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There are Jews in Iran and Morocco today.
So you’re saying that when the Arab countries expelled 800,000 Jews in 1948, it was because all of those Jews were Zionists?
Yes, of course they have a point. The Ponovoze Rosh Yeshiva zt’l once said, when asked about the NK protesting outside against his position on interacting with the State, said that if the NK weren’t out there protesting he’d have to hire protesters to protest his position, because he said his position permitting the frum Yidden to interact and deal with and benefit from the State was a b’dieved position that was necessary bshach hadchak at the time. But that under normal circumstances the NK position was the Torah correct position under ideal circumstances. And even though he held that today under the current circumstances it was necessary for him to permit dealing with the zionists, it was necessary for the public to know that it wasn’t the pure Torah position without the shas hadchak. And thus it was necessary for it to be protested.
And what is your point? What does Neturei Karta have to do with Jews, Iran or Morocco?? They are a unique cult based in the New York area.
Well yes they have a point. Satmar Rebbe, whose shita they supposedly follow, said about them “Velamalshinim al tehi sikvah”. Yet they persist despite no backing from any gedolim. Their point is when one doesn’t have Daas Torah to follow, one can be a rotzeach.
Why say Neturei karta’s point? It’s the Satmar Rebbe’s point. Why mention reshaim when you can mention a gadol?
Even if they have a point, why has the existence of the State of Israel become the most important Halachah in all of the Torah? They claim that it is the biggest danger in Jewish life, when Zionism is dormant. It’s illegal to create settlements in most of Israel now, and the government has given so much land to the Arabs. How is it the biggest danger? The Neturai Karta’s stance is a DAAS YACHID in the Gemara, and plenty of Rabbonim have already said it is no longer nogeah today. To which the Neturai Karta answers, “Those Rabbonim are apikorsim.” And they follow no Gedolim.
As to their stance today, on how the war in Gaza is Israel’s fault entirely, and that Israel should stop their war, how does this make any sense? Just forget the 1,400 dead, and the 222 hostages? If they ever had a point, it’s been long swallowed up by common sense and facts.
Lake, Jews in those countries are forced to take that stance, but they are not justifying Hamas. They live in countries where they would be in mortal danger if they show support for Jews living in Israel.
What NK(or rather, the tiny, miniscule fraction of NK) does in America and England is far different. They are essentially condoning terror attacks in their view that Jewish lives can be sacrificed to dismantle the state.
Truthfully, that faction of NK are the flipside of zionists, with the eame core problem. Zionists claim that the state is so important and vital to the Jewish people that it can justify the loss of Jewish life, while the NK faction says that eradicating the state is so important that it justifies the loss of Jewish life.
They call this horseshoe theory; two radical ideas on opposite ends of the spectrum really are the same in practice.
Radical NK decided that the halacha follows the maharal(or rav yonasan eybeshuts, i forget which) who says that the 3 shavuos are yehereg velo yaavor. Who gave them the authority to pasken that way? They themselves did. And then they think that yehereg velo yaavor means that they can put OTHER people in danger, when it is only used to require one’s self to give up their own life if faced with the 3 chamuros. If goyim would force us on pain of death to violate the shvuos, that shitah holds we must let them kill us – but we cannot put other jews in danger to prevent them from violating them…plus the shevuos were already violated, and jews living there(including NK!) Is not a violation.
The Jews in Iran CANNOT LEAVE IRAN.
ANY Jew in Iran can be accused of being a spy-for-Israel at ANY time,
even with no evidence.And once that accusation is made, it will certainly result in:
imprisonment, confiscation of all money and assets, torture, and public execution.============================
This article from www JTA org is dated 1970 February 11:Hassidim Who Placed Newspaper Ad Attacking Zionism Forbidden to Enter Synagogue
Twenty young followers of the Satmar Rebbe have been forbidden to enter the Satmar synagogue, Congregation Yetev Lev, in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, as punishment for placing an advertisement in the New York Times two weeks ago calling Zionism “the greatest enemy” of the Jewish people, the Jewish Telegraphic Agency learned today.
