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These comments were made on a Youtube video titled
“Understanding Hasidic Anti-Zionism” by Frieda Vizel:__________________________________________
@yehudahecht1520 said this:“The Satmar Rov expelled Neturei Karta from his shuls.
And after Oct 7 [2023 CE], the Satmar community
sent millions of dollars to support their fellow Jews in Israel.”__________________________________________
@FriedaVizelBrooklyn said this:“That’s what we were always told, about Satmar Rebbe
expelling NK. I was never able to independently
substantiate it but I have heard it from many
in Williamsburg especially recently.”__________________________________________
@mikegee2819 said this:My grandfather was Satmar, but when the time came
to defend the Jewish people,
he wouldn’t think twice and joined the IDF.
He served in the Lebanon war.I remember as a teenager when I was in yeshiva in Israel,
he came to israel for a visit.He said, “Let’s go to the kosel. shhh, don’t tell anyone,
in sarcastic banter. He would read the Yid or Tzeitung
and cry every time there was a terrorist attack in Israel.__________________________________________
@cameronmichal said this:“Neturei Karta boils my blood.
They are not helping anything.”__________________________________________
@craiglevin9395 said this:“I am Orthodox but more in line with Rav Shach
and others who advocate a greater cooperation
with the secular state.”__________________________________________
@J.00-g4p said this:“Neturei Karta is like the Westboro Baptist Church of Judaism.
I guess every religion has a group that’s an outright embarrassment.”__________________________________________
@rob.953 said this:“Naturei Karta by supporting Hamas
and other violent enemies of Israel are
complicit in the murders of their fellow Jews.”__________________________________________
@RafaelRabinovich1 said this:“I understand that the Satmar Rebbe….openly condemned
those who desecrated Shabbos to march with gentiles
who celebrated the attack on Jews on October 7 [2023 CE].Meaning – he spoke against the support that the NK
lend to the first anti-Israel marches after Oct. 7, on 2023.Satmar does not aid, support, or sympathize with
violent acts against Jews, regardless of whether
those are religious or non religious Jews, Zionists or not.”__________________________________________
@ariebrons7976 said this:Also the Neturei Karta have been excommunicated in 2010.
Halachically they aren’t orthodox Jews anymore,
but rather “ethnic” Jews, or Hebrews.Excommunication in Judaism is quite a feat by the way:
After the Holocaust it has only ever been issued twice:
Against the Neturei Karta, and Lev Tahor.__________________________________________
@Sandra-Gibora said this:“Neturei Karta may be tiny, but they are so horribly visible and loud.
They are the evil son, Rasha, excluding themselves from the nation (klal).
And if they had been in Egypt, they would not have been redeemed.”
__________________________________________Please stop spamming these boards with your nonsense. If you have your own opinion, then that’s one thing. But we don’t need to read here random opinions from YouTube.
Your idol and its leaders are infinitely worse than any NK. If anyone loves the evil Zionists and their “State” but hates NK, then he obviously is not basing himself on Torah.
The NK have used some questionable means, but their message is the Torah’s message, and crucial for both gentiles and Zionist Jews: Zionism and its “State” do not represent Jews, and Jews are not responsible for anything the Zionists do or do not do.
NK helps the global jewish community ALOT on social media and YouTube.
If not for NK, there wouldn’t be a jew in the world that is safe.
They mitigate around 20% of the issues that the zionists cause.
I know there are people here who oppose the state of Israel and I appreciate the argument. I think they don’t appreciate that the state of Israel is the main way Hashem openly protects the Jewish people. We can agree to disagree. But any person or group who advocates with those whose goal is to murder jews is evil. Saying that there should not be a secular state of Israel before moshiach comes is very different than standing side by side and supporting terrorists with Jewish blood on their hands. Anyone who suooorts NK is not a follower of Avraham yitzchak and Yaakov and I can’t imagine Moshe would recognize him as a member of the covenant. On the day of judgment I can’t imagine HKBH recognizing someone who supports Hamas and Arafat as His son.
