Natural-Hair Sheitels Are Assur

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  • #1405511
    dancingmom
    Participant

    From the sefer “Avodas Pnim” which Peninim tznius groups learn worldwide- read, reviewed and approved of by Rabbi Yaakov Ephraim Forchheimer (Posek of Lakewood, NJ), Rabbi Dovid Weinberger of Congregation Shaaray Tefila, Lawrence, NY and Rabbi Usher Eckstein

    On page 87 it says:
    “It is a Torah obligation for a married woman to cover her hair whenever she is in a public area or appears among a large number of people. Chazal have given the hair of the married woman the status of ervah. This means that the hair, as is the case of any other part of the female body that is labeled ervah, can cause a man who sees it to feel attracted to her.
    In the eyes of the halachah, a married woman is an eishes ish, which indicates a special and elevated status. When the Chasan places the ring on her finger under the chuppah, he says to her, “Harei at mekudeshes li- You are hereby designated to me.” The word “mekudeshes” means that she is now set aside for her husband. She has entered into an exclusive relationship with him alone and must be especially careful to avoid contact and socializing with any other man. Accordingly, part of her beauty should be withheld from the public eye. Certainly she should be dressed pleasantly and graciously at all times, but she should not display her full natural chein for everyone to see. This is accomplished by covering her hair, because the hair has particular feminine appeal.
    Interestingly, the Gemara tells us that Chava had to cover her hair only after the sin of eating from the eitz ha-daas. Had she not caused Adam to sin, the yetzer hora would have been far less intense, and this symbol would not have been necessary. One the yetzer hara was internalized, it became a far more potent force, and it became necessary to safeguard her from all forms of immorality. Covering her hair to conceal its natural beauty became an extra measure of tznius to fight the yetzer hara of immorality.”

    The wigs today are not concealing a womans beauty- there’s no argument there.
    I cant understand what the point is of arguing about the purpose of the mitzvah of kisui rosh- Jewish married women are covering their hair for tznius- period (why else would we be covering our hair??). Most of todays wigs are not tznius because they are causing women to look more attractive, not less attractive- CASE CLOSED.

    #1405570
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DM
    “CASE CLOSED.”

    Correct.
    Though your posts are lengthy and repetitive, allow me to highlight the key point,to avoid your rambling distractions :

    You say “Again- I know that there is a heter for a wig…”
    Correct. and as you say CASE CLOSED

    #1405769
    GAON
    Participant

    No one is debating whether there is an issue with modesty nowadays. However, the question is WHAT is rendered as modest and what not, and your assessment’s are totally incorrect.

    Attractive and beautifying is NOT what the issue is, as quoted by many above.
    The issue in concern are the wigs that attract attention either by length or other methods, not by the fact of it’s “natural look” … And as quoted by the above family members of Rav Elyashiv and Rav Shlomo Zalmen ZTL:

    וכמובן שהקפיד מאד מאד שתהיה פאה צנועה, וצנועה זה מה שמקובל שזה צנועה, מה שעל פי הרבנים נחשב צנועה.

    בכל תוקף הוא דיבר נגד זה, על הפאות הפרועות והמתולתלות והלא צנועות – הוא היה חריף מאד נגד זה, אך פאה בצורה אנושית ונורמאלית וצנועה כמו שמקובל על פי הרבנים – לא היתה לו שום בעיה, בזה הוא תמך.

    וכך אותו דבר גם אצל הרב אלישיב זכרונו לברכה, כמו שהסברתי מגיסתי ע”ה, ובתנאי שהיא פאה צנועה, וזה חמור מאד; ובפאה צנועה לא היתה לו שום בעיה לכתחילה.

    It’s worthy to note, that both Rav SZ and Rav Elyashiv were from the Yishuv haYashan Perushim of Yerushlayim where all women went covered as per minhag and tekanah. I am sure that was still the overall custom at the times they got married.

    In any case, the very fact that BOTH of their daughters and grandchildren indeed went/ go indicates more that anything elsewhere.

    ואין לומדים לא מתוך מעשה ולא מתוך הלכה אלא מתוך הלכה למעשה!

    Personally, I don’t pasken from ANY of these. It’s just to demonstrate how awkward it’s to rely on any of these Kol Korahs, letters, books, stories etc.

    However, what we can certainly believe is the following words of
    הגאון רבי יצחק ירוחם בורודיאנסקי שליט”א, משגיח בישיבת קול תורה,

    “למי שיש כבר דעה מוקדמת שאסור – קשה מאד לדבר עמו.”

    #1405783
    Joseph
    Participant

    “It’s worthy to note, that both Rav SZ and Rav Elyashiv were from the Yishuv haYashan Perushim of Yerushlayim where all women went covered as per minhag and tekanah. I am sure that was still the overall custom at the times they got married.”

    Why is that reason to write off and dismiss how RYSE and RSZA conducted themselves?

    #1405789
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why is that reason to write off and dismiss how RYSE and RSZA conducted themselves?

    How is he dismissing the way they conducted themselves?

