus chicken B.

    #1399679

    apushatayid
    Participant

    ” it was short, stiff, and wiggy-looking.”

    And yet, as Rashi says, they wore it “linoy”, to beautifuy themselves. Does it make sense they wore something “short, stiff, and wiggy-looking.” to beautify themselves?

    #1399688

    Joseph
    Participant

    And yet, as Rashi says, they wore it “linoy”, to beautifuy themselves. Does it make sense they wore something “short, stiff, and wiggy-looking.” to beautify themselves?

    Sure. Compared to a bald head or even compared to plain cloth head covering, a short, stiff, and wiggy-looking covering is a beautification.

    Besides, the standards for beautification within the confines of one’s home is different than what is permissible in the streets outside one’s home.

    #1399687

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Just as modern wigs were only invented recently, so was the modern ponytail.

    #1399684

    Joseph
    Participant

    encourage you to do whatever you feel you must do for yourself (along with healthy input from your rav and spouse, not necessarily in that order).

    Why should anyone do what they “feel” they must? It shouldn’t be based on feelings. And why are you uncertain that a Rov’s input should come before one’s spouse’s desire? This is a halachic issue that a halachic personality should certainly take precedence.

    #1399683

    dancingmom
    Participant

    It’s interesting to note how many of my friends who are Baal teshuvas have told me that the concept of today’s wigs never made any sense to them. Why bother covering your own hair with someone else’s nice hair? This is modest?? It’s actually one of the first questions asked at many kiruv events.

    These friends of mine who were involved in the entertainment business before they became frum saw how wigs were used as a beautifying agent- a deception to make women appear glamorous and provocative to men- and actresses/singers/models don’t only wear long wigs, short wigs can be stunning too and sometimes more flattering on the women wearing them. Women know this very well, which is why they are so attached to their sheitels which transform them from plain Jane to Marylyn Monroe lookalike. Just put on a sheitel and the compliments pour in on how gorgeous and young you look. Modest indeed.

    Long, short – if the wig looks natural it’s provocative- it will provoke men by beautifying the woman wearing it. There’s no tichel or snood in the world that will have the same effect on men as a nice natural looking wig.

    Todays wigs are all natural looking! They all look like hair, beautiful hair, and anyone with open eyes and a truth seeking heart understands that hair is one of the most attractive features of a woman!
    That’s exactly why a married woman is supposed to be covering her hair in front of men. So they doesn’t notice how beautiful she is- her main beauty is supposed to be reserved for her husband only- at home.

    Every other area of modesty is safe to talk about it- but the wigs- forget it! When someone starts to point out the hypocrisy of most of the sheitels frum women and men start screaming in defense of the wigs. Clearly there’s something quite big about this topic- could it be that the sheitels today are a vehicle of the yetzer hora? Knowing how powerful the mitzvah of kisui rosh is, he’s blinded the frum population to the total sheker of these wigs. He’s even made it that natural looking wigs are the accepted social norm in frum society- with many husbands sporting beards, Peyos and tzitzus and wives with perfect shiny bouncy highlighted curls (of all lengths and colors) – quite a strange juxtaposition.

    (Interestingly the word sheitel and the word Satan have the same gematria….)

    #1399768

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It’s interesting to note how many of my friends who are Baal teshuvas have told me that the concept of today’s wigs never made any sense to them.

    That’s okay, they can be educated.

    (Interestingly the word sheitel and the word Satan have the same gematria….)

    Also the word “snood”.

    #1399779

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    How does the Mesorah change just because most people changed from following their Mesorah?

    Do you know what mesorah is? Do you know what boundaries are? Do you know what a breach is?

    #1399818

    Meno
    Participant

    (Interestingly the word sheitel and the word Satan have the same gematria….)

    Also the word “snood”.

    What’s the gematria of “toupee”?

    #1399830

    dancingmom
    Participant

    actually the words yetzer hora and sa’arah (hair) have the same gematria too

    #1399851

    Meno
    Participant

    actually the words yetzer hora and sa’arah (hair) have the same gematria too

    With gematrias like these, who needs halacha?

    #1399875

    GAON
    Participant

    A quick response to Joseph –

    “How does the Mesorah change just because most people changed from following their Mesorah?”