Whatever your view on Zionism is the NK are not a frum group. They are a Palestinian Nationalist group. And not just an a Palestinian Nationalist group , rather they always gravitate and advocate for whichever Palestinian Nationalist group is the most bloodthirsty and sadistic at the current time. They use their long beards and peyos to give a hechesr and haskama on people who in the non-Jewish world are looked at sadistic mass murderers. Not only that alredy in the 1930s Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzenski said about them and their ilk that for a Torah perspective they are less no guilty of the Shalosh Shevous and Hisgays B’Umoas than the ecther Zionists. Kal V’Chomr today when they are little more than a sadistic Palestinian Nationalist group
Satmar and Neturei Karta have similar views. However, in 1967 the Satmar Rebbe said that everything he says is just between Jews and not for the goyim. Rav Henkin zt”l said that anyone who tries to incite Arabs on the Yidden in Israel is a rodeif and moseir. Mesira is one of the worst crimes in shulchan aruch (v. Chohen mishpat siman 388 seif 1). Trying to egg on Palestinians and Iranians to kill Jews makes them kapos. The views of roitzchim and moisrim are irrelevant. Nobody asks a kapo what his views are. By contrast, the REAL Torah Antizionists like Rav Shternbuch zt”l pray that the yidden of Eretz Yisroel be protected from the Iranians. They don’t go hugging Khameini. As the Satmar Rebbe zt”l said in 1967, velamalshinim al tehi sikva. As the kotxzker rebbe zt”l said, frum alaein is a roitzeach. Don’t let the NK who hang out here ruin the views of real tzaddikim like Rav Shternbuch zt”l. One can be antizionist without rooting for yidden to die and without giving aid and comfort to Palestinians on their podcasts. The Satmar Rebbe’s views on Zionism are one in a sea of views. But the Satmar Rebbe zt”l wasn’t a killer. Don’t throw Satmar and NK in the same boat.
On the other hand, we know that most of the Pro Palestinian protesters are paid by various NGO’s. I always wonder how much these NK guys get paid for their redifus. Vos tut men nisht far kein parnassa.keith:
What you seem to miss is that they show that support specifically to prove the point that Zionism is diametrically opposed to Judaism and that the Zionists do not represent Jews so, therefore, Jews are not responsible for anything the Zionists do or don’t do.That doesn’t halachically validate their actions, but to make it seem as if they are inherently pro-Palestinian is simply silly. Again, by supporting the Palestinians, that demonstrates to the world that you cannot logically equate Judaism and Zionism and Jews and Israel, and that is the very crucially needed point, so that gentiles should not be angry at Jews because of anything the Zionists do or don’t do.
This should be obvious to all Jews.
hakatan is showing his true colors, hugging the sponsors of the murderers of thousands of jews is not the torahs message, the nk support the mass murder of yidden (whose death is considered al kiddush hashem), im not a zionist but there are many dl people who are far closer to hashem than hakatan
R’ Zilbershtein sleeps on a board as a reminder of the hostages while hakatan says that supporting hamas is Hashems message
The moderators should delete this entire stupid worthless
discussion, which was started by a lunatic who is hopelessly
addicted to laitzanus [mockery], which violates Torah law.ard:
You don’t seem to have understood what I wrote.Yes, as I wrote, the NK have used some questionable means, including hugging murderers, etc.
