New Torah approved club at YU

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  • #2132296
    ymribiat
    Participant

    YU in introducing a halachickly approved LGBTQ+ club with a הסכמה from HaRav Herschel Schechter שליט”א.

    #2132381
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    This is excellent news. People with these urges have an extremely difficult path ahead of them in life, and they do need support in order to stay frum.
    This club, under the guidance of the Roshei Yeshiva, can provide that help, and try to ensure that these boys stay shomer Torah u’mitzvos.

    #2132390
    Marxist
    Participant

    Source?

    #2132400
    Get-r-dun
    Participant

    Kedaas Moshe veyisrael!

    #2132404
    mentsch1
    Participant

    True
    But since the press release makes it sound like a kiruv club, I find it hard to fault them
    Besides
    Another plus, it seems to have irritated the LGBT crowd. That alone tells me it must not be what they are looking for
    I would like to think this is the roshei yeshiva trolling the LG’s

    #2132452
    ymribiat
    Participant

    @ Marxist YWN doesn’t allow links in the coffee room, but it’s national news.

    @ mentch I’m definitely curious whether YU is aiming for “conversion therapy” orencouraging celibacy (if so, If encourage all students to join).

    #2132473
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Ym, do you think high school kids whose mother’s milk is teenage television/movies and who have girlfriends in high school *suddenly* get an interest in something that their own world dismisses as prudish?

    Let’s be real. They don’t try to hide it. They walk with their sin partners holding hands in the street in Flatbush.

    #2132487
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Ym
    I am disturbed by the optics
    Even if they were going for that angle i don’t see the toeles
    It sounds like capitulation and endorsement

    #2132750
    akuperma
    Participant

    “hecksher”??? for a student club?

    What does the hecksher entail (what refreshments they serve? what they do on Shabbos? off campus “social” (sic) activities?)

    Would they give a hecksher to a club studying how to make money engaging in Ribis (buying and sell securities, including bonds, stocks on margin, leveraged loans, etc.)?

    #2132760
    yitz17
    Participant

    They did it because they know the courts will force them to acknowledge an LGBT club. Since their problem was that such a club is not compatible with the schools “torah values” this way they can claim that YU upholds its Torah values,” A yeshiva that maintains actual torah values will expel students that carry a flag identifying themselves as violating chayvie krisohs just as they would students who identify as pork eaters or sabbath violators.

    #2132801
    lakewhut
    Participant

    The idea is to help people who have urges but don’t actually violate chyvie krisos.

    #2132821
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    There’s no need for a “club.” If the intention is solely to support such people, they would appoint a group of therapists and/or rebbeim who specialize in understanding these struggles and let the students go to them. Actually, i think in light of the nisyonos we live in, every yeshiva should have one such designated person, for toeva YH and for normative YH.

    #2132828
    lakewhut
    Participant

    Maybe that’s part of the program.

    #2133067

    yitz17,
    Firstly ,FAlse .They likely will win if they would HOLD strong
    Second, So what ?? Even if?! Everything Cardinal standard is negotiable?
    How about club for child murder?What if that was being coered?

    #2133070

    Anyone can give themselves a L*****Q** letter when it has become the way to get ahead
    Among youth it is therefore far higher although still incessantly somehow they tell us it is genetic!

    lakewhat,
    Humans had to struggle with endless different things but choosing even identifying with them put that person as a world class machte’ei Harabim

    DaMoshe,
    So blithe?Which chiyuv missa do you have a yetzer for and are regularly oiver

    So How about clubs for other urges which DO exist?
    Rape?Racketeering?Adultery?

    #2133072

    “The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”

    get-r-dun’
    Someone has a hedonistic axe to grind . keep going

    #2133077

    This Week .Ironic
    cf. Tanchuma Re’eh
    During the days of Noach Not everyone was sinning Or Immoral personally ,
    There were people smugly tolerant, benigly hosted the perverts( with tragic issues and urges,for sure), couldn’t care what consensual sins others did – and for it they were destroyed also
    Noach did care,tried to protest somewhat and that’s why he was saved
    but less than enough and for that even he was castigated

    #2133078

    Typo legally coerced

    #2133081

    JewishPress 3/18/2020

    ..but Rav Herschel Schachter, rosh kollel at Yeshiva University, said that the forced closures of shuls and schools should be seen as a clear message from above that we are failing in our responsibilities as “G-d’s firstborn” to be role models to the nations of the world.

