November 2, 2023 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #2236965ujmParticipant
Reb Eliezer: Eim HaBanim Semecha doesn’t contain anything new. It’s a collection of all the old Zionist arguments that have long been disproven. The truth is, his position stood no chance to begin with, because even though R. Teichtel was a talmid chacham, he was opposing the collective Torah knowledge of the greatest Torah giants, including but not limited to Rav Chaim Brisker, Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh, The Chofetz Chaim, the Rogachover Gaon, The Lubavitcher Rebbe (Rashab), the Belzer Rebbe (R. Yisachar Dov), the Chazon Ish, the Brisker Rav, Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzensky, all who were opposed to Zionism and the creation of a State. So he was really quite outgunned from the start. The most extensive work on this topic is of course the Satmar Rav’s Vayoel Moshe, which disproves just about every Zionist “proof” ever conceived.
Eim HaBanim Semecha is not taken seriously outside of Zionist circles, because it is mostly emotional sermons and discourses (droshos), rather than a serious Halachic analysis. It’s an emotional outcry in response to the holocaust (he dates the introduction Parshas Tetzaveh 1943) and its clear that he was talking out of desperation for finding a safe haven for Jews, which many felt Eretz Yisroel would be. He confuses his personal feelings with Halachic methodology, Rebbishe vertlach with Halachic rulings, and so is not at all compelling.
Example: On page 147 he addresses a powerful statement in Ahavas Yonason by R. Yonason Eyebuschitz ZT”L that it is absolutely prohibited for Jews to take over Eretz Yisroel before Moshiach, even if all the nations want them to, which is kind of a problem for a religious Zionist like R. Teichtel. This is his response: “You should understand that the words of Rav Yonason only apply when there is no sign from heaven that we should all abandon the lands of Chutz Laaretz, meaning, when Jews can live peacefully outside of Eretz Yisroel … but not nowadays, when the words of the prophet came true, [that Jews will be hunted down by goyim]. So when the nations give us permission to return to our land, can there be any doubt that it is the will of Hashem that we return to Eretz Yisroel? I am certain, that if Rav Yonason Eyebushitz was living with us today and saw the terrible golus that we endure, he himself would say to us: ‘Brother Jews! The time has come for you to go to Eretz Yisroel, for this is the will of Hashem, for it is not coincidence what has happened to us in Golus, but rather it is the finger of G-d pointing to us to rise from golus…”
Now, of course, even in the days of Rav Yonason (about 250 years ago) Jews were persecuted, and all throughout Golus they were, too. Yet R. Teichtel decided that he knows how to quantify the measure of suffering that Jews are expected to tolerate in Golus, and what on the other hand is a “sign from Hashem” for them to return. He decided that he can read Hashem’s signs and that this, for sure, is what our suffering means. Where did he get this scale? Nowhere. He decided it on his own. He and only he decided that this “sign from Hashem” tells us that the Golus is over. Well, he can read whatever he wants into “signs from Hashem,” but this “sign from Hashem” has no Rashi or Tosfos to tell us how to interpret it. Nor did Hashem tell him how to read history, nor does he have any sources that his is the proper reading. Since when do we pasken sheailos based on personal feelings? It’s a nice sermon, but Halachicly it means nothing. Yet to him, not only is it Halachicly binding on everyone, but it “there is no longer any room for doubt”.
This attitude that “everyone has to interpret the world the way I do” often passes the line into the realm of the absurd. On page 98 he deals with the Minchas Elozor, who was a vehement opponent of Zionism. He was vehemently critical in general, actually, when it came to protecting the Torah. And nobody was beyond his scrutiny.
The following is R. Teichtel’s explanation of why The Minchas Elozor was against “Yishuv HaAretz”:
First, he tries to establish that whether the redemption will come miraculously or slowly and naturally depends on whether Moshiach’s coming will be because we “deserve it” (“zachah”) – in which case it will be miraculous, or because Hashem sent it to us despite our not deserving it, in which case it will be natural. Then he says, quote:
“And with this we have an open response to the entire objection of our master and rebbi, the holy scholar, the Minchas Elozor ZT”L of Munkatch, regarding being involved with building the land. For I myself was one of his group, and I knew that his entire objection was base don the fact that the redemption is going to come miraculously, not naturally … But his honor remains intact, for he on his high level believed that the entire world is on the high level where they deserve Moshiach, like he was. But the truth is that this last generation, unfortunately, not deserving of Moshiach, and therefore the redemption will come couched in natural methods.” – Aim Habanim Semechah p.98
In other words, the Minchas Elozor mistakenly and naively thought the whole world was Tzadikim like he was, but in reality he didn’t understand that the world doesn’t really deserve Moshiach. Now never mind how R. Teichtel decided he can judge the world and decide whether they deserve Moshiach or not; never mind that he has not one Halachic shred of evidence to back up this position of his; but to say that the Minchas Elozor naively looked at the whole world as much more righteous than they actually are, as deserving of redemption when in fact they don’t deserve it, is beyond ludicrous and for anyone who knows anything about the Minchas Elozor, totally dishonest. If there was one person in the past hundred years who we would say is not guilty of overrating the world, it could very well be the Minchas Elozor. If he’s not first on the list, he’s second.