    #1405806
    dancingmom
    Participant

    Harav Yosef Shalom Elyashivzt”l believed that it was more praiseworthy for a woman to cover her hair with a kerchief than with a wig. In his words, “Since the wearing of a wig is questionable according to halacha, it is definitely preferable to wear a kerchief since this is a matter of halacha.”

    And in a letter written by one of his top tamidim Rav Karp it says:
    “Many times, we heard from Rav Elyashiv zt”l, how pained he was by this great breach of tznius,
    and how much he encouraged Jewish women to go with a mitpachat, which he considered “Glatt” , because even the old wigs, were a matter of controversy among the poskim, and from then on to today, the Yetzer Hara has not rested to produce different styles of wigs, the common denominator of which is to stimulate the Yetzer Hara and cause the men of Israel to sin, and it is a double obligation for us to cast aside this pritzut, and for sure anyone who is a Ben Torah– Heaven forbid that he should be lenient in this matter–
    and let this be the first stringency that he takes upon himself, especially as (today’s wigs) can create a Michshol for the Rabbim (a pitfall for the masses). And “Ashrei” (fortunate/blessed) is one who separates
    himself and who REFUSES to allow today’s wigs into his home. And in this merit, he will merit children who are Talmidei Chachamim and Tzaddikim.

    (I have this all in hebrew but for some reason when I copy and paste the Hebrew it doesn’t post)

    It’s ALL about beautifying and making oneself attractive outside – that is the entire issue with most of todays sheitels. And natural looking wigs fall under that catagory too- they are beautifying just by the fact that they look like the woman’s hair! And hair is beautifying

    #1405799
    dancingmom
    Participant

    Amazing how dismissive we are of the Chofetz Chaim and other Poskim I mentioned – I think my points are very well sourced. The books that I studied have tremendous haskamos- from Rav Elyashiv himself and many other Gedolim. My Rebbetzin wrote her book under the guidance of Rav Elyashiv- he read the entire book as did his son in law Rav Zilberstein. This is first hand information.
    It says, “The halachic opinions that permit the wearing of wigs were talking about wigs that were short, unnatural looking, and “wiggy”. Such wigs were in use a century ago, explains Maran HaGaon Rav Yosef Sholom Elyashiv, shlita. They were short and stiff, and the hairs did not move from their place.” (The Unique Princess, page 103)

    Gaon said- “Attractive and beautifying is NOT what the issue is, as quoted by many above.
    The issue in concern are the wigs that attract attention either by length or other methods, not by the fact of it’s “natural look”

    Attractive and beautifying is exactly what the issue is about- do you realize that you’re totally contradicting yourself? The wigs that are long and have “other methods” are attracting and beautifying as are wigs with a “natural look”. They are one and the same. Wiggy looking wigs are only allowed precisely because they don’t beautify and attract.

    What their daughters and granddaughters wear on their heads is not relevant. Many Gedolims children don’t follow what their father and grandfather paskened (I’m not chas vashalom disparaging Rav Elyashivs children and grandchildren, I have no idea what they wear on their heads. I do know that his Rebbetzin only wore a tichel)

    You can hear Rav Elyashiv saying the following words- they were recorded for all to hear (I have the recording):
    These are the words of the Rav Shlita exactly as recorded in a shiur he gave in his bais midrash translated into English:

    Rav: Even though there’s a dispute among the Poskim whether it’s mutar or ossur to wear a sheitel, if they walk as if their hair is revealed, the way those that are not covering their hair walk, they are violating an issur gamur, it’s mamish, it’s emes like ervah.
    The issur is as follows-
    If they go with a sheitel like the times 100 years ago, then of course this is allowed, even a drop nicer. But, it should not be the way they go today. All those that go today, it looks like hair for sure and this is definitely assur, this nobody was mattir.
    …A woman with the wig of today the way she goes, it’s mamish ervah, it looks like hair, there is no difference, regarding this there is no heter, what they were mattir then was the peah nochris.
    the questioner: She is violating das yehudis, she should go out without a kesubah?
    Rav: yes!
    questioner: yes?
    Rav: the answer is, that the husband is acting the way he is supposed to. But if he is also like her…
    questioner: Does an ehrlich yid (a kosher Jew, a true Jew) must divorce his wife if she wears a sheitel like this?
    Rav: He doesn’t have to divorce her, he must tell her that it’s assur!

    Clearly Rav Elyashiv did not endorse natural looking wigs- please don’t misquote him
    Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (whom my Rebbetzin also knew personally) had the same views as Rav Elyashiv
    It says, “Maran Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt”l, expressed the same concern. As he once put it to Rav Dan Segal, shlita: “They cover their hair, and then make every effort to make it look uncovered. Therefore, in my opinion this is a loathsome thing. But who can we talk to?”

    #1405814
    Joseph
    Participant

    “How is he dismissing the way they conducted themselves?”

    My understanding of his comment (correct me if I’m mistaken) is that since Rav SZ and Rav Elyashiv were from the long ago Yishuv haYashan Perushim of Yerushlayim where all women went covered as per the no longer relevant minhag and tekanahs from those long ago times. And way back then that was still the overall custom that we have long since discarded.