However, their message that is indeed the Torah’s message is that Zionism is the diametric opposite of Judaism and that the Zionist “State” is Zionist and not Jewish. Therefore, Jews are not responsible for anything the Zionists do or do not do.Hakatan likes to live in his own echo chamber it seems. Why don’t you just stop going on the internet altogether if you don’t want anyone to speak anything other then what you want or believe
Common saychel. The moderators should kick _you_ off cuz your a little too controlling
HaKatan – the point you make is far, far too subtle for the gentiles. Meaning – the gentile sees someone dressed like an orthodox Jew advocating for destruction of the Jewish state and standing with the mullahs encouraging them to kill Jews. Do you think they conclude that the secular state of Israel does not represent Judaism? Or do they conclude that even the Jews say we should destroy the Jewish state so let’s kill more Jews? When the secular world and the gentiles see what looks like orthodox Jews advocating for killing Jews they conclude “so it’s not so bad to kill Jews.”
In this day and age where there is so much ignorance about Judaism within the Jewish world and I’ve been told there is no such thing as apikorsus because people are too ignorant, anyone who advocates for killing Jews in general is not part of the Jewish people to my eyes. I can’t imagine HKBH looking down on them approvingly when they advocate for and support killing Jews in general.
In the short run, Neturei Karta’s position is absurd, the Iranians were planning to launch a massive bombardment of Israel including nukes, immediately followed by a large scale version of the Oct. 7 attack – with a realistic hope of a “Palestine free of Jews from the River to the Sea” (and under Iranian de facto control.
In the long run, Neturei Karta is probably right in that only peace will the Palestinians will preserve the yishuv, and the only way for a lasting peace is for the Jews of Eretz Yisrael to reject Zionism, and only the Hareidim could consider that.
keith:
Just the opposite. Many gentiles have nothing against Jews and our religion, Judaism. But they may or may not have an issue with Zionism and/or Israel, and, especially given the immense Zionist propaganda and lies about how they represent Jews and Judaism (all lies) these gentiles are left confused as to how to view Jews vis-a-vis Zionism and its “State”.These guys clarify for those gentiles that Zionism is obviously not Judaism (they are in fact diametrically opposed) because these very authentically-looking (and observing) Jews very clearly and demonstrably do not believe in Zionism.
It’s really not at all subtle, and gentiles are perfectly capable of picking up the distinction between Judaism and its polar opposite Zionism.
keith:
Regarding your second paragraph, I have never seen any NK advocate for the killing of any Jew. It’s true that they have marched with undesirables, but they have never advocated violence against anyone, from reports that I have seen.(While on that topic, the wicked Zionists murdered Dr. DeHaan in cold blood, and are responsible for not only the Holocaust and contributing to it, but there were well known examples of Zionists who collaborated with Nazis, like Kastner did. Yet no supporter of Zionism condemns the Zionists for their consorting with evil people and entities. So, if that’s your standard, then you should be left with the question of why that is so.)
The absolute foolishness displayed by people like “keith” is shocking.
It’s the PRECISE OPPOSITE of the truth!!When the gentiles see orthodox jews attacking zionism, it tells them NOT to kill jews, since we are not zionist.
They want to kill all zionists regardless. Question is if they will kill all jews too. To that, NK tells them NO!!You are safe in NYC because and ONLY because of NK. Go thank Yisrael David Weiss that you can live in America safely.
If not for NK, not a jew in the world would be safe!!
Rav Amram Blau and rav aharon katzenelbogen ‘s Neturei Karta has been hijacked by disgruntled Satmars, BTs and paid actors. Originally, Neturie Karta was a non-Hasidic group of Jews who already resided in Israel before the Zionist movement and who, quite frankly, were doing their own version of zionism before the Zionists showed up. They were not happy that the Zionists were coming to their land and telling them what it meant to be a new Jew when they were perfectly fine Jews. These people still exist in some parts of Jerusalem but the ones you see in the USA and on TV are former Satmar Hasids mixed with first or second generation BTs who got sidetracked (and paid actors standing alongside them).
>>>Just the opposite. Many gentiles have nothing against Jews and our religion, Judaism.
So now the NK has done away with “Esav Soney L’Yaakov” too. (They used to claim it only applies to the descendants of Esav) Of course the NK are not the first to do this. Most very assimilated anti-Frum groups believe that too. Most Mosrim who collaborated with those looking to kill Jews used the NK logic of by showing them that I/we the “good Jews” they won’t have issue with or bother me/us.
