November 10, 2017 1:30 pm at 1:30 pm #1401111
GAON: You keep on going around in circles
Sure, after all, she is dancingmom….November 10, 2017 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #1401113
Even by the Rabbonim “insisting”.
Most, including the ones you hold of, aren’t insisting, or even suggesting.November 10, 2017 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #1401112
“That is exactly the issue – extremism is taking over!
Do I need to be frumer than the wives of the Chazon Ish and The BRISKER Rav?!
It is definitively 100% kosher leHalacha – what are you comparing? why are you insisting?!
Perhaps we should go back to the Rambam that Girls should cover their hair? Where does it end? Do we need to go like the cult of Lev Tahor…in Burkas?”
Thank you Gaon for proving my point.
Anyone who calls a tichel extreme is showing complete ignorance about the mitzvah of kisui rosh and is going against the words of Rav Elyashiv, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and many more Gedolim ( who encouraged tichels and whose wives happened to wear tichels, you have selective postings) and insulting women who are trying to grow in tznius.
It’s unbelievable that people could put the word tichel in the same sentence as burka.
Does your wife wear a wig like the Chazon Ish’s wife or the Brisker Rav’s wife? If so, kol hakavod to her.
But the reality is that most women arent wearing wigs like that today.
No one is insisting that women wear tichels- but it should be respected and accepted as the ideal head covering- both halachically and hashkafically- and a viable option for frum women in frum circlesNovember 10, 2017 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #1401115
Words by Rabbi Epraim Wachsman from an asifa held in both Brooklyn and Lakewood for thousands of women in memory of the Kedoshim of Har Nof:
“There are women who have decided that they want to be machmir to wear tichels as often as they can, whenever they have the opportunity, rather than wear the sheital. We have to be mechazek them! They’re not extreme, they’re not fanatics, they’re not the Taliban. People who use such terms, they use it just to validate themselves so they shouldn’t have to confront the emes. These nashim tzidkaniyos are pashut women who went through our chinuch. They went through our Bais Yaakovs, they were mekabel the mesora al pi derech hamesora from tzaddikim and gedolei Yisroel. They were taught to live with the truth and to respect the truth. And they looked at these sheitals and they said to themselves- this contradicts my values, this is not emes, this is hypocrisy, this is not yiras shamayim. And we should admire them and we should aspire to their level of yiras shamayim. “November 10, 2017 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #1401137
Thank you Yeshiva world for your tolerance of my posts- this topic is usually not very well received no matter how long our short the message is- no one likes to hear they might be wearing something immodest
I’m not insulting all women who wear wigs, i’m quoting words of Gedolim and pointing out how many of the current wigs were screamed out about by chashuv Gedolim as being pritzus.
It’s a major problem in the klal that very few are addressing. We could all cry about all the tzaros in the world but it says clearly in Devarim that the shechina leaves us when we are not modest and tragedies than occur.
Everyone is irritated with what I’m writing because many times the truth is hard to hear- especially if it means that one might have to make a fundamental change (especially in the area of appearances) to correct a wrongNovember 10, 2017 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #1401139
No, everyone is irritated because you endlessly repeat yourself, ignore the gedolim whose psak that it’s muttar doesn’t suit your agenda, and don’t respond to the valid points made. Being disingenuous doesn’t help either.November 10, 2017 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #1401145
I am not irritated! Thank you Dancingmom for sharing all of your information. Its serious food for thought.November 10, 2017 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #1401151MenoParticipant
“the truth is hard to hear“
It is, isn’t itNovember 10, 2017 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #1401156
The vast majority of the poskim who were mattir certainly would tell you a tichel is preferable to the wigs available today.
There are heterim for heter mechira, pas akum, bishul akum, and all other sorts of heterim for a shas hadchak.November 10, 2017 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #1401162
There are all sorts of wigs. Yes, some are not tznius, but some are fine (and I’m not talking about the short stiff wiggy ones) , and the poskim have no issue with them.November 11, 2017 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1401165refoelzeevParticipant
Wow this thread devolved quickly. It started with an unsubstantiated fact, that the majority of wigs are from idol worship, and based on that assumption, unsurprisingly many chashuv rabbonim assured. Did anyone address my request for a source for this statistic?