The names of the young Hassidim were posted in the synagogue on Sunday following an investigation ordered by the Satmar Rebbe. The 20 young Jews were found to have been responsible for preparing and placing the advertisement and with raising funds to pay for it. One of the 20 came to services Saturday and the reader refused to proceed with services until the youth left. When he refused to leave, he was carried out bodily, the JTA was informed. The suspension will stand until the youths formally repent of their action to officials of the synagogue.’
============================
If you listen to the Neturei Karta, they will tell you that:
“before Zionism, Jews and Muslims got-along just fine.”This is NOT TRUE!!!
Not only is it not true, it is not even half-true.
Not only is it not true, it is not even close to the truth.
Not only is it not true, it is the opposite of the truth.Before Zionism, Jews were persecuted by Muslims at all times.
Before Zionism, Jews were persecuted by Muslims
for 1,300 years — or if you prefer, for 13 centuries.Jews were forced to pay special taxes to Muslims.
Taxes that were intended to force Jews into poverty,
not just provide income for the government.ANY synagogue could become a mosque at ANY time.
Jews were often beaten and killed.
Jews were often forced to convert to Islam.
Even in the 1950s, in Yemen,
50,000 Jews were forced to convert to Islam.Jewish orphans were often converted to Islam,
unless some Jew would adopt them,
or take them into an orphanage.Jews were subjected to special laws intended
to humiliate them, and make life difficult for them.In the 1980s, Rabbi Zevulun Lieberman
(of blessed memory, a former YU professor
and Orthodox synagogue Rabbi in NYC) once gave
a public lecture about the history of Syrian Jews.
I attended that lecture, and I remember his exact words.Rabbi Zevulun Lieberman publicly taught that:
“From the time that Syria became a Muslim country,
the Jews of Syria did not have even one happy day.”In the 1800s, there was a false blood libel against the Jews of Syria.
For decades after the Holocaust,
Syria was a haven for convicted Nazi-war-criminals.
Not only were the convicted Nazi-war-criminals tolerated,
but they were promoted to high government positions.For decades in Syria, Jewish children as young
as six-years-old were tortured-to-death by
government security agents,
while the Leftist news-media ignored it.============================
Rabbi Ovadiah of Bartenura said this,
in a letter to his father in year 1488 August 15:“Jews in Muslim lands make themselves appear poor.
They go about like an impoverished, despised people,
with their heads bowed before Muslims.”SOURCE: Pathway to Jerusalem: the Travel Letters of Rabbi Ovadiah of Bartenura, written between 1488 and 1490 during his journey to the Holy Land (Page 40) translated by Yaakov Dovid Shulman, year 1992 CE, 93 pages, CIS Publishers, Lakewood, New Jersey, ISBN 1-56062-130-3
============================
The next time someone tries to tell you that:
“before Zionism, Jews and Muslims got-along just fine”,
do not believe it, because it is not true;
do not believe it, because it is not even half-true;
do not believe it, because it is not even close to the truth;
do not believe it, because it is the opposite of the truth.Does Spinoza have a point?
Who cares about reshaim and if they have a point?Also, your copypasta from another old thread is kind of outdated, considering what just happened in mostly Muslim Dagestan.
I am not sure where this is going? They have a point historically. So if we lived in Shnucky Shapiro’s time machine perhaps ste the clock back 150 years and having no country would be better than today. But if you look at the present, there is simply no way to reset. Now that they are wild and enraged and mad, even if you gave them the keys from sea to sea they’d destory us in the most barabric way. basically its too late now. Its only a nice idoelogical idea of history. A what if thing. It has no value today.
As a side note, the arab countries you mention are m ore developed and were always more cultured. Either way alll this is, is a debate of history. Nowadays if you attend a Free Palestine rally you just encourage more killing and are a rahsa
Dear UJM,
Please tell us: In what year did “Ponovoze Rosh Yeshiva zt’l” say that?
Did he say that BEFORE 2023 October 7 when 1,400 Jews murdered by Hamas and more than 200 Jews were taken captive?