    Yes it does, read my earlier post explanation. The mesorah as per Rambam and SHu”A was that girls i.e. besulos covered their hair as well.
    “Dat Yehudit” as explained earlier, is all relatively-minhag-based. Modesty (not ervah Do’raisa) has always been based on what was relatively considered modest at the time n region.

    #1399892

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    If you go down the “gematria” route, you can probably prove that yosef=???? we could have an entire thread devoted to the numerology of what nouns and adjectives would work with the yud,…..etc.

    #1399951

    Joseph
    Participant

    Nu, based on your point, just as we changed Das Yehudis to a lower standard as currently practiced, if the rabbonim shlita convince the oilem to cover the hair of unmarried girls or for married women to only wear a tichel and not a sheitel, then that will become the new mandatory requirements for Klal Yisroel – just as it previously changed.

    #1399848

    dancingmom
    Participant

    And here’s the translation of part of a shiur Rav Ovadia Yosef gave about sheitels:

    Those ladies who wear wigs, they think it’s mutar. They say no one said it’s assur. But we do tell them it’s assur. That’s what the sages said. They made a cherem- the Vilna Goan, the Yaabetz, the Chasam Sofer, Maharatz Chajes and other Gedolim. They all said it’s assur. And they say, No, so how come this Rabbi is quiet about it? He sees his daughter going out like that and doesn’t say anything. Why doesn’t that Rabbi say anything? His wife wears one. They fool themselves. And because they fool themselves, their conscience doesn’t bother them. They do it lechatchila, they think it’s mutar. And if someone doesn’t do it, they actually make fun of them. If so, their sin is twice and three times as great.
    Where is the yirat shamayim? What about a person having to listen to the words of the sages that wrote this in their seforim? Am I just making it up? I brought this all down from the poskim. All of them. One after another, they all write that it’s assur. I didn’t just make it up- they all say it’s assur. Why should we transgress their word? For what? Just to look a little prettier? Is there any prettiness lacking in nice hats and fancy tichels? Silk, embroidered…? So what’s so hard- just wear one of those. It’s also better in terms of tzniut. This is the way of the Torah. A person must distance himself from pritzut. To make a gate around the Torah. Not that we should be looking at what looks like her hair. Why do they do this?
    There are even yeshiva bechorim- woe to them! They say right from the start – I only want her to wear a sheitel. They have eyes but cannot see! Their eyes have been shut so they cannot see! Poskim, they can’t see! Great Gedolim they don’t see! They learn Baba Kama, Baba Metzia, Baba Batra. And these things they don’t know- they don’t want to know! Even if you tell them they won’t believe you.

    #1400349

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes, we all know Chacham Ovadiah was against peah nochris. No chiddush here.

    #1400398

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    dancingmom- here’s the thing….Whether you are right or wrong, nobody will give you the time of day if you will write exceedingly long posts with soapbox screaming in people’s faces. Either change your approach, or give up the fight. Is your goal to scream a lot, or are you actually hoping to educate people?

    #1400399

    GAON
    Participant

    Dance,
    Two quick points for you to ask:
    “it is clear from their findings that the Shiltei Giborim was referring to the wearing of a wig in the חצר – the courtyard, where other men were usually not prevalent.”

    “Mahari Mintz Katzenelbogen who lived during the times of the Shiltei Giborim stated:
    “Our parents and grandparents in all the communities in Ashkenaz have stated their opinion that one should not wear on the head, even a nylon fabric whose weave resembles hair.”

    Explain – as per your above Peshat in the SH”G (that it’s only in the courtyard) – – what exactly is the opposition of the Be’er Sheva?
    I will quote the part of the oppositional words of the Be’er Sheva Ch 18:

    “ואפילו זכר לדבר ליכא להתיר לנשים נשואות לצאת בפאה נכרית מגולה בשוק או בחצר דבקעי ביה רבים כמו שעלה על דעת החכם הנזכר מפני שאפשר לפרש דמה ששנו היתר להתקשט ולצאת בפאה נכרית מיירי דוקא בחצר שאין הרבים בוקעין בו וא”כ בחנם טרח כל הטורח הזה החכם הנזכר דהא אפילו בשערות ראשה ממש מגולות מותר לה לילך בחצר שאין הרבים בוקעין בו ואינו אסור אפי’ משום דת יהודית דהיינו מנהג הצניעות שנהגו בנות ישראל
    “ואין להקשות היאך אפשר לפרש הא דתנן יוצאה אשה בכבול ובפאה נכרית בחצר דמיירי דוקא בחצר שאין הרבים בוקעין בו

    I.e. The very pshat that we are speaking about i.e. a “Courtyard” is exactly the pshat how the Be’er Shva is disputing the very Mishna the Sht”G based his psak on!
    Please relate to that “Talmid Chacham to look up the entire responsum of the Be’er Sheva, and you will see that pshat holds no ground.