Now the thread has changed focus to banning all wigs regardless of idol worship. I think we have bigger things to worry about…November 11, 2017 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1401166refoelzeevParticipant
By bigger things to worry about I meant bigger problems to deal with.November 11, 2017 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #1401171
“Thank you Yeshiva world for your tolerance of my posts- this topic is usually not very well received no matter how long our short the message is- no one likes to hear they might be wearing something immodest”
no, no one likes to hear people talking non stop in your face, harshly and condescendingly with no Halacha backing you up. What nerve you would have to tell me I cannot follow my rav. What kind of agenda are you running there? We should go rabbi shopping? What business do you have telling people in such unkind manner that their posek is an idiot or is just ignorant or that you should not follow him. Why in the world would you think that it is appropriate to speak to people that way?
How sad that you want to increase tznius but have chosen a method that belittles and goes against what the Torah asks of us, namely, following our rov.November 11, 2017 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #1401180November 11, 2017 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #1401181November 11, 2017 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #1401201
In the second one (‘לב: י), it says that being makpid not to wear פאה נכרית (he is clearly referring to shaitels which look similar to real hair) is “כמעט בלא טעם”.November 11, 2017 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #1401229
Sorry, Syag, not buying the sudden pro-shaitel stance. We know you wear tichels. I have a feeling “dancingmom” is just your latest alias.November 11, 2017 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #1401248
do you even bother reading posts before commenting on them? where do you come up with this stuff? latest alias?November 11, 2017 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #1401251
do you even bother reading posts before commenting on them?
Depends how long they are. I didn’t read all of the posts you wrote as dancingmom, but I got the gist.
If there’s a more recent one, I haven’t caught it yet.November 11, 2017 11:12 pm at 11:12 pm #1401253yehudayonaParticipant
I was speculating that dancingmom is one of Joseph’s aliases. Then I came up with the idea that dancingmom is Joseph’s wife, but I quickly dismissed that because he wouldn’t let his wife dance.November 11, 2017 11:23 pm at 11:23 pm #1401255
OMG, is Syag my wife??!November 11, 2017 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #1401257Little FroggieParticipant
Just to get mixed into the fry..
The Gemarah in Sanhedrin 112 says “Hair of a righteous woman”, and Rava corrects that as פיאה נכרית. So obviously one can be a righteous woman and wear a פיאה נכרית.November 12, 2017 12:38 am at 12:38 am #1401259
So obviously one can be a righteous woman and wear a פיאה נכרית.
Tell that to Syag/dancingmom.November 12, 2017 1:25 am at 1:25 am #1401266
woah, what are you guys drinking?
Joseph, I can’t be your wife because even though I spend my days barefoot in the kitchen raising children to be subservient to their parents, I wouldn’t live in NY for a million dollars.
DY – seriously twisted. totally not my style to sock puppet myself. and I have never,in all my posts about not wearing sheitels, spken out against those who wear them. I would certainly not be so demeaning to people following daas torah. get a grip. or better bifocals or something.
sheesh.November 12, 2017 7:49 am at 7:49 am #1401289Avram in MDParticipant
Go easy on Syag Lchochma , she has to wear tichels because all hubby buys for her are Paula Young wigs. All of these dancingmom posts are her attempt to justify his behavior and cover for the fact that he’s a cheapskate. That might end soon, however. First, he says that she’s not his friend, and then one evening last week before bed she saw his briefcase knocked over. Underneath the Rav Miller tapes were a bunch of milky way bars, small sized like Halloween candy. He claimed that he had a cold and a Rav told him it was ok, but she wondered why he had asked that Rav all the way across town instead of their own Rav.November 12, 2017 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #1401842
“Anyone who calls a tichel extreme is showing complete ignorance about the mitzvah of kisui rosh ”
Let me be clear,
If you will care to look again at my post… This was written in response to someone else – not to you nor to very concept of wearing a tichel. Rather, it was against the “methods” of one suggested, one who seems to constantly be on a world of his own and, always on the extreme side.