    My objection is the assumption that the minhagim Yisroel from the Yishuv haYashan Perushim of Yerushlayim, who were not that long ago and whom everyone reading this lived in the times of people from the Yishuv (like Rav Elyashiv), are irrelevant and no longer binding practice on those from those communities and communities with similar minhagim.

    #1405859
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    (correct me if I’m mistaken)

    He is explaining why their wives wore tichels, but their daughters, with their blessings, wore shaitels.

    #1405899
    Joseph
    Participant

    He is explaining why their wives wore tichels, but their daughters, with their blessings, wore shaitels.

    Neither the quote I cited nor other parts of his comment(s) seem to demonstrate that such blessings were given. They seem to assume that such blessings were given merely based on the claim (even if we assume accurately) that the daughters wore wigs-only.

    Their daughter-in-laws would be a better example than their daughters, since the daughters likely would’ve switched to their new husband’s minhag. (Even regarding DILs, we should really see something more than an assumption it was done with the father’s blessing.)

    #1405906
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Three hundred plus postings and a gazillion words later, no one has yet provided a convincing argument as to why a woman shouldn’t follow the guidance of her Rav or posek as to whether a real haired sheitel, a faux hair sheitel, a tichel, a snood, or a paper bag with holes cut out provides the appropriate hair covering for a bas yisroel. While yiddeshkeit provides considerable opportunity for individual hashkafah, apparently those in CR are of the belief that women must adhere to whatever chumrah/kulah they hold by and failure to do is is apikorsus and leads to all sorts of pritzus.

    #1405952
    GAON
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Do you read Hebrew?

    , משגיח בישיבת קול תורה, ראש כולל “ישיבת הר”ן” בירושלים וחתן הגרש”ז אויערבאך זצ”ל, בשיחה מוקלטת, סתר לגמרי את דברי ר’ שמואל אויערבאך ואמר שהם גוזמא בעלמא.

    ואלה דבריו:

    “למי שיש כבר דעה מוקדמת שאסור – קשה מאד לדבר עמו.

    למעשה, אספר לכם סיפור שפעם אשתי שתהיה בריאה, עם הרבנית לאה ע”ה אויערבך שהיא בת של הרב אלישיב, עמדו ודברו ביניהן ואמרו – ‘מה עושים מאתנו – מורדות בהורים שלנו’?

    הדבר הכי גדול זה שרואים על הבנות של הרבנים איך הן מתנהגות, רק שלפעמים בנות הולכות בכיוון הלא נכון – אז אנו יודעים, אבל אצל שני הגדולים האלו – הכיבוד אב היה חזק מאד, אז בעצם המעשים יותר גדולים מדיבורים.

    מה שאני שמעתי בעצמי מחמי, ואני אסביר את המקום לטעות .… אשתי אומרת שהוא נתן לה את הכסף לקנות פאה, ולפני החופה הוא שם את שתי ידיו על הפאה שלה ובירך אותה, וממילא ברור שזה היה בלב שלם.

    Regardless, It is either the minhag of RZA or the minhag of R Elyashiv ZTL, as Rav SZ son married Rav Elyashiv’s daughter

    #1405965
    GAON
    Participant

    Joseph,
    Let’s keep it simple, there are two issues here.

    A) Why did Rav Elyashivs rabunis wear a tichel?
    Answer: that was the overall minhag then in Jerusalem at the time

    B) why the change of their children ?
    I will let YOU do the answering.

    Hint, read well the comment and quote of the Magen Giborim

    #1405981
    GAON
    Participant

    Joseph,

    If that is not clear enough, here.

    בנו, הרב יהושע בורודיאנסקי שליט”א, נכד הגרש”ז, כתב במכתב:

    “אימי מורתי תליט”א חובשת פאה עד היום הזה. כשדברתי פעמים רבות עם אימי שתחי’, אמרה לי בכאב על הפרסומים כאילו היה אביה זצ”ל מתנגד לפאות:

    ‘הרי הוא רכש מכספו, ללא אומר ודברים, שתי פאות עבורי לנישואי, וכן לנישואי אחיותיי שתחי’, ואת שתי ידיו הקדושות הניח בברכה על ראשי העטור בפאה ערב כלולותי! וכי היה עולה על דעתינו לעשות ולסטות כלשהוא מדעת אבינו רוענו, שכל פניה ופניה שעשינו היה על פיו?’

    P.s. ask your rebbitzin to please translate it for you.

    #1405988
    GAON
    Participant

    “Amazing how dismissive we are of the Chofetz Chaim and other Poskim I mentioned ”

    Dancing/ Miri,

    FYI,

    The dismissiveness is rather how you (or more accurate) qnd your books interpret their words. The Chafetz Chaim is speaking about your OWN natural hair when INTACT. Please do not put any words….

    This is my very issue with these books, they are
    !מגלה פנים בתורה שלא כהלכה

    I have no issue with you or anyone saying we should be מהודר and מחמיר and kol hakovod to you! I admire you and respect you tremendously – you are following your rebbitzen and the books you read, despite the hardships, and hashem should bless you with all the best of nachas and all. BUT…..