R. Teichtel’s sefer comes without any Haskomos (approbations) form anybody. But he did want Haskomos, so what he did was he took Haskomos out of another sefer, and printed them in his sefer, saying that the Haskomos would certainly apply to his sefer too, since the two seforim generally say the same things. But none of the rabbis of his time wrote him a haskama.
Note: Eim HaBanim Semechah speaks basically about building the land. The topic of creating a sovereign state – which was the major objection to Zionism – is almost completely ignored. Perhaps this is what the Lubavitcher Rebbe meant (told to the author’s son, quoted in the introduction, p. 21 ) when he told the son of author to “publicize that your father was a G-d fearing Jew who was far away from Zionism”. I would think this is because in his sefer he never argues in favor of a Jewish State, but rather in favor of building up the land.November 2, 2023 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #2236971
“In supporting the destruction of Israel,
are anti-Zionists unaware that millions of Jews
in Israel would be killed in such a war of destruction?
Anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism both would cause
Jews to be homeless, suffer, and die.
And that is all Jews need to know about them.”
SOURCE: The Nine Questions People Ask about Judaism
(chapter 6, page 130) by Dennis Prager and Joseph Telushkin,
published in 1975 & 1981 by Simon & Schuster in New York City,
ISBN 0-671-42593-5 * ISBN-10: 0671622617 * ISBN-13: 978-0671622619
“For some anti-Zionists these differences between
anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism may have some significance.
For Jews, however, these differences are entirely academic.
Though some anti-Zionists may sincerely believe that
they are not motivated by hatred of Jews,
THE CONSEQUENCES OF ANTI-ZIONISM AND ANTI-SEMITISM
FOR THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE THE SAME.”
SOURCE: The Nine Questions People Ask about Judaism
(chapter 6, page 122) by Dennis Prager and Joseph Telushkin,
published in 1975 & 1981 by Simon & Schuster in New York City,
ISBN 0-671-42593-5 * ISBN-10: 0671622617 * ISBN-13 978-0671622619November 2, 2023 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #2236975AviraDeArahParticipant
Worthy of note is that zionism, which is jewish nationalism – the idea that jews are a nation because of things besides the Torah (land, language, kinship, culture…) is not mentioned at all in aim habanim. He talks exclusively about the mitzvah of yishuv haaretz and loving eretz yisroel. Not only does he not talk about a state, but he also does not talk about nationalism whatsoever. So in no way was he a zionist.
Someone can even think that the jews returning to the land is a harbinger for the geulah and not in any way be zionistic. However those who do believe that tend to be zionistic from my experience.November 7, 2023 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #2237023commonsaychelParticipant
Wow, 52 responses to this, that is a double NK membership, why waste time on 26 deranged BT’s?November 7, 2023 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #2237181BY1212Participant
To a large degree, the pro medina/anti medina machlokes is moot.
The medina for better or for worse is here and as much as one legitimately hates the medina, it is not possible for it to go away bderech hateva wo horific danger to Jews.
The question that is lmaaseh today is : how does a frum Jew support the medina vis a vis how it protects Jewish lives and enables a relatively comfortable torah lifestyle wo comprising on ones ideological opposition to the state as the states mahus is in clear opposition to almost all torah values.
Btw, this is the real reason frum Jews don’t serve in the army en masse – the state is not our state. It does not represent us any more than the USA or Russia does, so you won’t find any mass of yungerleit signing up for the marines or the Wagner group either. We are still in golus and will only identify with a political entity when it is under Melech haMoshiach and Sanhedrin.
OTOH, serving in the idf in order protect Jewish lives is a zchus that can’t be overestimated.
The challenge for frum Jews is to balance these two concepts that can easily be misunderstood as being at loggerheads when in fact they are not.November 7, 2023 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #2237219boyanerParticipant
So is israel because it says kamala harris ‘ stepdaughter or zelensky technically wouldnt be a “jewish” person ?