I have no issue with someone trying to elevate her kedusha, nor does it irritate me, what irritates is trying to “insist” others when they are following clearly the accepted Halcha. Especially when that person has no backing and, hasn’t responded or proven anything…
There are much more important issues that need chizuk, things that go against all halachik barriers!November 12, 2017 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #1401849
“This is the basis of Rav Ovadia Yosef’s brilliant teshuva, how the shiltei Giborim never meant for wigs to be worn outside and Rov poskim (ashkenaz and sephard) did not allow the use of wigs – therefore it is forbidden. It aways amazes me how so many ignorant people will just dismiss the word of a halachic genius like Rav Ovadia Yosef who was able to be lenient in all areas- Yet he couldnt find a halachic heter for the wigs.”
Before I respond let me clear, no one denies Chacham Harav Ovadia’s Gadlus, I happen to have gone through many of his works in יביא אומר and others including this one in Vol 5, I don’t know why it should be a factor, this is how he understood that concept and most poskim including the Mishnah Brurah, Rav Moshe, the Chazon Ish and Brisker Rav ZTL understood differently.
— כבודו במקומו מונח
but this is not how Torah and psak works.
To be cont.November 12, 2017 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #1401874
Were the sheitels of 150+ (or 100) years ago natural human hair or were they something else like synthetic or fake hair?
If the majority of sheitel wearers 150+ or 100 / 75 years ago didn’t wear natural human hair sheitels, it could be the quoted poskim from those times were speaking of a different product/question in their psak than the issue with the majority of wig products in the Jewish market today.
Somewhere earlier in the thread someone claimed that it is only in recent times that most women wear just wigs whereas in previous generations most women had the custom to wear something else, either in addition to a wig or instead of a wig. When/why did the custom for most Jewish women change to wear only a wig?
I seem to recall it might have been the Czarist Russian government that legislated in the 19th century against Jewish women wearing a visible head covering, and the police beating women caught with their hair noticably covered, that prompted many women to change to using wigs instead of snoods.November 12, 2017 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #1401892
Said GAON: “Before I respond let me clear, no one denies Chacham Harav Ovadia’s Gadlus, I happen to have gone through many of his works in יביא אומר and others including this one in Vol 5, I don’t know why it should be a factor…”
Let’s be clear on something.
Rav Ovadiah permitted Agunahs to remarry. Rav Ovadiah permitted the sale of Holy Land during Shmitta. Rav Ovadiah halachically permitted Oslo. Arguably, No Sage over the last several hundred years ever ruled as leniently (while based on thorough scholarship). With regard to wigs. Rav Ovadiah wrote: “I searched and I searched and I could find no basis to permit”
So just let that sink in for a minute
All that aside. You can debate all day long what the prohibition of head covering does or does not involve. My point is you can not simply take a teshuva written in 1968 under a very different set of circumstances and realities, and refuse to acknowledge the present situation, which is very far from the situation Rav Moshe ZTL encountered and responded to, back in that time. That is not how psak works. Things change. One needs to consider whether Rav Moshe would have really permitted today’s wigs which are nothing like the straw of 1968. And if we do not know, we can not quote.November 12, 2017 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #1401897
One needs to consider whether Rav Moshe would have really permitted today’s wigs which are nothing like the straw of 1968. And if we do not know, we can not quote.
One needs merely to actually read the teshuvah to see that he is clearly referring to wigs which look similar to hair.November 12, 2017 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #1401902
Some quotes from the teshuvah:
כיון שעכ”פ ניכר לנשים אין לאסור, וממילא אין לאסור גם כשלא ניכר לפעמים
כיון דידוע לכל שיש ללבוש פאה נכרית שתהיה נדמית כשערות האשה עצמה אין לאסור
You can read the whole teshuvah, which I posted above, to see that these quotes are completely in context.November 12, 2017 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #1401903
But were the Achronim paskening regarding wigs that look similar to hair or were the Achronim paskening regarding wigs that actually have human hair?