    #1406078
    dancingmom
    Participant

    Rav Elyashiv actually held that a wig cannot be longer than the highest vertebra on the back. And he held that the tichel is the ideal head covering.
    On page 133 of the Unique Princess:

    The Laws of Modesty
    A woman’s Behavior in the Presence of men
    Written by HaGaon HaRav Yitzchak Zilberstein shlita and approved by Maran HaGaon Rabbi Yosef Sholom Elyashiv, shlita
    – If she wears a sheitel, wig- the sheitel must look like a wig. It must be styled modestly and must not be longer than the highest vertebra on the back

    – IN THE VIEW OF MARAN HAGAON RABBI YOSEF SHOLOM ELYASHIV, SHLITA, IT IS PREFERABLE TO COVER ONE’S HAIR WITH A KERCHIEF RATHER THAN A WIG

    That’s why his Rebbetzin wore a tichel – because Rav Elyashiv held that this is the best way to cover the hair

    #1406063
    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    I’m a bit late, but here’s what I can say.

    I think we all can agree that wigs that are 15 inches past the shoulders and look very natural are not tzniyus. If you can’t say that, I’m not sure what part of Orthodoxy you claim to be a part of but I don’t think it’s mine.

    That said, of course it’s more mehudar to cover your hair with other means (as long as those aren’t more eyecatching than your sheitel). Follow your Rav about what is the bouderies between a tzniyus sheitel and not tzniyus one. I live in Israel, and most frum people here were sheitels that reach their shoulders or are an inch or two below it. Those are just fine.

    #1406072
    dancingmom
    Participant

    Gaon-how nice and tidy (and extremely condescending) it is for you (and everyone else) to write off what I am saying as “interpretations of these books” etc..- a very convenient way to ignore the valid and sourced info I’m posting.

    These “interpretations” are not my own nor are they just opinions of people who lack the knowledge and stature to say this info.
    Obviously the Chofetz Chaim was referring to uncovered hair but his words made it clear that the mitzvah of kisui rosh is all about modesty- as do many other sefarim on this topic. Many Gedolim have made this clear too.
    Rav Elyashiv and Rav Auerbach wrote letters blessing those women who wore tichels (I posted a few of them already) and they CLEARLY stated that one is not allowed to wear a natural looking wig (you could hear Rav Elyashiv saying that it is assur in a shiur he gave! What other proof do you need??).
    I never wrote that they said a wig is assur, I wrote how they did not hold that the natural looking wigs were allowed (again, it doesn’t matter what their children and grandchildren wear, that is a very weak way to prove anything, we never look at a Gadols children to determine where he held)
    I will post the words of mishmar Hatorah in a few minutes… (there’s no arguing with that)

    #1406074
    dancingmom
    Participant

    I wish I knew how to insert a photo of the Krias Kodesh from the Gedolei Hador about the wigs but I can’t seem to figure out how to do it- I’ll type it up directly word for word (you can read it on page 137 in the Unique Princess) It’s very official- signed and sealed by the Gedolim

    Summary of the Laws of Modesty
    Written by Beth Din Tzedek “Mishmar HaTorah,”
    Under the leadership of Maranan Verabanim, the Gedolei Hador shlita,
    Maran Hagaon Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv shlita and Maran Hagaon Rabbi Shemuel Halevi Wosner shlita
    (this Krias Kodesh is also signed by Rav Aaron Steinman, Rav Ya’akov Aryeh Alter, Rav Michal Yehudah Lefkowitz, Rav Nissim Karelitz, Rav Chayim Kanievsky among others)
    Head Coverings
    Those who wear a sheitel (wig) must be particular that:
    1) They do not appear to be unmarried. It should be clearly recognizable to all that she is a married woman. One must therefore avoid any feature whose purpose is to give the sheitel a natural look.
    e.g.:
    – a white parting or “skin top”- scalp-colored net
    – a girlish style
    2) the sheitel should not have a wild look or be long. (The Gedolei Hador have described this as pritzus). The maximum permitted length is:
    – At the back- no longer than just covering the neck; and under no circumstances should it pass the
    shoulder line;
    – At the front – the hair should not cover the cheeks

    In a letter from Rav Elyashiv signed by Rav Elyashiv, Rav Shteinman and Rav Wosner in Tishrei 5771 it states:
    “… And I have already publically stated my opinion that the laws of modesty formulated by the Beis Din “Mishmar HaTorah,” which was established by me, are neither fences nor stringencies, but rather they are part of the body of Torah law, and that anyone who detracts from them is transgressing Das Yehudis.
    The obligation to observe and keep these laws is not incumbent only on the women. Rather, the head of every house in his home must make sure to stregthen the members of his household and his offspring.”

    Hmmm, so I don’t think stating that Rav Elyashiv supported natural looking wigs is at all accurate (neither does Rav Shteinman, Rav Chaim Kanievsky and many other Gedolim)- regardless of what his children and grandchildren wear

    #1406095
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    again, it doesn’t matter what their children and grandchildren wear, that is a very weak way to prove anything

    So you’re calling their daughters rebellious?

    there’s no arguing with that

    Um, yes their is.