    Also, the Rema in דרכי משה סי’ ש”ג is specifically talking about Reshus haRabim ans so is the Magen Avrohom and SM”A and PRM”G.

    b) You do realize that despite the argument of the above Be’er Sheva – The actual Halacha has been decided like the Sht”G? The very fact that this is the psak of the Rema–
    and others, מגן אברהם, לבוש, פרישה, אליה רבה, פמ”ג, “שו”ע הרב, מחצית השקל, ביאור הגר”א משנ”ב, כף החיים ..—
    — speaks volumes on its own! As these are the very Poskim that are the foundation of ALL halacha that we follow – and they were not concerned with issue of the Be’er Sheva.
    ! ומימיהם אנו שותים

    Obviously, they were discussing in terms of Halacha not minhag (see Pri Mgadim).
    Most of the later achronim you quote, all had the Minhag – at the time – to go covered, so of course there is an issue of Dat Yehadut involved, which is even according to the above Matirim an issue (see Magen Giborim CH 75).

    Hence, most quotations of “Issur” is not relevant once the accepted minhag (the reason is an issue on ts own – and does not matter) is that all Charedi women do go with Pe’eh nuchris. Whether the reason was Maris Ayin or minhag is automatically irrelevant once the facts have changed.

    #1400560

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gaon, are you referring to the Halacha for Ashkenazim or for Sephardim?

    #1400577

    dancingmom
    Participant

    The mitzvah of covering the hair is to detract attention from the married woman. Since hair in itself is provocative for men. As the תרומת הדשן says clearly, that a woman must cover her hair “משום פריצות דגברא – since hair is provocative for men. (עין בסימן י) .
    And that’s why majority of the poskim were against the wigs since what is the point of covering hair with more hair?
    You can continue posting all the sources for the pea nachris- no one could argue with the fact that todays wigs look nothing like the wigs from 400 years ago or even 30 years ago
    the have become a completely different item that defeat the very purpose of the mitzvah

    #1400636

    GAON
    Participant

    Dancing:
    You keep on quoting Rav Elyashiv with no sources, forbidding natural looking Pe’eh. There are other sources where he permitted. Please quote if anything is in writing.

    Joseph:

    I will again quote one of the most prestigious Sfardi Posek stating specifically, that even if the Pe’eh Nuchris is much prettier than hair is still in sync with the Rema:

    באשר לשאלתו בדין פאה נכרית לנשים נשואות, אם דינה כמו שיער ראשה שאסור לגלותה משום הרהור – דלפעמים היא יותר יפה משיער ראשה ומייפה אותה יותר – ואתי לידי הרהור, וכן משום מראית העין, דהרואה נדמה לו שהן שערותיה ממש… הנה זה לשון הדרכי משה… ומותר לאשה נשואה לגלות ה נכרית שלה, לא שנא אם היא עשויה משערותיה או משיער חברתה, דאין שיער באשה ערוה אלא דוקא שערותיה המדובקים בבשרה, אבל לא בתלושין העשויות לכסות שערותיה האחרות, אע”ג דעבדה לקישוט שתהא נראית בעלת שיער. ע”כ

    ונראה בטעם הדבר, דהוא משום דקים להו לרבנן, שאין יצה”ר שולט אלא בדבר הדבוק בגוף האשה עצמה, היינו הדבר הדבוק בגוף הערוה עצמה, דאין שליטה להיצה”ר אלא בדבר שיש לו נפש חיונית, לא בדבר שאין לו נפש חיונית, ולכן בנתלש מגוף האשה, דניטל ממנו נפש החיונית, הרי פקע ממנו אותה הערוה שהיתה עליו בזמן שהיה דבוק בגוף האשה, דהרי הוא כפגר מת שאין להיצה”ר שליטה בו, ולכן התירו להסתכל בו, דכיון שאין להיצה”ר שליטה בו, הרי לא יבוא לידי הרהור.