But that is where the comparison stops. Even the Mosrim and collaborators with those looking to kill Jews over the generations generally did not attend and speak at their anti-semitic rallies in an effort to lend support and fire up the crowd about the correctness of their cause. That level of Rishus is unique to the Neturei Karta
hakatan- literally every pro-zionist poster has strongly condemned the bad (mostly original) zionists
happy new year- thats ridiculous how many open zionists have been attacked in the us, no one cares about the nk and we are not required to thank ovrei avera for the (nonexistent) good that comes from their action
Shulchan Aruch (choshen mishpat siman 388) is rather clear on those who incite goyim on Jews. That’s not “questionable”, it’s moridin velo maalin afilu bezman hazeh. Retzicha isn’t “questionable”, it’s as much of a yehareig ve’al yaavor as gilui arayos and avoda zara.
There is no justification for that, even taking quotes of the Satmar Rebbe zt”l out of context doesn’t justify murder.
Lernt, there are cases where it is possible or even necessary to inform, such as when a crime was committed. I know someone who had to ask a shaila and he was told that he should truthfully answer all questions from the police about people in his congregation…
So, presumably, this crowd feels a religious obligation to do what they do. So, one aveira leads to another …
More comments about the Neturei Karta:
__________________________________________
@Square Root said this:“Fat girls don’t get dates!”
__________________________________________
@Sqaure root said this:“Short men don’t get dates”
__________________________________________
@Chanayah Weissman said this:“Sqaure Root is a cut and paster seeking attention.
_________________________________________
@Sqaure Root said this:“I need to go to the kevarim of the of gedolim and ask mechilah for taking something that someone wrote he said and twisting it to fit my agenda!!”
__________________________________________
From Hakatan:
I have never seen any NK advocate for the killing of any Jew. It’s true that they have marched with undesirables, but they have never advocated violence against anyone, from reports that I have seen.I guess we are to memory hole every time Neturei Karta flew to Iran or supported hezbollah. They supported people who literally called for Israel’s physical destruction.
Nobody used to apologize for kapos.Reminder
A] the following is somejew’s “psak” :
this is somejews language , copied and pasted :
In (very) short, that means that if goyim – chas v’shulem – threaten masses of jews, our kosher responses are: make peace, give gifts, run away, and pray to G-d. What we are not allowed to do is organize an army and physically fight the enemy.
[somejew]
——-
B] the following is maran habet yosefs psak in his halacha sefer the shulchan aruch :
halacha mandates , violating Shabbos to physically fight against an enemy that attempts to seize even ‘kash vateven’ —since it begins with kash and ends with lives (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, siman 329).
Will repeat again :
mandates to …. physically fight against an enemy.
—
This is the question mr somejew –
How do you fit A with B ?
.
.Somejew disappeared …..
was that a disappearance because of lack of answers ?
who knows ….
.
.where is somejew ?
@yankel-berel
don’t worry. i’m still here.
i’m trying to take your question honestly. it took me a while to figure out what i think your kasha is. and now i’m trying to find any meforshim that have the same hava amina as you. I haven’t found anything yet that even addresses the point, so i’m not sure how to respond.I believe we can both agree on the following:
If there is an imminent threat to the life of a jew, one is allowed to stop the murderer, even in galus.
That is also allowed on shabbos, because of p/n.
One is not allowed to organize an army and fight a ruling non-jewish king, as that breaks the 3 shavuos.This section of SA says the above regarding shabbos very clearly, making a distinction between saving money and lives.
There is an additional line about a yiddish border settlement in a yiddish kingdom (a safir), which is a quote from a braisa that rashi explains as such.So, I guess your kasha is that this braisa is talking about a yiddish kingdom in galus? or that jews are supposed to be mechalel shabbos to protect a non-jewish kindom (and not like rashi? explains the words).