    “The world is full of atheism, avodah zarah, immorality, abortion, and murder, and the fundamental sheva mitzvos bnei Noach, the seven Noahide laws, aren’t being observed in society,” said Rav Schachter.

    Rav Schachter observed that we should all be thankful that G-d took an oath after the flood in the time of Noach never to destroy the entire world again. “The whole world is rebelling,” he noted. “If I were G-d, I would be very angry right now. We need to work harder and do our jobs better so that we can be an ohr lagoyim.”

    #2133092
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Time for Truth: I’m not sure why you ask. Yes, I have my own taivos just like everyone else, and I’m sure everyone here also transgresses things at times, sometimes even regularly.
    This particular issue, IMO, is one of the most difficult for a frum Jew. With other taivos, we either have alternatives (such as a taivah for treif food – there are delicious options which are kosher), or in time things will be allowed (if a teen has normal teenage urges, they know one day they will likely be married).
    When it comes to this, if someone wants to stay frum, what does that mean? It means being condemned to a life alone, without a partner. To never be able to have anything to remove the urge. It’s a terrible situation to be in, and they need support. That doesn’t even take into account the effects of society trying to convince the world that this is all normal, and attacking those who are opposed to this lifestyle.

    #2133149

    DaMoshe,
    According to two sources the Amalek we must defeat before the End Of Days are These
    There are more out there whose biological urge could only properly be satisfied throught Rape.
    cf.Thornhill,Palmer 2011
    So what would you recommend? Too bad on them!
    Yeshaya 56:3-5
    They Should marry Klal yisroel or their shtender
    Nothing novel.There were so many throughout previous generations
    On an individual level we could deal with them if they are willing to be control themselves (And yes despite present propaganda -this could readily be channeled)And Heaven forbid for them to officially be given the license join the Societal Subversion

    #2133153
    ymribiat
    Participant

    @ it’s time for truth

    Could you share something that you’ve given up that is equivalent?

    #2133237
    Get-r-dun
    Participant

    get-r-dun’
    Someone has a hedonistic axe to grind . keep going
    Re its time;
    That was called an attempt at humor. No need to be so uptight

    #2133238

    Decline to disclose and rude.The Short answer:Yes I have indeed

    More people have than you realize . If their issues were avant garde they would paraded.They themselves just take it as course of life

    #2133239

    There are many so-called Otthodox who really wish to teli HKB”H, we don’t need you or your Torah Times have changed and in todays PC world, the Laws of the Torah no longer apply

    If only we would shun these people and STOP BEING MICHANEFF them at every given opportunity
    cf. Ramban on Devarim 27:26One who shirks their obligation to uphold everyone’s Judaism is “Arur”
    The most attainable goal now is to alert and Wake Up Yidden seeking Emes.
    The greatest threat facing Jewry is not intermarriage or assimilation, but rather perversion of the Torah,
    (Mishnas Reb Aharon 1:2,3:6)

    #2133242

    Any sleight of hand cave in for this ,And the edifice of Judaism is a facade

    What in Judaism is chayav sekilla,Of 3 Chamuros for which one must sacrifice
    One of 7 mitvos of Noach,
    You’re allowed to kill the person before they do the act
    And is never ever suspended(Murder by comparison is suspended and permitted e.g for judicial officers and drafted soldiers)?
    Try to guess

    #2133285
    ymribiat
    Participant

    @ it’s time

    When you “decline to disclose” you are advancing a right to privacy. Which means that other peoples lives are none of your business.

    You are demanding real human beings live a half life of celibacy without the possibly of emotional intimacy. If Rav Shechter has a Torah perspective to offer, so much the better. But it isn’t rude to wonder how you made a הר into חוט השערה.