    – שו”ת “ישכיל עבדי” – חלק ז’, אה”ע סי’ ט”ז – הגאון רבי עובדיה הדאיה זצ”ל, ראש ישיבת המקובלים בית אל –

    Halacha is not determined by OUR feelings – its the other way around – Our feelings and Hashkafa should be driven by Halacha.

    #1400669

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gaon, you’re cherry-picking psaks you like and disregarding/dismissing all the others.

    #1400668

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Dancingmom, care to quote the rest of the תרומת הדשן?

    #1400672

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Joseph, how is that different than what you’re doing?

    He is at least highlighting the psakim which are widely accepted and followed…

    #1400676

    GAON
    Participant

    “Gaon, you’re cherry-picking psaks you like and disregarding/dismissing all the others.”

    Hmm since when is following the psak of:
    ——– מגן אברהם, לבוש, פרישה, אליה רבה, פמ”ג, “שו”ע הרב, מחצית השקל, ביאור הגר”א משנ”ב, כף החיים Rema..
    considered “picking”?!

    Care to say how exactly you follow ANY Halacha?

    #1400679

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DM
    “It’s interesting to note how many of my friends who are Baal teshuvas have told me that the concept of today’s wigs never made any sense to them. Why bother covering your own hair with someone else’s nice hair?”

    Im not sure why that it is interesting. You mentioned the same silly comment about professors. Nu so Baalei teshuva need to be taught about yidishkeit. Whats so interestign baout that.

    Halcha isnt determined by what baalei teshuva find interesting nor by what professors find confusing.

    “You can continue posting all the sources for the pea nachris- no one could argue with the fact that todays wigs look nothing like the wigs from 400 years ago or even 30 years ago”

    nobody is arguing with that fact. Just like nobody argues that today’s pens are different than yesterday’s quills. that doesn’t make them assur

    #1400976

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    When you wear a wool sweater, you are covering your skin with the hair of an animal. That’s even weirder.

    #1400988

    GAON
    Participant

    ubiquitin,
    “Halcha isnt determined by what baalei teshuva find interesting”

    Know why we find by Korban Pesach that you cannot have a ‘חבורה של כולה גרים’ ?

    #1400998

    GAON
    Participant

    Dancing,

    “Just two months ago Vogue magazine featured a famous actress on their cover proudly wearing a wig from a frum sheitel company- and this was a short wig. She definitely looked very modest with her natural wig on!”

    Interesting how two people can look at the same thing and come out with total opposite results:

    – Daas’ Torah of many Gedolim –
    Going back to Pre-war Europe most Frum/Charedi women did not cover their hair, including wives of Rabanim, Roshei Yeshivos, Pious g-d fearing men etc. it was accepted among most as the norm, as recorded by the Aruch Hashulchan and others.
    Baruch Hashem that there are all kind of Sheitelach available, that no woman, no matter her level in Yiddishkeit should have the need or any excuse to go uncovered! In the worst case scenario, even if she goes with an immodestly pritzus sheiltal — it won’t be an Ervah d’Oraisa!

    Yes, we do need chizuk in ALL aspects of Tznius as all Yiddshkeit related issues need Chizuk, and is no different than it has always been, relatively speaking!

    Or, you can go ahead and claim everything is Assur and end with the same results as pre-war Europe.

    #1401002

    dancingmom
    Participant

    As stated in The Unique Princess by Rabbi Yirmiyohu and Tehilla Abramov, “The halachic opinions that permit the wearing of wigs were talking about wigs that were short, unnatural looking, and “wiggy”. Such wigs were in use a century ago, explains Maran HaGaon Rav Yosef Sholom Elyashiv, shlita. They were short and stiff, and the hairs did not move from their place.” (page 103)
    Further on it says, “Rav Elyashiv also clearly stated that in his opinion it is preferable for a woman to cover her hair with a kerchief rather than a wig. He constantly expressed his concern about the use of wigs that are not modest- a practice which, he says, has made inroads even into the families of pious men and roshei Yeshivah. ” (page 105)