Perhaps a halachic distinction exists between the two?November 12, 2017 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #1401907
But were the Achronim paskening regarding wigs that look similar to hair or were the Achronim paskening regarding wigs that actually have human hair?
Both.November 12, 2017 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #1401911zaltzvasserParticipant
It looks like the progression went like this: way back when, there were no wigs. So women wore scarves (mitpachos, NOT “miftachas” – I’m pretty sure that means “key.”). At some point, women were wearing wigs, since they’re mentioned by poskim. But by the early 1900s, the frummest women in Europe did not cover their hair, as documented in All For The Boss – see author Ruchoma Shain’s account of teaching one woman about the mitzvah of hair covering, in which she mentions that going with a totally uncovered head was very common at the time, as well as the many photos in her book of women – some of them rebbetzins! – with no hair covering. When we came to America, women became more machmir (in part thanks to the Bais Yaakov movement – see the biography of Rebbetzin Vichna Kaplan by Rebbetzin Danielle Leibowitz for more information), and began to keep the mitzvah of kisui rosh. Many chose to do so with wigs. As wigs got less wiggy-looking, people began to wonder if it was permitted after all. So they asked a she’elah. The gadol hador of America, Hagaon Harav Moshe Feinstein ztz”l, paskened that there was no problem. So the women in America continue to follow that psak.November 12, 2017 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #1401913zaltzvasserParticipant
For all those who contend that modern-day shaitels are too natural looking, Rav Moshe (above, in the photos so graciously provided) makes an analogy to removing one’s beard. Today, one can get a shave as clean as a razor from a shaving machine… yet, it’s not maris ayin. So too, Rav Moshe writes, shaitels are not maris ayin.November 13, 2017 6:25 am at 6:25 am #1401919
zaltzvasser – You’re talking about America. To be honest, prewar America was always less frum than prewar Europe. I was talking about prewar Europe and the prewar Mizrachi world. I think it’s been established that in prewar Europe and by the Mizrachim/Sephardim, most frum women covered their hair with more than just a sheitel or with something other than a sheitel (eg a snood.) Although we know that in certain countries (not all) in Europe, during certain periods, eg Lithuania in the inter-war era, there was a large problem of certain segments of frum women not covering at all, that was never considered acceptable and the rabbonim in those countries spoke against that phenomenon harshly.
What I was asking earlier was at what point in time, and for what reasons, did a majority of frum women change customs from wearing more than just a wig or something other than a wig, to covering their hair with a wig only.
I read some newspaper articles from the 1800s reporting in Russia that the Russian Czar wanted to modernize Russia, which at the time was highly religious even among the gentiles, and most Russian men sported beards in line with Russian Orthodox Church teachings. So the Russian government banned beards, overtly religious garbs and banned women from covering their hair (something Christian women also did at the time.) These regulations applied to both Christians and Jews, and the Russian police would beat anyone in the street who violated these anti-religious regulations. This was the period Russian peasents started shaving. This was also the same period that many Jews were forced to stop wearing long jackets (kapotes). And this it seems is when Jewish women started wearing wigs-only in large, or even majority, numbers. The reports read were of Russian police arresting and beating Jews (men and women) who violated these regulations by having beards, wearing long jackets or women noticably covering their hair.November 13, 2017 6:26 am at 6:26 am #1401921
Please look at my earlier posts, where I quoted undisputable proof that the original poskim ALL debated natural hair NOT synthetic. I.e. the Rema, Magen avrhom, Pri megadim, Sht”g and the opposing Be’er Sheva all speak about using your OWN hair.
The ones who permitted – permit all even if it looks exactly like hair I.e. your own hair. The ones who forbade forbid even synthetic and anything resembling hair.