Or did he say that AFTER 2023 October 7 when 1,400 Jews murdered by Hamas and more than 200 Jews were taken captive?
Please consider that the situation in Eretz HaKodesh has undergone many big changes over the past 50 or 60 years.
For example: There are now more than 1,000 yeshivahs in Eretz HaKodesh, and a big Baal Teshuvah movement.
Therefore, what Gedolim said before the 1970s might no longer apply today.
Neturei Karta are reshoim. No, they do not have a point. You oppose Israel for a halachic reason? Fine, go ahead and oppose it. But how dare they go out and march with those who want to kill us? How can they go to Iran and meet with the leaders there? That is why they are 100% wrong, and are reshoim. Don’t compare them to Satmar – R’ Yoel would never have been friends with the leaders of Iran, or been mechalel Shabbos marching with Palestinian supporters.
The decisions that matter were made a century ago. Both the moderate zionists and the Hareidim were negotiating with the Arabs for what have been a Jewish “commonwealth” but not a sovereign nation (complete communal autonomy, economic freedom, unrestricted immigration). Two groups were outraged. One were the more fanatical zionists (both nationalists and socialists) since their dreams of a sovereign Jewish state would be destroyed. The other was the British Colonial Office, which greatly feared the emerging Arab state (possibly including all Arabs in western Asia) which included a Jewish commonwealth (and access to western tech) would undermine the British Empire. The Arabs had expected an independent state, as promised by the Allies during World War I, and had no problem if it included a non-sovereign Jewish entity.
The socialist zionists murdered the Hareidi negotiator and told the rabbanim to stay out of politics or meet the same fate. The Brits organized a pogrom targeting the Hareidim (note that encouraging religious and ethnic clashes was the standard modus operandi of the British Empire). Most Hareidim learned to live with the zionists and avoid anything more than asking for handouts and a bissel of autonomy. Neturei Karta went on saying “I told you so”, but its a century too late to do anything to end the war. Almost all Israelis will settle for nothing less the full national self-determination, and almost all Arabs will settle for nothing less than a single Islamic state “from the river to the sea”. It could indeed lead to World War III and the destruction of the world as we know it, but that is up to Ha-Shem, and it would be reasonable to notice that the goyim’s persecution of the Yidden would be the ultimate cause.
“Why mention reshaim when you can mention a gadol?”
If any “gadol” espouses the vile and disgusting views expressed by the NK with respect to current events, they are all collectively reshaim. I don’t think either of the two Satmar rebbeim share the NK perspective on current events, and if they do, I’ll avoid making any further comments since they would be blatantly disrepectful.
you can learn the sefer vayoel moshe, its not so simple black and white shita, its about 500 pages. you can also learn the sefer maanas chacham from r’ yoel kahan, who explains both the satmer rebbe’s shita and the lubavitcher rebbe’s shita and how they are very similar.
i dont know the niturai karta shita exactly, they probably base it in vayoel moshe, but learn the sefer and see for yourself!They were mehalel shabbos befarhesya. Their point is they are no longer yidden. As such they are no longer bechlal amisecha, even worse than secular Zionists who at least have the svara of tinokos shenishbu.
akuperma, what would have happened with those Yidden in the Jewish autonomy and the other Jews in Arab countries? You might argue that we should disregard their later hate of Jews as it was a response to zionists. Shoin. But simply look at how other minorities, and majorities also, are treated in the surrounding countries. At best, we could hope for a Jordan-type government, where only those Jews who create trouble would be killed. Or, we could have been under a government a la Saddam, Assads, ISIS … At best, most Jews would have left EY for now (like most christians did) and millions would have assimilated by now the way Jews in America did.
can you say troll?
No they do not have a point. At all. Zero. Kloom.
Neturei Karta of our generation was started by Rav Amrom Blau ztl and Rav Aharon Katzenelbogen zt’l.