    This book has the approbation of many Gedolim including Rav Elyashiv, Rav Zilberstein, Rav Karp, Rav Scheinberg, Rav Ezriel Auerbach, Rav Ovadia Yosef, Rav Weinbach, Rav Zev Leff, Rav Asher Zelig Weiss etc…

    #1400990

    dancingmom
    Participant

    Rav Falk interestingly compares the wearing of a yarmulka made out of hair to the natural sheitels women are using today:
    “How would a woman feel if her son had a yarmulke made for himself that was like a miniature sheitel- gauze on the inside and short man- like hair covering it from on top? When he wears it, his head is of course covered. However, to anyone who sees him, he has nothing on his head!
    We can well imagine what his distraught mother would say to her son when trying to convince him that it is wrong of him to brush his religion under the carpet in such a manner. The answer he gives her, that when out on the street he is ashamed to show that he is a yid and therefore hides it, will of course meet with little sympathy from his mother. Yet, little does his mother realize that she is doing exactly the same as her perplexed son. She with many of her friends, are ashamed or hurt by the fact that yiddishkeit requires them to cover their hair and that they cannot look “as natural” as an unmarried girl. They therefore have a sheitel made which looks exactly as their own hair. With it, they successfully hide a major part of their yiddishkeit, much to the chagrin of all erlicher Yidden.” (Mitzvos Kisui Saaros, pages 14-15)

    #1400992

    dancingmom
    Participant

    Taken from the book, “Adorned with Dignity”
    There are many sources that state clearly that the women wore wigs in the Gemara’s times in order to beautify themselves for their husbands in their homes. In those times (before the warning the Zohar) woman wore their hair in the house. Those who had thin or white hair wore sheitels in order to look nicer for their husbands at home. When these women would go out in public, they completely covered the wig with a kerchief. (From here we see that the wig was worn as a substitute for hair, not as a substitute for a head covering.) רש”י ערכין ז, תוספות ריד והנמוקי יוסף בשבת סד, מהאגור בסימן תל”ו, דברי רבינו ירוחם והטוש”ע א”ח סימן שג’ סעיף יח’.

    The following is a proof that in the רשות הרבים the women who wore wigs completely covered them with a kerchief:
    There is a halacha that a woman may not wear a wig in the רשות הרבים (this is referring to the רשות הרבים in the Gemara’s times) for fear that she might take it off and show it off to her friends which would constitute carrying on Shabbos. If, as you said, that the women wore a wig in public as a head covering, it wouldn’t enter someone’s mind that a Torah observant woman would take off her wig in public and display her hair. From here it is clear that a woman would completely cover her wig with a kerchief and the Chachamim were afraid that she would take out her wig from under the kerchief and show it to her friends.
    It was so self-understood that a married woman would cover her hair in public, that even the secular women would cover their hair. See Rashi Sanhedrin 58:2 – שהיו רגילות את הנכריות שלא לצאת בראש פרוע – As is seen in history books.

    #1401013

    Mosh613
    Participant

    “Dancingmom” is bringing valid true proofs from Gedolim to the statements that were presented.  Why can’t we wake up to these true facts? If we start being lomdish and continue bringing proofs from the Gemara and other poskim to dispute the information we can go on and on and never finish.  
    HaGaon HaRav Elyashiv zt”l, HaGaon HaRav Smuel Halevi Wosner, HaGaon HaRav Shlome Zalman Auerbach, among other great gedolim all knew the psakim of the Shiltei Giborim and Ramah. They were much more knowledgeable in this topic than all of us put together; and yet they all stated that the sheitels of their times were not was the Shiltei Giborim and Ramah were referring to. (And we all know that since they stated their opinion, the sheitels have become more updated, attractive, and natural looking with all the new modernized features.)
    Let us take the blinds off our vision. Who are we trying to fool?
    Don’t we ourselves know what nisyonos the sheitels of today are causing?
    Every woman and man is responsible for himself and will have to give their own din v’chesbon.
     
    Let us remember that every man who allowed (or even encouraged ) his wife to wear a sheitel which caused sin will have to give his own din v’cheshbon.