So, I don’t really understand how you are learning the above, but I’m trying to find anyone who explains it as above.
The way I read this, since its the language word for word of the braisa as quoted exactly like this in the Tir as well as the Rambam, it is very hard to say that those authors meant any other meaning or application outside the specific application as is explained in Rashi that it’s not relevant in galus but is meant to be an added nuance to hilchos shabbos. However, I haven’t found any practical use of this line in SA in rishonim or achronim, so I I’m not sure what novel halacho it is meant to bring in SA.
In any case, if you somehow get past the meaning of the braisa and remove the word “safir” and apply it to the time of galus even when not an edge city to a kingdom, your argument against me would then seem to be that if a rebel gang of non-jews is an imminent threat to murdering a jew you can fight back whereas I quoted the chofetz chaim ztz”l (in lekutei torah on the parsha) that learns from yaakov about how we respond in galus. If we come to that generous point of the conversation, I would certainly admit that the distinction between a single rebelious non-jew attacking and a group of three rebellious non-jews attacking is not well made anywhere, and you perhaps could ask your kasha on the chufetz chaim on where exactly the red line falls. Again, I don’t think this SA is where THAT question would come from.
If you do know any classic meforshim that do address your understanding and certainly if I misunderstood you completely, please let me know. I was hesitant to write as much as I did here, since I don’t like saying anything from my own understanding, but you seemed eager to learn the sugya and wanted an answer, while meaningful source poskim are lacking in addressing your question.
pojpjp
NK is not better than the Kapos in the 40’s. They cite halacha and Rabbanim, but the end result, they are worse than the meraglim. No true Daas Torah hold of them. And before you quote some random guy, be aware, I stand by my statement. No true Daas Torah holds of them. If you quote anyone, read my statement again. No true Daas Torah holds if them.
@somejew
====================================================
….and now i’m trying to find any meforshim that have the same hava amina as you ….—
it’s not a hava amina , rather it is a maskana.its not the same as “me” , rather the same as the overwhelming majority of klal yisrael and their gdolei talmidei hahamim
===================================================
somejew:I believe we can both agree on the following:
If there is an imminent threat to the life of a jew, one is allowed to stop the murderer, even in galus.
That is also allowed on shabbos, because of p/n.
One is not allowed to organize an army and fight a ruling non-jewish king, as that breaks the 3 shavuos.ad kan divrei somejew
—no , absolutely not
we totally cannot agree on your words
.
.in the case of the tsorerim who come al iskei kash , mentioned in shulhan aruch . how exactly are you fighting them ?
only one man at a time ?
come on . there is a rabim who are coming and there is a rabim who are defending .
the rabim who are defending are told to do so by a certain non agadic sefer called shulhan aruch
written by the master of halacha , the bet yosef .
.
.i rest my case.
==============================================All your problems in understanding this berayta and psak in shulhan aruch stem from one source only :
– your insistence that
A] not like shut avnei nezer [sof YD] …. the shavu’ot are binding lehalacha
B] even if the 3 shavu’ot , would be binding lehalacha ,
pikuach nefesh , while docheh everything else , including actually swearing false or contravening a previous shavu’a
is for some mysterious reason not docheh those shavu’ot..
.
.
Change – for one moment only – your insistence about A and B ,and you will see that all your problems in understanding the shulchan aruch , the tur , the rambam and the berayta will disappear in smoke.
.
.
.
try it .
.
.
.I don’t have a problem with this shulchan aruch, rather you claimed it is a problem. I don’t understand the problem you claim to see, nor do you, apparently.
Beyond that, this was not even a conversation about the shalosh shevuas, it was a conversation about the chofetz chaim’s sefer lekutei torah that bothered you.