The Neturei Karta that you hear on the news and see the videos of – those are sonei yisroel who broke off from Neturei Karta and hijacked the name, and are creating a chillul hashem. They have blood on their hands.Hakodosh Boruch Hu says (Brachos 64a): Talmidei chachomim are marbin shalom ba’olam, they bring welfare and peace on the world because Hakodosh Boruch Hu reacts to their presence.
The Neturei Karta, the ones who are actually guarding the city (Yerushalmi Chagiga 1:7), are the Noachs, the people of righteousness who find favor in Hashem’s eyes.A hedgehog has thousands of points, each of which is more intelligent than any NK has ever had.
Damoshe, merely meeting antisemites isn’t the issue – rav yosef chaim zonnenfeld sent yaakov dehaan hy”d to do that too…rabban yochanan Ben zakkai pleaded with Vespasian for mercy; this has a lot of precedent.
The issue is what they’re saying at those meetings. If all they did was say to have mercy on the Jews living in Israel because a great number aren’t zionists, that would have been fine. What they do is, seemingly, condone the violence and show support for Iran’s genocidal goal, because they think they must do so in order to get rid of the state by any means necessary.
And that’s what they do when they march with the genocidal “from the river…” people.It needs to be stressed that this is a very, very small number of people. Neturei karta are mostly Yerushalmis in meah shaarim who would never engage in these activities. It’s a rag tag group of mostly baalei teshuva who were led down this road. There’s only about 50 of them in the world, but they have a large media presence.
Their founder was a big tzadik, rav amram blau, who was known in Yerushalayim to take in the most disturbed, poor people who no one wanted to have a shaychus with. He’d give them fresh clothes and a hot meal.
A kanoi leshem shomayim can be identified by how he treats people and if he gets angry at other, non leshem shomayim things. Rav amram was a very big tzadik who loved Hashem, and couldn’t stand the pollution of eretz yisroel with tumah. But he’d never endanger even one Jewish life to achieve his goals.
“Do they have a point”
If someone runs a fire safety campaign (there always is in out community, especially in Kislev), they have a point when they say “I told you so” when the house catches fire. But it doesn’t do any good to lecture on fire safety when the house is burning.
The Zionists (both the various socialist groups, and the nationalists) can be blamed for the current war (and arguably the Holocaust) based on dumb decisions made 100 years ago (and sharing credit with the British Colonial Office and the various Palestinian leaders, in that order). But the house is on fire now, and that fire is very much capable of spreading to engulf the world. And absent time travel or going to an alternative universe, there is anything we can do now to repair the mistakes of a century ago (so yes, Neturei Karta has a point, but it is moot).
Rav Kahanamin never said that.
You made that up.As I myself noted, by now its a moot point. Even if you gave it all back Hamas would still kill us, So that isn’t an option. Maybe Kahana is the most practical now even though its so morally wrong.
Furthermore, all these talk about evil Zionism is very different than today. Ben Gurion Yimach shimo was a known murderer who put Zionism before Jewish lives both during the war and on Begin’s boat. Those old zionists who kidnapped Temen kids and cut their peyos off were pure evil. Todays Zionists while secular just aren’t that even Lapid. To use these cathcy kaniosha phrases from past generations are just so out of proportion. it lacks any intellectual honesty. Just because someone said it base don circumstances of 100 years ago, means nothing today. Don’t forget these are fellow jews. There may be a “halacha” that esav hates yakov. But there is no halacha that tzionim hate yakov.
The original Neturei Karta had their own shita before Vayoel Moshe was written. They may overlap sometimes but neither one is dependant on the other.
Look up on youtube Rabbi Amnon Yitzchak VS Neturei Karta
Better question.
Do all Jews use the kind of thinking that is so self-affirming in face of any evidence, or is Neturei Karta more extreme?
LerntminTayrah: “They were mehalel shabbos befarhesya. Their point is they are no longer yidden. As such they are no longer bechlal amisecha, even worse than secular Zionists who at least have the svara of tinokos shenishbu.”
I don’t know if what you claim about them is true. But even assuming it is, obviously you would say the same about OTD youth and other frum people who went OTD, that they’re not tinokos shenishbu, that they’re reshoim and they are no longer bechlal amisecha.