    #1401014

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It was so self-understood that a married woman would cover her hair in public, that even the secular women would cover their hair. See Rashi Sanhedrin 58:2 – שהיו רגילות את הנכריות שלא לצאת בראש פרוע – As is seen in history books.

    You just unwittingly undermined a good deal of your argument.

    #1401020

    Mosh613
    Participant

    הרב שמואל הלוי וואזנער זצל: “אך ידוע לכתחילה אסור לצאת גם בפאה נכרית אם לא שיש עוד כסוי על ראשם עכ”פ…וכן שתהי’ עשויה שלא תראה ממש כהולכת בשערה, אלא ניכר שהיא גוף זר עלי’ה”(שבט הלוי סי’ ר”ז).

    #1401021

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gaon, just as you acknowledge that for a certain period in our history there were Chareidi married women who r”l went out without covering their hair and we B”H raised our level of observance to where such a thing is now very rare, so too many rabbonim today are striving to further raise our level of kedusha to the point where women wear a tichel instead of a sheitel.

    #1401031

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “HaGaon HaRav Elyashiv zt”l, HaGaon HaRav Smuel Halevi Wosner, HaGaon HaRav Shlome Zalman Auerbach, among other great gedolim all knew the psakim of the Shiltei Giborim and Ramah.”

    anyone who considers these gedolim their poskim, by all means should follow their rulings. asey licha Rav does not mean that every time a gadol in e’y or anywhere else issues a psak, it is binding on all klal yisroel. Many other poskim are familiar with these rulings , and nevertheless disagree. Most importantly for me, my Rav, is aware of these poskim, and rules differently (because that is the kabbalah he has from his Rav and so on).

    #1401034

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Vogue magazine and modest in the same sentence?

    #1401035

    GAON
    Participant

    To summarize all –
    There are basically two shitos and two issues:
    A – Halachak Talmudic – d’Oraisa based – Das Moshe:

    1) The שלטי הגיבורים, Rema, Magen Avrohom – that permit wearing Pe’ah Nuchris – even if its your OWN NATURAL hair and in Reshus haRabim.

    2) Be’er Sheva, Yavetz etc – that uphold ALL Sheitlach that resemble anything to hair are Assur in Reshus haRabim.
    (Note, there is no ‘inbetween’ halacha of “wiggy” looking coverings)

    B – Minhag of Das Yehudis –
    Relatively based – depends on the towns custom minhag, on what is defined as modest at the time.

    1) The Minhag in most cities and towns in Europe and many Mid-East countries – until 150 years ago (give or take) – women covered their hair with a Maftachos.

    2) The accepted minhag as of today – most Charedi women don a Pe’ah Nuchris.

    #1401041

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph
    “so too many rabbonim today are striving to further raise our level of kedusha to the point where women wear a tichel instead of a sheitel.”

    Exactly! IE not like DM is falsely saying. Most (not all) of the poskim cited who encourage Tichels today are not because they hold Sheitels are assur. Rather they want to ” raise our level of kedusha” when “raising LEvels of KEdusha” is conflated with mutar/assur you run the risk of losing everything.

    Mosih613
    “Every woman and man is responsible for himself ”
    so stop bothering us please.

    #1401043

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    After 100+ postings, no one has yet made a convincing case that a marrid frum woman should not wear a sheitel if that is the guidance she receives from her rav/posek. While thre are certainly many rabbonim an poskim who prefer a tichel, and they are entitled to respect, seeking to marginalize or denigrate those who chooe otherwise would likely result in alienation from yiddeshkeit rather than raising the madregah of observance. The “assur everything” crowd obviously will disagree but they seem at times to be clueless as to the real world and the effects of their words and actions on those who are struggling wih their hashkafah.

    #1401045

    GAON
    Participant

    “so too many rabbonim today are striving to further raise our level of kedusha to the point where women wear a tichel instead of a sheitel.”

    That is exactly the issue – extremism is taking over!

    Do I need to be frumer than the wives of the Chazon Ish and The BRISKER Rav?!

    It is definitively 100% kosher leHalacha – what are you comparing? why are you insisting?!
    Perhaps we should go back to the Rambam that Girls should cover their hair? Where does it end? Do we need to go like the cult of Lev Tahor…in Burkas?
    Yes – each woman who wants to enhance her Kedusha ON HER OWN by being Machmir, is more than welcome,. BUT this should not come by anyone insisting.