I’ll quote it here:
The Torah teaches us here not to stand up against the nations even when they confront us. We are obliged to follow in the footsteps of our father Yaakov during his war with Esav his brother. As the Ramban explains in Vayishlach: “This [episode] contains a message for the future generations, for all that has happened to our father Yaakov with Esav his brother will happen constantly to us with the children of Esav. And so we should follow in the way of the righteous one [Yaakov], and prepare ourselves for the three options for which Yaakov prepared himself then: for prayer; for giving gifts; and for salvation by way of war, meaning, by fleeing and thereby being saved. And behold — whenever we have followed this tried and true strategy, Hashem has saved us from our enemies.
— Translation from “Shapiro, Rabbi Yaakov. The Empty Wagon: Zionism’s Journey from Identity Crisis to Identity Theft.”
So your question is simply how the chofetz chaim understood the SA you mentioned.
I am now further confused by your ramblings now about how to be kofer in the shalosh shevios, something this SA has nothing to do with.
i realize i misquoted the name of the source from the chofetz chaim, the sefer is called chofetz chaim al hatorah. it is available on Hebrew Books, book #38071
somejew, quoting Chofetz Chaim> and for salvation by way of war, meaning, by fleeing and thereby being saved. And behold — whenever we have followed this tried and true strategy, Hashem has saved us from our enemies.
I hope this quote is not taken out of context – I only saw it on anti-Z websites. Taking as it is, Chofetz Chaim here raises a verifiable position: if we follow him, Hashem will save us. Sadly, this position utterly failed in pre-WW2 Europe – Jews were slaughtered first in Soviet Russia during his lifetime and soon after his petirah by Nazis. Furthermore, I suggest reading his letters in 1920s in Poland during the wave of assimilation – Chofetz Chaim is pained by what is happening, but he is not offering any solutions beyond “have at least one kosher heder in a town”. So, by his own definition, Chofetz Chaim’s position was proven wrong. Same as R Akiva did not defend Bar Kochhba after the latter’s failure, Chofetz Chaim presumably would not cling to the same position were he lived through those facts. As some say, big tzaddikim are taken from the world before punishment comes …
>>>>The Torah teaches us here not to stand up against the nations even when they confront us. …Translation from “Shapiro, Rabbi Yaakov. The Empty Wagon:
This is a third hand quote from a sefer that wasn’t written by the Chofetz Chaim. You can be sure that the guy who wrote it didn’t give a hoot about the Chotfetz’s Chaim actual view on Zionism and only took what he could to brainwash his readers .
The view of the CC about Zionism is very unclear because he himself never wrote anything directly on the topic. Not only that, some of things he did write is used by the Mizrachi movement as proof he supported some of their goals . No one denies that he supported mass Aliyah and(frum) building up of Eretz Yisroel. Rav Leib Popkou (the son of the Choftez Chaim who wrote the Mishna Brurua with him was a member of Mizrachi. First on it’s Vaad Haruchni. He later became president of Mizrachi in Poland . I’m sure Shapiro didn’t tell you that. Rav Leib Popkou wrote in his biography about his father that the CC did see the wave of Aliyah after the expulsion of Jews from parts of Russia as the start of Kibbutz Goluyus. He writes much more on the topic beyond the scope of this post but he also wrote that his father was in fact anti-Zionist but he was never extreme about it and he opposed the anti-Zionist Kanoim too.
Fishman also pointed to the language that often used to describe singles, another factor that upsets singles. Why is a 35-year-old female attorney called a “girl,” while a married 19-year-old is called a “woman?” In addition, some singles complained of “being Shabbosed,” a term that refers to last-minute Shabbat meal invitations, as opposed to those invitations for married folks that are always done in advance.
Above all, Orthodox singles seem to be craving simple friendship from their married peers.
Fishman also pointed out that singles urged more education at various age levels about healthy gendered relationships and mutual responsibility in a marriage. Unfortunately, one of the downsides of a more pervasive single-sex atmosphere in the Orthodox world is that it creates more troubled social interactions and unrealistic expectations between the sexes. Orthodox singles felt that more education about communication skills and dating is needed, starting in middle school and continuing through young adulthood.