There really is no third shita. Saying there is another concept of ‘wiggy” looking wigs is to a degree עם הארצות.November 13, 2017 6:27 am at 6:27 am #1401924
I will repost my earlier post as it’s a couple of pages back;
Based on your posts, it seems that you are really misinformed, and have no clue what the very argument was in the first place. You should really sit down and read the very sources – not copy/paste from a book, and then comment. As the very claim of differentiating Human hair, is to a degree ignoramus.
On the other hand, I’m not sure you are capable of that, and other readers might benefit, thus I will quote:
The source of all Matirim is the Shiltie Giborim, so let’s see what exactly he has to say:
שלטי הגיבורים” על הרי”ף שבת כ”ט ע”ב מדפי הרי”ף
“יראה מזה להביא ראיה וסמך לנשים היוצאות בכיסוי שערות שלהן כשהן נשואות, אבל במקום קליעת שערן נושאות שערות חברותיהן שקורין קרינאל”ו בלע”ז, מההיא דשנינו פרק במה מההיא דשנינו פרק במה אשה יוצאה שהאשה יוצאה בפאה נכרית בשבת, ופירשו המפרשים, כי פאה נכרית היא מגבעת, ידבקו בו שיער נאה והרבה, ותשים אותו האשה על ראשה כדי שתתקשט בשיער, והתם באשה נשואה מיירי מתניתין, מדקאמר בגמ’ דהטעם משום דלא תתגנה על בעלה הרי דבנשואה מיירי, והרי פאה נכרית הוי ממש כעין אלו הקרניא”ל, ומשמע להדיא שמותרות בנות ישראל להתקשט בהן, דשיער באשה ערוה דקאמר לא הוי אלא בשיער הדבוק לבשרה ממש ונראה גם בשרה עם השיער, אבל שיער המכסה שערה אין כאן משום שיער באשה ערוה וגם לא משום פרועת ראש.
ונראה דלא שנא שערות דידה לא שנא שערות של חברתה, כל עוד דעבידי לכיסוי השיער והן תלושות, אע”פ דקישוט הוא לה כדי שתראה בעלת שיער, אין בכך כלום ושפיר דמי….ולכשתעיין סוף פרק קמא דערכין ופרק מי שמתו בדברי רש”י שם ובדברי הרא”ש, תמצא דאין איסור בשיער
” אשה משום ערוה אלא במחובר לבשרה וגם שהבשר נראה עם השיער כדאוקימנא
As you can see the source of all Matirim is specific loud and clear:
“אע”פ דקישוט הוא לה כדי שתראה בעלת שיער, אין בכך כלום ושפיר דמי”
i.e. that even if her purpose is to look pretty as if wearing own hair – it is Muttar.
And is ONLY prohibited when :
במחובר לבשרה וגם שהבשר נראה עם השיער
Whereas, the opposing poskim i.e. the Bee’r Sheva etc. opposed for THAT very reason Joseph and Dancing is mentioning, that how can you say its muttar its still attractive “looks like hair” etc. (see Bee’r Sheva)…!
Despite all that, the Remah and more specifically the Magen Avraham defends the shiltas Shiltei Giborim and rules like him, the same with all others mentioned above – all ruled in favor of the Shiltei Giborim, despite all arguments of the opposing Be’er Sheva.