    #1401052

    GAON
    Participant

    “The following is a proof that in the רשות הרבים the women who wore wigs completely covered them with a kerchief:”

    You keep on going around in circles; this is taken out of the opposing shita i.e. the words of the Bee’r Sheva. The Magen Avroghom and all others saw his taynes and sided with the Rema and SH”G – Halacha has been decided – not like the Be’er Sheva – period!

    #1401033

    dancingmom
    Participant

    That is correct- bh many women today IN AMERICA are striving to elevate their level of kisui rosh by wearing tichels. Unfortunately they sometimes encounter resistance and prejudice from ignorant people within the frum community in response to wearing a tichel. it’s a terrible thing and so ironic that in a country where women of other religions proudly wear their cloth head coverings Jewish women have to face discrimination for wearing tichels in their own frum communities

    This is slowly changing but there’s still a long way to go

    #1401026

    dancingmom
    Participant

    Goan- you are completely underestimating frum women and still not getting my point.
    I’m not trying to debate if wigs are assur or mutar- I am pointing out how the shiltei Giborim’s teshuva can and was interpreted in different ways with MANY great poskim stating that wigs were not allowed outside. This is the basis of Rav Ovadia Yosef’s brilliant teshuva, how the shiltei Giborim never meant for wigs to be worn outside and Rov poskim (ashkenaz and sephard) did not allow the use of wigs – therefore it is forbidden. It aways amazes me how so many ignorant people will just dismiss the word of a halachic genius like Rav Ovadia Yosef who was able to be lenient in all areas- Yet he couldnt find a halachic heter for the wigs. He wasn’t looking to make it harder for women- he studied the topic very extensively and is way more knowedgeable than you or me. To dismiss his words as “only for Sephardim” is extremely disrespectful (my background is ashkenazic btw) I think posters here would benefit from learning his teshuva on the peah nachris for a deeper and clearer understanding of the topic.

    I know that there is a heter for wigs in the Ashkenazic world (and again that is and was a great debate) but the wigs than were VERY different from today. You cannot just state that based on their psak that because the wigs then were allowed, today all natural wigs are okay to wear- expecially as you are totally dismissing the words of current great Gedolei hador like Rav Elyashiv, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, Rav Wosner and many others who said otherwise. They made it very clear that most of todays wigs are not modest (which defeats the entire purpose of the mitzvah).

    Most frum women today would not stop covering their hair if they were told the wigs today are pritzus. They would make their wigs wiggier or try tichels. it is a disservice to the Klal, especially the women, that kisui rosh is not taught properly and many women do not understand why they are covering their hair and what is a proper and modest head covering. Frum women are intrinsically good- if they were taught this mitzvah properly the streets wouldn’t look the way they do now.

    #1401063

    Meno
    Participant

    I’m not trying to debate if wigs are assur or mutar

    Coulda fooled me

    #1401064

    GAON
    Participant

    Mosh,
    “If we start being lomdish and continue bringing proofs from the Gemara and other poskim to dispute the information we can go on and on and never finish. ”

    No one is being “lomdish” – you are paskening out of a book – NOT a responsum or anything in writing by these Gedolim mentioned.

    The words of the founding Poskim are for all to see – torah and psak is not defined by Kol Korah’s or by personal feelings or, by one or two Gedolim.
    B”H there are enough other Gedolim that most follow.

    #1401073

    Joseph
    Participant

    1) The Minhag in most cities and towns in Europe and many Mid-East countries – until 150 years ago (give or take) – women covered their hair with a Maftachos.

    2) The accepted minhag as of today – most Charedi women don a Pe’ah Nuchris.

    Care to explain, and understand, how and why MOST went from “1” (covered their hair with a Maftachos) to “2” (women don a Pe’ah Nuchris)?

    How/why/if that change was justified, unjustified or done due to a Shas Hadchak at the time of the change — that is no longer the case today.

    #1401075

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yes – each woman who wants to enhance her Kedusha ON HER OWN by being Machmir, is more than welcome,. BUT this should not come by anyone insisting.

    Raising the level of kedusha among Klal Yisroel is something rightfully encouraged for as many people as attainable by the Rabbonim shlita.

    Even by the Rabbonim “insisting”.

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