Orthodox singles also desire more natural and organic opportunities to meet one another in educational and social functions, friendship gatherings and family celebrations, similar to the way people used to meet a couple of generations ago. It seems that even though there is a desire among observant singles to turn back the clock and return to a simpler way of meeting and interacting with others, we still rely strongly on shidduch resumes, shadchans, checklists and the like. Perhaps Fishman’s findings will convince people to reconsider the shidduch culture that now dominates the Orthodox community.
Fortunately, there are also good things happening within the Orthodox singles community. Singles themselves (never married, widowed and divorced) have developed wonderful support networks and mini-communities among themselves, where they can socialize together and create bonds of friendship. And organizations such as YUConnects and SawYouAtSinai have harnessed the power of online technology to create matches that years ago might never have happened.
I also hear the term “shidduch crisis” used less and less, which perhaps is also good news. It’s a term that I felt was never appropriate (the war in Ukraine is a crisis, Orthodox singles finding it more difficult to get married is not a crisis).
With that said, I do feel it’s important that we listen to the voices of Orthodox Jewish singles and hear what they are saying and how they are feeling. And that we do what we can to make them equal partners in our larger Jewish community.
The Chofetz Chaim would never approve of malshinim hugging those whop want to kill Jews. He loved all Yidden.
I don’t have a problem with this shulchan aruch, rather you claimed it is a problem. I don’t understand the problem you claim to see, nor do you, apparently.
Beyond that, this was not even a conversation about the shalosh shevuas, it was a conversation about the chofetz chaim’s sefer lekutei torah that bothered you.
===
you turn the conversation on its head.
i was the one who asked on your assertion that one is not allowed fight even in the face of pikuach nefesh.
i introduced the mehaber maran habeit yosef
you were the one who introduced this quote from hafets hayims talmid.
read your own posts again.
somejew to yb:
I don’t have a problem with this shulchan aruch, rather you claimed it is a problem. I don’t understand the problem you claim to see, nor do you, apparently.
–Beyond that, this was not even a conversation about the shalosh shevuas, it was a conversation about the chofetz chaim’s sefer lekutei torah that bothered you.
===
you turn the conversation on its head.
i was the one who asked on your assertion that one is not allowed fight even in the face of pikuach nefesh.
i introduced the mehaber maran habeit yosef
you were the one who introduced this quote from hafets hayims talmid.
read your own posts again.
@yankel-berel
you are correct that I lost track of the original conversation. I also blame you, since you took a quote of mine out of context and put it into numerous threads, undermining the integrity of the conversation and your ability to try to understand what I wrote.While I certainly stand behind the words of the Chofetz Chaim, my original statement was indeed about the shalosh shevios, which include a prohibition of rebelling against non Jewish nations. As such, it would not inform us about how an individual should act in galus (as the Chofetz Chaim seems to speak about) rather it would inform us how to act as a group vis-a-vis the non-Jewish nations ruling over us.
With that, the Shabbos p/n halocho you referenced in SA has nothing to do with the shalosh shevios, as that halocho is talking about a band of violent non-Jewish troublemakers, whose defeat by local jews would certainly be fully endorsed by and praised by the non-Jewish authorities. SA tells us that even such an armed resistance is allowed on shabbos.
> is talking about a band of violent non-Jewish troublemakers, whose defeat by local jews would certainly be fully endorsed by and praised by the non-Jewish authorities.
Russian word “pogrom” is defined as an attack by troublemakers who are implicitly supported by the government. Would you endorse organizing a response in this case?
Would I endorse organizing a response in this case? sure daven, bribe, and run away. As the Chofetz Chaim taught, following this path has served us very well in galus. Only when we have rejected those teachings have we seen such destruction, exactly as the Talmud warns us.
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