Correct? Or are you a hypocrite?
@UJM or a third option called a troll
from the chazon ish on how to treat todays kofrim r”l
חזון איש יורה דעה סימן ב אות טז
ונראה דאין דין מורידין אלא בזמן שהשגחתו יתברך גלויה כמו בזמן שהיו נסים מצויים ומשמש בת קול, וצדיקי הדור תחת השגחה
פרטית הנראית לעין כל, והכופרין אז הוא בנליזות מיוחדת בהטיית היצר לתאוות והפקרות, ואז היה ביעור רשעים גדרו של עולם
שהכל ידעו כי הדחת הדור מביא פורעניות לעולם ומביא דבר וחרב ורעב בעולם. אבל בזמן ההעלם שנכרתה האמונה מן דלת העם
אין במעשה הורדה גדר הפרצה אלא הוספת הפרצה שיהיה בעיניהם כמעשה השחתה ואלמות חס ושלום וכיון שכל עצמנו לתקן
אין הדין נוהג בשעה שאין בו תיקון ועלינו להחזירם בעבותות אהבה ולהעמידם בקרן אורה במה שידינו מגעת”.
חזון איש יורה דעה סימן ב סעיף קטן כח
“ובהגהות מיימוניות פרק ו מהלכות דעות כתב דאין רשאין לשנאתו אלא אחר שאינו מקבל תוכחה ובסוף ספר אהבת חסד כתב
בשם הגר”י מולין דמצוה לאהוב את הרשעים מהאי טעמא והביא כן מתשובת מהר”ם לובלין כי אצלנו הוא קדם תוכחה שאין
אנו יודעין להוכיח, ודיינינן להו כאנוסין ולכן אי אפשר לנו לדון בזה לפטור מן היבום, וכן לענין שארUJM, NK are supposedly frum. They are exposed to Torah and Mitzvos, and are still choosing to be mechalel shabbos.
As for otd youth, I have heard multiple psakim in terms of yom tov and cooking for them, but that’s for another thread. Maskim for many of them that they are reshaim. Some are rebelling against their parent not Hashem and would still be bechlal amisecha according to some poskim. Another poseik told me that if the otd person has one person they would not be mechalel shabbos in front of it would be enough. A third poseik told me that of course they are not bechlal amisecha, and when you cook for yuntiff you need to make a stew not chicken so there isn’t an individual piece that could be said it’s for them.So refreshing to see intellectual posts instead of the usual nonsense.
So refreshing to see intellectual posts instead of the usual nonsense.
For truths sake, I saw a youtube video, I think the link was posted here on YWN of the meeting between NK and Ahmedinajad YM”S. They clearly told him that Zionism is anti torah, and only some Jews support it is because they are “weak” and “give in”. So clearly, their motive is to save Jewish lives. Whether they are right or wrong, (probably wrong, but who knows?) they have good intentions.
In the legal world, a prosecutor trying to indite a criminal needs to provide a motive (the criminals motive of commiting the crime) otherwise, the evidence is almost useless.
What would be the motive of NK ?
I appreciate all itelligent answers.
@Fanatic, you don’t need a prove a motive to indict, all you need to prove with the preponderance of evidence that the crime was committed and the suspect committed the crime,
Motive is just a tool investigators use to narrow down suspects, please take some CJ classes.
PS the word is INDICT.Harvard Law Professor Alan M. Dershowitz said:
“Every current criticism of Israel – whether made by
Israelis, American Jews, or others – is used by
its enemies as part of an explicit
international campaign to delegitimize Israel.”SOURCE: Chutzpah by Alan M. Dershowitz
(chapter 7, page 213)
published in year 1991 by Little Brown & Co
ISBN: 9780316181372 * ISBN: 0316181374
==============================PERSONAL COMMENT: Delegitimizing Israel (as mentioned above by Alan M. Dershowitz) is a preparation for destroying Israel completely, which would certainly result in:
another Holocaust, and many thousands of homeless Jews, and many thousands of Jewish orphans, and many thousands of Jews with no parnasah.Fanatic, I think that people tend to focus on someone who they often disagree with, and these are often their neighbors with whom they disagree on a particular point. We see it in Israel, among different Jewish groups in US, in politics… maybe this is what sinas hinam is about.