    IN THE VIEW OF MARAN HAGAON RABBI YOSEF SHOLOM ELYASHIV, SHLITA, IT IS PREFERABLE TO COVER ONE’S HAIR WITH A KERCHIEF RATHER THAN A WIG

    IN THE VIEW OF MARAN HAGAON RABBI MOSHE FEINSTEIN, ZATZAL, IT IS PREFERABLE TO COVER ONE’S HAIR WITH A WIG RATHER THAN A KERCHIEF.

    #1406109
    slominer
    Participant

    Reb Moshe also held that a tefach of her real hair showing in public was not assur. I don’t think (or hope) women are purposefully displaying a tefach of their real hair in public based on that.

    #1406108
    slominer
    Participant

    Based on the earlier discussion of Reb Moshe, it appears he only favored wigs over tichels by people who are at risk of not wearing the tichel correctly/fully, as I understand. He doesn’t appear to favor communities that wear tichels b’davka, and correctly, to change away from tichels.

    #1406164
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Reb Moshe also held that a tefach of her real hair showing in public was not assur. I don’t think (or hope) women are purposefully displaying a tefach of their real hair in public based on that.

    He also acknowledged that he was arguing with the Chasam Sofer, and, based on how R’ Abadi quoted him, it seems he didn’t hold that any hair showing was l’chatchilah.

    Unfortunately, many people do intentionally expose a tefach (being makpid on the Chazon Ish shiur, of course), and misapply the heter, which Rav Moshe explicitly says does not allow the tichel to be a tefach from the hairline, since the forehead is already two tefachim wide.

    Based on the earlier discussion of Reb Moshe, it appears he only favored wigs over tichels by people who are at risk of not wearing the tichel correctly/fully, as I understand.

    Which is most people who wear tichels.

    I don’t think most women today are at risk for completely removing their tichels (which is why the Lubavicher Rebbe insisted on shaitels only), but some hair almost always shows.

    #1406181
    slominer
    Participant

    The women in Bnei Brak and Williamsburg wearing tichels seem to completely cover their hair as much as any sheitel does.

    Is R’ Abadi referring to the hechsher/mashgiach in Lakewood? I might have missed a reference to him earlier in the thread, but he wrote a sefer on Reb Moshe’s teshuvos?

    #1406186
    GAON
    Participant

    “Obviously the Chofetz Chaim was referring to uncovered hair but his words made it clear that the mitzvah of kisui rosh is all about modesty”

    Agreed – and “modesty” is determined by Halacha – NOT by ones personal emotions, assumptions, etc.
    And Halacha is determined by the words of our founding Poskim – not by Books, stories, Kol Korahs.

    “(again, it doesn’t matter what their children and grandchildren wear, that is a very weak way to prove anything, we never look at a Gadols children to determine where he held)”

    That is precisely the very point of the family coming out with a statement.
    Note, these members have their own Chashuva status as well.
    הגאון רבי יצחק ירוחם בורודיאנסקי שליט”א, משגיח בישיבת קול תורה – “והליכות יצחק” על מסכתות הש”ס

    בנו, הרב יהושע בורודיאנסקי שליט”א, נכד הגרש”ז, כתב במכתב:

    “אימי מורתי תליט”א חובשת פאה עד היום הזה. כשדברתי פעמים רבות עם אימי שתחי’, אמרה לי בכאב על הפרסומים כאילו היה אביה זצ”ל מתנגד לפאות:

    ‘הרי הוא רכש מכספו, ללא אומר ודברים, שתי פאות עבורי לנישואי, וכן לנישואי אחיותיי שתחי’, ואת שתי ידיו הקדושות הניח בברכה על ראשי העטור בפאה ערב כלולותי! וכי היה עולה על דעתינו לעשות ולסטות כלשהוא מדעת אבינו רוענו – שכל פניה ופניה שעשינו היה על פיו?’

    #1406187
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1406195
    GAON
    Participant

    “ןt seems he didn’t hold that any hair showing was l’chatchilah.

    If I recall, many hold the heter of the above Mahram Alshakar only pertains to the side not the head itself i.e. in front.

    Here is part of a lengthy Teshuva written by haRav Moshe Sternbuch of the Bedatz Eda Hachredis regarding the above:

    – נכתב בשנת תש”ל –
    . הנה לפני כמה חדשים פורסם מהגאון רבי עובדיה יוסף שליט”א, מחבר
    ספר “יביע אומר”, בקונטרס מיוחד ובעיתונים וכן בספרו, שפאה נכרית אסור מדינא, וכמעט כל בית
    ישראל עוברים ח”ו באיסור, ועיתונים שמפרסמים על זה מודעות מכשילין את הרבים. ובמחילת
    כבודו, מטיל בכך מום בקדשים על רובא דרובא של בית ישראל.
    אמנם אם אין בדבריו אלא חומרא תבוא עליו הברכה, אבל בעוונותינו הרבים אלו הצעירות
    שמסירות הפאה נכרית לובשות מטפחת שאינה מכסה כל שערות הראש ממש, והבאנו שבזה האיסור
    לכ”ע חמור טפי אלף פעמים מאיסור פאה נכרית,