Why is israel run by cultist nationalists instead of just nationalists?
Israel favors hamas because it doesnt designate joe bidens vice president harris’ daughter as a jew because she cynically uses that fact to support PalestiniansNovember 7, 2023 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #2237583ywnjudyParticipant
Avira, when you said about both sides of the same coin (Zionists & NK), it reminded me of socialism and fascism also being two sides of the same coin. Useful idiots have for centuries been easily brainwashed to think in terms of black & white, with no grey areas. So according to ANY brainwashed idiot-extremist these days, that means that Successful-whites = Evil. And Nebby-people-of-color = Good.
THAT is their religion. And once someone is labelled “Evil” – in their minds – they have license to do the most heinous things to them. Because after all, their cause is “just”. The OTHER side of the coin (of the useful-idiots) are the billionaire elites who’ve been manipulating everything and everyone. They use the environment and overpopulation as some of their “justifications”.
You also stated “acheinu kol beis yisrael hanesunim batzora”. I’d like to add, that everyone should be instructed to sing that song as follows: “Hamakom yerachem, yerachem aleihem V’ALEINU VEYOTZIENU mitzara lirvacha etc.etc.” Because we’re ALL targets these days, and it can get even worse in chutz l’aretz. Way way worse, like a powder-keg.November 9, 2023 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2238310Chaim87Participant
Can someone please elaborate how this relevant for today? You think if CV’s Hamas entered Torah viryah they wouldn’t have done the same because its NK? What’s the practical shita of NK today now that the beast called Hamas is running would and out to kill us? Is it that we give them from sea to sea (whatever Tlaib’s slogan is.) If the govt completely hands the knesset over to Hamas, no more tzionim, will they stop killing us or will it be worse? I think we all know the answer but please do enlighten me. What’s should we do today about it?November 9, 2023 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #2238447
Maybe the simplest way to explain why the Neturei Karta are wrong is to say:
They do not know when to stop.
Maybe they had a legitimate argument [shita] 150 years ago, or 120 years ago, or even 100 years ago, but they lost that debate 75 years ago, and they are the only people who do not know that.
I once learned that if a Jew speaks Lashon HaRa, and the person listening is not Jewish, then the speaker is guilty of both Lashon HaRa AND CHILLUL HASHEM.
(I do not remember the exact source for this, maybe someone reading this can give us the exact source.)
Since the Neturei Karta repeatedly speak negatively about Jews, and millions of non-Jewish people listen to them, they are guilty of both Lashon HaRa AND CHILLUL HASHEM.
The Neturei Karta repeatedly show millions of non-Jewish people that Jews are disunited and hate each other, which is also a Chillul HaShem.November 13, 2023 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #2239227Reb EliezerParticipantNovember 16, 2023 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #2240383The little I knowParticipant
The NK of today has zero connection with that of years ago. They are not recipients of any mesorah, and I doubt there is even a family connection. Regardless, they give us every reason to question their ancestry. Are they even Yidden? They have certainly engaged in horrific forms of chilul Hashem, and they have caused great harm to all of Klal Yisroel. They should be ostracized in every way. Not given entry to our batei midrashim, not accepted for shidduchim, and otherwise isolated from our community. Yes, their children should not be accepted in our yeshivos. Don’t get swayed when reading communications from tzaddikim of long ago that spoke about NK admirably. This isn’t the same group at all. This one is an enemy to Klal Yisroel.November 24, 2023 9:36 am at 9:36 am #2242125
According to an article by Yerachmiel HaLevi on 2023 November 10 on Quora dot com, the Neturei Karta “RAISE MONEY” for Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran.
If this is true, then the Neturei Karta are guilty of all the murders and injuries and atrocities committed by Hamas and Hezbollah — including the murders of Jewish children and babies.
When will we get SERIOUS about stopping the Neturei Karta?November 24, 2023 11:07 am at 11:07 am #2242172commonsaychelParticipant
Wow a whole new level of nonexpert opinion, a nutjobs rambling on the internet, if you want facts some homeless man in shomer shabbos told me the mossad really did the Oct 7, it must be factual because he said it.November 24, 2023 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #2242178Chaim87Participant
There was an NK teacher in the tri state area, a young 20 year old girl was fired for ripping down posters. But perhaps more disturbing, her students asked her, can we daven or say tehlim, something extra for EY? She said no we don’t need to daven for them. Even according to NK, you shouldn’t daven for jews in a tzara?
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