So, when someone focuses on the enemy, then enemy of my enemy is my friend… avoid falling into this psychological trap, don’t be a fanatic.
@ Square Root: “If you can’t decide, on one hand get a half corned beef, and on the other get a half pastrami,”
Source: Alan Dershowitz when he owned a deliTheir point is to endanger the Jews living in Eretz Yisroel.
Now, one can be against the medina, like satmar and most of frum yidden wo doing things that give moral backing to Nazis.
By neturei karta having gone off the deep end and giving backing to Nazis lichoira they fall under the category of malshinim.
On the other side, look at the sefer AIm Habanim Semecha
My brother told me that he witnessed R’ Yankel Drillman yelling at some Neturei Karta members once. There had been an Atzeres Tefillah in Manhattan years ago, when there was fighting in Israel, and some NK members were protesting it. One thing R’ Drillman said was, “I daven for you every day – when I say v’Lamalshinim, I’m referring to you!” He also yelled, “DROP DEAD RIGHT NOW!” before walking off.
So yes, I’d say they are malshinim.@Damoshe, I once saw Yankel Feferkorn throw eggs at NK demonstrators on 13 Ave, the fact that both Yankels did something does not prove a point,
How was Avraham able to defend reshoyim of some? R Moshe says that he was interested in truth and ficing the wrings, and not focused on destroying the evildoers. I am not at the level to apply this to those who are trying to destroy us, but at least we need to apply this to each other.
some points of the satmer rebbe
1) he writes that the holocaust happened because of yidden transgressed the shvua to go up and conquer eretz yisroel before moshiach comes, and even more they established the medina without torah, and led yidden away from torah, to kfira, minus
2) this prevents moshiach from coming, he brings a gemara אמר רבי חמא בר חנינא אין בן דוד בא עד שתכלה מלכות הזלה מישראל rashi explains עד שתכלה מלכות הזלה – שלא תהא להם שום שולטנות לישראל אפילו שולטנות קלה ודלה:
he also brings that the only zchus we have for the geulah is waiting, and not having a government and not having any benefit from it.
i assume the niturai karta (at least some) base themselves on this.
see at length in veyoel moshe. (if you want to understand chabad’s shita, see מענה חכם from ר’ יואל כהן (you can search for a downloadable pdf on google for both seforim)Sechel, i explained the radical faction of NKs attempt at halachikally justifying themselves. It’s hogsash, and it has absolutely nothing to do with satmar or other Torah jews who denounce the state and zionism. Satmar distanced themselves even from the ehrlich, normal NK in Yerushalayim – they say the radicals are completely off the derech.
Common – rav drillman is a rosh yeshiva. If the story is true, it has a lot more weight than yankel feferkorn(rightfully) throwing things at them.
Multiple batei din have put them in cherem.
Satmar chasidim are well aware that the medina prevents the geulah, but we have absolutely no right to endanger yidden to bring the geulah. Same way we can’t kill or endanger jews who are guilty of lashon hora/sinas chinam, which is the main prevention of the geulah.
It just means we’ll have to wait even longer, perhaps; or maybe Hashem will be choser tachas kisei kvodo and go lifnin mishuras hadin and bring the geulah anyway.
Avira: Or, Satmar is completely wrong, and Israel is NOT preventing the geulah, but rather is a part of it.
Da, i have a new policy about not getting into arguments like this right now. I am pained beyond words every i see and hear the news about acheinu bnei yisroel hanesunim betzara. I don’t care which yarmulka they’re wearing or what ideologies they have right now. We’re being hunted down like chayos hasadeh. I’ve been yotzei the chiyuv macha’ah enough times on here already.
I’m explaining the satmar shitah because someone said that the radical NK has something to do with them, that’s all. Bli neder I’m only going to post explanatory things going forward.
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