    וכן בלאו הכי לרוב הפוסקים שצריך מטפחת
    דוקא, כוונתם שצריך שני כיסויים מטפחת עם רדיד, שלא יתראה כלל משערות ראשן וכמבואר
    ברמב”ם ושו”ע, וזהו המנהג העתיק גם אצל הספרדים, וא”כ מצינו שבמטפחת לבד אין כאן תיקון
    רק פירצה ח”ו,

    והעיקר ביארנו שאין לחלק בענין זה בין אשכנזים לספרדים, שכולן נהגו פעם בלי
    פאה נכרית, והיום אשה מאלו או מאלו שנוהגות בפאה נכרית הבאנו היסוד לכך בהלכה וממה שיש
    להיזהר

    #1406253
    slominer
    Participant

    Is R’ Abadi generally widely accepted? I remember hearing that some feel he’s controversial in some of his positions or interpretations. Googling a little bit seems to indicate he approves of using Hebrew National (for people who eat non-glatt). I think kashrus is one of his focuses.

    #1406275
    slominer
    Participant

    Apologies if I missed it, did anyone answer whether among Sephardic Chareidim they generally follow Rav Ovadia Yosef that sheitels are assur?

    #1406312
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Ive been reading a lot of the back and forth and all seem to agree to some degree or another, that a wig (synthetic or natural hair) that is eye catching above a certain point (perhaps there is disagreement what or where that point is) is forbidden. So, it behooves everyone to seek rabbinic guidance from their family Rav where that point is.

    #1406394
    GAON
    Participant

    Slominer,

    To answer your question, read the next few posts.
    I did some research and happen to have come across the Teshuvot of Hagaon Chacham Harav Shalom Messas ZTL Chief Rabbi of Morocco and Jerusalem. (who was greatly admired by his colleague Chacham harav Ovadia ZTL , despite some differences in Halacha including the above.)

    #1406402
    GAON
    Participant

    Here is a quote of
    הגאון הרב שלום משאש אב בית דין והרב הראשי למרוקו, ורבה של ירושלים
    שמש ומגן – חלק ב

    Regarding Matpachat vs Wigs:

    ולפקוצ״ד אני רואה במנהג זה דבר חשוב ביותר. ומעלה גדולה נמצאת בו, לפי מ״ש הפוס׳ החולקים על מהר״ם אלשקאר על מה שהתיר גילוי שערות חוץ לצמתן. כמ״ש הצ״ץ הנ״ל שצעק הרבה על זה בחאה״ע סי׳ ק ל״ט ובחידושיו לברכות פ״ג. והאריך לסתור דברי מהר״ם אלשקאר, גם מהר״ץ חיות סי׳ כ״ג כתב שמהר״ם אלשקאר הפריז על המדה, ע״ש. וכן בס׳ וישב יוסף סי׳ א׳ החמיר בזה, והנה באלו הנשים שלובשות מטפחת א״א לומר ‘ונקה’ – שהמטפחת בורחת מן הראש, וגם מי שלובשות כובע נשאר הרבה שער חוץ לצמתן ועיני ראו נשי הרבנים קרוב לשליש ראשן מגולה, וכסהו והתגלה.

    ואף שיש פוס׳ שהתירו וסמכו על מהר״ם אלשקאר, מ״מ הלא ההיתר שלו ג״כ מטעם מנהג שנחחדש וכמ״ש הראש״ל שליט״א. ולדעת האוסרים יש מהם שאומרים שזה בכלל פריעת ראש ממש ויש בזה איסורא דאורייתא. ועי׳ בס׳ דת והלכה דף י״ח והנמשך שהאריך בזה משם הפוס׳ להחמיר ובכללם החזו״א זצ״ל ע״ש.

    ולפי״ז כיון שגם לאלו צריך להתיר מטעם מנהג חדש שנהגו להקל וכמ״ש הראש״ל שליט״א. א״כ טוב שניקח מנהג זה שיש בו כיסוי ראש לגמרי בלי להניח שום שערה יוצאת חוץ וכו׳ משתלבש מטפחת או כובע ותלך אחר מנהג שיש בו מחלוקת.
    ולדעת צד א׳ יש בו משום ‘פריעת ראש דאורייתא’ שנגלה שערה מגופה ממש

    ולכן הדבר פשוט מכל מה שכתבנו, שאין בזה משום דת יהודית כלל, מידי דהוי ארדיד, ואגילוי שער חוץ לצמתן, שיש לזה יסד ובסיס מגאוני עולם הפוס׳ המפורסמים שאנו סומכים עליהם בכל הדינים. וגם מדברי הפוס׳ המחמירין עצמם וכמו שהוכחתי.