    #2133306
    Get-r-dun
    Participant

    Seeing that the world is at the point where homosexuality is not only considered accepted and normal we’re almost at the point that straight people have to apologize for being the way we are,
    The only purpose the club would serve would be to normalize that in the Torah world. Even if the intention is to do it using Torah values and guidance, it would normalize it too much. I’m pretty certain that if the Lakewood yeshiva was faced with that decision that they would not cave an iota

    #2133353
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Get-r-dun (should I call you Larry?), it depends on what you mean by acceptance. Do we except that there are homosexuals? Yes, we do. There is nothing wrong with being gay. What is wrong is acting on the urges to be with someone of the same gender.
    As I wrote before, we do need more acceptance. The people faced with this challenge need more love and acceptance than most others. They face an extremely difficult challenge in life. Looking down on them for how Hashem created them is 100% wrong. In fact, someone facing this challenge who stays true to Torah values should be applauded. That’s the purpose of the club. To accept the people for how they were created, and to support them in following the derech haTorah.

    #2133362
    ymribiat
    Participant

    @ Get
    “I’m pretty certain that if the Lakewood yeshiva was faced with that decision that they would not cave an iota”
    Objectively the most ridiculous statement ever out forward on YWN, and that’s saying alot.

    #2133388
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It is against science which says opposites attract likes repel.

    #2133390
    ujm
    Participant

    DaMoshe: Do you say the same for pedophiles who don’t act on their urges? Then why hasn’t Y.U. yet created the Y.U. Pedophilic Support Club to accept the people that were created as pedophiles?

    #2133399
    ymribiat
    Participant

    @ UJM

    What is your solution?

    #2133481
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Joseph, nobody is preaching acceptance for pedophiles. That’s the main difference.

    #2133503
    ujm
    Participant

    ymribriat: If you accept YU’s solution to the homosexual problem is to create a YU Homosexual Support Club, then by logical extension you must insist that YU similarly create a YU Pedophilic Support Club for the pedophile problem.

    DaMoshe: Your point is irrelevant. YU is claiming their university sponsored Homosexual Club is designed to help YU homosexuals overcome their homosexual taaivas. As such, by logical extension YU must similarly create a YU Pedophilic Club to help YU pedophiles overcome their pedophilic taaivas.

    #2133521
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Joseph, maybe you don’t understand how logic works.

    #2133526
    ujm
    Participant

    DaMoshe: Be so kind to explain to us why it is logical for YU to sponsor a homosexual club, whereas on the same token it is not logical for YU to sponsor a pedophilic club.

    #2133524
    ymribiat
    Participant

    @ ujm there are clever trolls, and then there are idiots who listen to more talk radio than is healthy.
    But if you’d like to start a separate threat and discuss the Torah’s views on adult men marrying very young girls, by all means run it past the mods.

    #2133532
    ujm
    Participant

    ymribriat: There already is a currently active thread discussing exactly that. Please read the next thread following this one, entitled “Is YU officially a modern-Orthodox institution?” for discussing the point you question.

    #2133595
    ymribiat
    Participant

    @ ujm
    “the point you question” absolutely no idea what you are talking about. General rule of thumb is that my questions contain question marks. Whatever additional “points” your feverish brain may have concocted dont interest me.

    #2133629
    Get-r-dun
    Participant

    Ymribiat
    Even if my statement was incorrect, which I don’t think it is, it’s a pretty strong statement saying it’s the most ridiculous comment ever on yeshiva world, Care to elaborate?
    DaMoshe; yes Larry is fine!

    #2133658
    ymribiat
    Participant

    @ get
    It contains too many faulty assumptions about both institutions.

    #2133675
    Get-r-dun
    Participant

    Ym
    I agree that I made assumptions, which is how I started my statement that I’m pretty certain, of course I could be wrong.
    My main point was contrast, of course some people are more suitable for the ideals of Lakewood, and some people need the YU, derech. And I believe in many cases Lakewood has pushed too far to the right, on the contrast yu. is pushing too far to the left. And I certainly agree that gay people need help and support. I was expressing my concern that making an official club would mainstream it too much.

    #2133704

    “right to privacy. Which means that other peoples lives are none of your ”
    Trash. They’re drilling a hole as per Judaism To sink the ship for all of us
    So yes it is certainly is.