The Kaf Hachaim in ch 75 says the Shiltei Giborim is the final psak of all Achronim.November 13, 2017 6:27 am at 6:27 am #1401928
To all who claim that sheitels of the passed were ugly, stiff didn’t look real. …. I was born in the USA in 1920 , I had a close family members wedding in Europe in 1933 we traveled the whole family together to prewar Europe ( de alte heim) my mother a”h always had her hair covered which was not the norm in America at the time as I’m sure you all know. However in Europe we knew that every one was so frum so when we got there and I saw the rebbitzin from that local shte tel (a very chashuv family & a tsadeikes) I was shocked I remember asking my mother a”h, how is it that she is wearing her own hair ?? My mother answered me that she was wearing a sheitel . I remember like today all the women at that wedding all had sheitels that can easily compare to today’s sheitels, besides the fact that then short was in style but they looked real & were gorgeous . & many chasuveh Rabunim & roshei yeshiva attended that wedding (my father was a considered wealthy, the gevir from America) so don’t make it sound like this is new to this generation.November 13, 2017 7:41 am at 7:41 am #1401968
SeenItAll20: You’re 97?November 13, 2017 10:09 am at 10:09 am #1402039GadolhadorahParticipant
Yashyer koach on your mathematics and analytical skills…..impressiveNovember 13, 2017 10:29 am at 10:29 am #1402053
It was an expression of incredulity rather than addition.November 13, 2017 10:34 am at 10:34 am #1402078
As a shaitel macher for over 18 years I can say with certainty that the incredibly beautiful and well constructed wigs of today look nothing like the wigs of the 1930’s! We are fooling ourselves if we believe that a wig which looks “similar” to hair is the same as a wig which looks “exactly” like hair. Each story I hear about a woman who is wearing such a beautifully natural wig that has stirred up some talk or rumors because she appeared as if she wasn’t covering her hair ( as in the Mishpacha magazine article last week, or as the previous poster mentioned about the woman in prewar Europe) is clearly proving the concern about a natural hair wig possibly being problematic. When has it gone too far when we go out of our way to look as if we aren’t doing the mitzvah at all?! To some this may be more of a Hashkafic discussion rather than Halachik one. Just something to ponder….November 13, 2017 10:41 am at 10:41 am #1402088
Each story I hear about a woman who is wearing such a beautifully natural wig that has stirred up some talk or rumors because she appeared as if she wasn’t covering her hair ( as in the Mishpacha magazine article last week, or as the previous poster mentioned about the woman in prewar Europe) is clearly proving the concern about a natural hair wig possibly being problematic.
Yet, the Chazon Ish didn’t say it was a problem if it looked real, and neither did R’ Moshe.
You are fooling yourself if you think you discovered a new problem which the poskim weren’t aware of.
They were aware, and some of the biggest were meikil, even l’chatchilah.November 13, 2017 10:58 am at 10:58 am #1402097
Yes I’m 97 ke”h I Baruch hashem have 6 children & 39 grandchildren & many many great grandchildren of which some are B”h married I live in Brooklyn NY .
I bless u with the same & maybe 1 day you will tell the next generation what they used to wear in good old USA.November 13, 2017 10:58 am at 10:58 am #1402096
I don’t think that more than about 35 years ago (and really it got popular only more recent than even that) there were widely worn sheitels that were virtually indistinguishable from real hair (even to a maven or buki who can make such distinctions) that were commonly worn in Klal Yisroel.November 13, 2017 11:03 am at 11:03 am #1402107
Well how old are you ? Maybe you just don’t remember anything before 30 years agoNovember 13, 2017 11:18 am at 11:18 am #1402111
Slonimer – no need to go research Newspapers I will quote soon the Poskim in those times, in regard to Russia Czarist. Yes – the fact was that it did prompt that most Charedi women opted to go uncovered. Not everyone was able to afford a wig.
Other customs were banished as well due to the Gezeros, e.g. there were many places were married women shaved their heads, the Netziv speaks about it Emek Shailah – it all came to an end then.
I think only some Hungarian chasidim still do that…November 13, 2017 11:26 am at 11:26 am #1402112MenoParticipant
I just read R’ Moshe’s Teshuvos, which DY posted earlier. I’m confident that anyone who is speculating whether R’ Moshe would’ve given the same p’sak today simply hasn’t read the teshuva. R’ Moshe’s psak is very clear.November 13, 2017 11:33 am at 11:33 am #1402118
“You are fooling yourself if you think you discovered a new problem which the poskim weren’t aware of.”
I don’t claim to have discovered a new problem, nor do I assume the rabbanim weren’t aware, I am only lamenting how far it has gone, and if indeed the woman’s wig hadn’t looked so natural, then perhaps nobody would have presumed she wasn’t covered in the first place.
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