    Regarding Minhag Yerushalayim and in general, the Minhag of Matpachat:

    וא״כ ה״ה לנד״ד, דעם הזמן נשתנה המנהג, ובמקום המטפחת והכובע חזרו ללבוש פאה נכרית, וכיון שדת יהודית הוא מנהג צניעות שנהנו בנות ישראל וכמ״ש מר״ן סי׳ קט״ו. וא״כ תינח בזמן שמנהג צניעות זה קיים ניחא אבל כיון שנתבטל המנהג, יהיה מטעם שיהיה ולא נשאר לו זכר כלל, ודאי פשוט וברור דלא נשאר ע״ז שם דת יהודית כלל.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=21253&st=&pgnum=269

    #1406409
    GAON
    Participant

    He continues:

    Regarding the Minhag and the very above claim that it is after all “provocative” and defeats the purpose of covering ones hair etc:

    ובסי’ יז שם המשיך וכתב:
    וכבר אמרתי ותמהתי על מה שאומרים הרבה פעמים שמנהג ירושלים שלא ללבוש פאה נכרית, ומביאים ראיה מרבנים קדמונים של ק׳ שנה ויותר שהיה כן, ואיזה ראיה מזה למה שפשט המנהג היום , ופוק חזי מאי עמא דבר וכמש״ל. ומנהג מבטל מנהג וכמש״ל בארוכה.

    ואם באנו לשפוט לפי ההגיון והסברא, כבר כתבתי בספרי תבואות שמ׳׳ש חאה״ע סי׳ קל״ח, שאין שום הרהור כלל בגילוי הראש בזמנינו זה גם כנשואות, דאיזה שכל והגיון יאמר דשעה אחת או רגע א׳ קודם שתקבל טבעת של קדושין לא היה בה הרהור, ותיכף שקיבלה הטבעת ועדיין גלויה לפנינו יחזור להיות בה הרהור, ואיזה שינוי נעשה בגופה שיביא לידי הרהור חדש, וקרוב הדבר להיות הדבר בהיפך, שקודם נישואין יש מקום להרהור כיון שהיא מותרת וחזיא לנישואין לכל גבר. לא כן אחר הנישואין דלא חזיא והיא מיוחדת לבעלה. ההרהור פחות הרבה כיון שיודע שא״א להשיגה וכמ״ש ה ראב״ע גבי לא תחמוד, וזה היה בימי קדם שהנשואות היו מכסות ראשן. אם תראה אותה אח״כ מגולה, יש שינוי בגוף וראיה חדשה ויש בזה הרהור, אבל בזמן שלא נשתנה בה שו״ד, גם שיהיה באיסור

    אמנם לגבי הרהור לא נתחדש שו״ד, והאיסור שלה לא מפני הרואים, אלא מפני החציפות שעושה בגילוי ראש שדרך הנשים ל כסות במטפחת או בפאה נכרית והיא נשארה מגולה, ועוברת על דת משה, ולכן די לנו לקבל מה שאסרה תורה בפירוש בגילוי שערה ממש, אף שהיום פג גם הטעם דחציפות כיון שהכל עושין כך, עכ״ז גזירה דאורייתא לקבל. אבל אין לנו להוסיף עליה שו״ד קטן או גדול, כיון דבעיקרא דמילתא אין כאן חציפות ולא הרהור.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=21253&st=&pgnum=276

    #1406496
    GAON
    Participant

    Here is the above mentioned response to Chacham haRav Ovadia ZTL:

    Regarding natural looking wigs that can not be noticed as a פאה נכרית and beautifies etc….
    He writes the following:

    תבואות שמ”ש – אבן העזר 138

    עוד כתב הגאון לאסור משום שנעשית במומחיות רבה עד שלא ניכר כלל אם היא פאה נכרית, ויש בזה פריצות, וגם גורמת להרהורי עבירה הקשים מעבירה, ששער באשה ערוה, עש״ב וברוחב.

    והנה אמת נכון הדבר, אבל הלא עכ״פ לא אסרו לאשהה שתתיפה כל מה שתוכל, רק שיהיה בהיתר, ועל האנשים לשמור עצמם שלא יביטו בהם–
    ואם באנו לזה, הרי יש כמה נשים יפפיות שאפי׳ יכסו ראשן במטפחת ובצעיף, הלא רק מהמת רוב יופים יש גירוי יצה״ר, האם נאסור עליהם לצאת לשוק או לכסות פניהם כגוים כדי שלא יביטו בהם אנשים, גם ישנם היום הלובשים איזה כובעים או מטפחות על ראשם יוצאים מן הכלל ובוחרין בזה יותר משערותיהן ויש בזה גירוי יותר מהשער, האם נאסור להם, גם צורת המלבושים של היום נשתנו, ואע״פ שמותרים עפה״ד, ישב תם גירוי יצר שמייפין האשה מאד, האם נאסור להם,

    אלא ודאי כל מה שהוא מותר ע״פ הדין, בין אם תכסה בבגד, או בשער, העיקר הוא שלא יהיה מגופה, הו״ל מלבוש על ראשה, ואין לנו ליכנס אם הוא מיפה אותה או לא ,

    דזהו ענין הגברים שחובתם שלא להביט, ואפי׳ תהיה מכוסה בכובע אין ראוי להביט

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=26912&st=&pgnum=293

    #1406725
    apushatayid
    Participant

    I’m curious. If sheitels are forbidden to be worn, why the big brouhaha to determine if indian sourced hair is an issue of avoda zara, even if it isnt, it is still a sheitel, a human hair one no less.

    #1406812
    slominer
    Participant

    Gaon – Sorry if I wasn’t clear. I wasn’t asking now for a summary of the various opinions regarding the permissibility of sheitels among Sefardic poskim. I am simply asking whether as a practical matter today Sefardic Chareidim follow Rav Ovadia Yosef on the issue of sheitels, and accept his Psak against them.

    Thanks

    #1407625
    YemJ
    Participant

    The original post on this thread was about Indian Temple Hair and Avoda Zara. As an industry insider I can tell you that Indian hair has flooded the market and it everywhere….. especially the naturally dark colors. South American, Mongolian, Uzbek, and Chinese are all labels you’ll find in the market, but it’s usually processed Indian hair even if the supplier swears otherwise. Once the Hair has been silicone coated, acid washed, colored, permed, Etc it’s impossible to know where the hair originated.
    Whether you think/ believe/hold it’s AZ or not, it’s important to know that this industry is corrupt, and a wig is generally not what it is labeled.

    #1407655
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Then you should buy from Venezuelan ponytail robbers.

    #1408073
    GAON
    Participant

    “Whether you think/ believe/hold it’s AZ or not”

    Isn’t that the prime reason why one would need to know where exactly its from?

    #1408068
    GAON
    Participant

    “I’m curious. If sheitels are forbidden to be worn, why the big brouhaha to determine if indian sourced hair is an issue of avoda zara, even if it isnt, it is still a sheitel, a human hair one no less.”

    APY,

    According to many, the very same Anti-Peah Nuchris camp are the ones pushing for the A”Z ….so yes, its another way of calling out all Sheitlach as assur.

    No need to go further then here…

    #1408069
    GAON
    Participant

    Slominer,

    While i’m not a pollster, from what I understand, many Sefardim (especially Moroccan’s) relied/rely on the above Chacham Harav Messas ZTL., and based upon his responsum most do go with a Pe’ah Nuchris.

    There are definitely many who strictly follow Chacham haRav Ovadia ZTL ruling as well.

    #1409863
    slominer
    Participant

    Gaon – What about Chareidim who are SYs, Iraqi, Persians or Egyptians? Rav Ovadia Yosef was born in Iraq and served as Rov in Egypt and Eretz Yisroel, so presumably they are more likely to follow his Psak on this.

    #1472683
    GAON
    Participant

    As I have commented earlier, extremism is taking over and all who are campaigning against Sheitlach as being “Avoda Zara” are really against Sheitlach in the first place. (hint: read the above’s comments there)

    WATCH: Charedi Extremists Burn Wigs in ‘Religious’ Ceremony Symbolizing Purim

    #1472696
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Hair is not asur because of ervah but hirhur otherwise we could not look away or close eyes by davening. See the argument between the Beer Sheva 17 or 19 and the Shiltei Hagiborim in Shabbos on the mishneh במה אשה יוצא

    #1472702
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The argument about פאה נכרית is in Beer Sheva 19 and the Shiltei Hagiborim above going out to the street.

    #1472704
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is a sefer written on this topic entitled הכתר הכבוד לחי עולמים is it a collection of all sages views written by the talmidim showing their pictures.

    #1472741
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Chofetz Chaim has a parable on this. A prince entrusted a man to adorn his crown for coronation with precious stones. The man being busy with another errand delegated the job of getting the jewels to his wife. She thinking, what is the difference no one will know, decided to get fake stones. When the prince wore his crown, they examined his crown and discovered the fake jewelry. He became angry at the man saying, how can you do this to me? He excused himself that his wife did this. The man was held responsible for delegating the task. Says the Chofetz Chaim that when we davin in front of a woman’s uncovered hair, we are adorning Hashem’s crown with fake jewelry.

    #1472843
    TheWizard
    Participant

    It’s a machlokes haposkim whether sheitels are okay or not. Let’s all leave it at that and not stick our noses between the giants. Everyone should follow their own posek,

    #1472869
    GAON
    Participant

    Laskern,

    See the argument between the Beer Sheva 17 or 19 and the Shiltei Hagiborim in Shabbos on the mishneh במה אשה יוצא”

    All that has been extensively covered in previously posts I quoted many different poskim regarding the above. The main topic in concern was: a) whether the Heter included natural looking Pe’eh Nuchris that looks like ones own hair. b) The ones that prohibited PN as Maris Ayin if it is still relevant nowadays.

    #1472890
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Natura hair wigs are worse if they look like uncovered hair which can bring to hirhur. The isur of uncovered hair is not erva but hirur since you can look away or close your eyes by davening, this does not apply to erva, which is any uncovered body part that normally is covered except hair.

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