    “demanding real human beings live a half life of celibacy without the possibly of emotional intimacy.” There were many who managed to get that quite fine without inappropriate relationships . And there now who many even married people who endure and survive without it. And surmount as they’re expected to
    Fortunate are they.
    Getting married And raising a family remain the biggest waste of life. Obviously most people feel the need to.There are so many more more important things to be accomplished for those who find it unnecessary
    UnPC heresy

    #2133705

    “right to privacy. Which means that other peoples lives are none of your ”
    Trash. They’re drilling a hole as per Judaism To sink the ship for all of us
    So yes it is certainly is.

    “demanding real human beings live a half life of celibacy without the possibly of emotional intimacy.” There were many who managed to get that quite fine without inappropriate relationships . And there now who many even married people who endure and survive without it. And surmount as they’re expected to
    Fortunate are they.
    Getting married And raising a family remain the biggest waste of life. Obviously most people feel the need to.There are so many more more important things to be accomplished for those who find it unnecessary
    UnPC heresy
    A Gadol said some decades ago
    “The greste k’fira in heintige tzeitin, is k’fira in bechira ”

    #2133716

    “that there are homosexuals? Yes, we do. There is nothing wrong with being gay. What is wrong is ”
    False . Wrong.
    Anyone who hangs out with criminals,
    call himself a criminal,supports criminals,
    and then claims he’s innocent
    while obviously there is nothing wrong with lacking an attraction to the opposite gender
    it is evil manifested to be to identifying any way possible with that term, the concept behind it ,
    and what it conveys

    #2133764
    ymribiat
    Participant

    @ It’s time
    So then the entire “frum wing” of Otisville is a vile חילול השם. Let toss the lot into the gas chamber, along with the sanctimonious criminal from Postville.
    Seriously, you need someone to supervise your screen time. Too much Fox News and Daily Wire, not enough independent thought or experience. I get it, you don’t like gays. Facts don’t care about your feelings.

    #2133775
    ujm
    Participant

    ymribriat: How about we throw you into the gas chamber, rather than your vile suggestion of throwing the Jews you hate into the gas chamber, that you’ve identified in your last comment. Of course anyone who committed a crime committed a chilul Hashem (though just because someone was convicted by a corrupt secular court system and jailed in no way leave a presumption of guilt). But such a chilul Hashem does not reduce one iota the far greater chilul Hashem of anyone identifying themselves as a homosexual. As IITFT correctly pointed out, just because someone has taaivas (he doesn’t act upon) for the same gender, does not make them a homosexual, any more than someone who has taaivas for married women (that he doesn’t act upon), it does not make him an adulterer. The choice of self-identifying, especially in public, as a homosexual, is a truly vile chilul Hashem.

    Furthermore, your go-to ad hominem of declaring anyone with the common sense of disagreeing with your wrongful “opinions” as having consumed too much talk radio or too little thought, is burnt out already with your absurd reasonings and lack of Torah values.

    #2133776
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Ym, so when the goyim decide homosexuality is fine, you just follow suit, unthinking, conforming, telling yourself that gedolim change based on the world around them.

    Yayn ra’al masachti, kemaat she’avadti. no values, no definitions of morality except not directly hurting others .. Until that too, will be sacrificed in matters such as abortion and assisted suicide.

    What shlaimus hadaas, daas Torah, have you acquired that will accompany you in olam haba? How have you made your mind in sync with the thoughts of Hashem? Have you ever tried to conceive such a goal?

    Enjoy your new York times, your blissful ignorance of chovas haadam beolamo. Because you’re thinking like someone whose place is this world, and this world alone.

    Not just you, I’m directing this to everyone who thinks it’s ok to change our values.

    #2133777
    maskildoresh
    Participant

    Ymr
    To go from criticism to gas chambers – wow.

    I think What some of the previous posters are trying to say, albeit unclearly, is that we can recognize and have compassion for indivuals who have powerful urges to commit various wrongdoings. But we should not buy in to the concept that an individual should by defined by those urges. That it’s his or her IDENTITY. From a Torah perspective , that’s untrue. A yid views these urges as a Yetzer Hora. Compassion and helping in overcoming urges is different than creating a framework for people who identify themselves as gay. There are all sorts of negative outcomes that flow from buying into this concept , as YU is.

    YU is trying to figure out how to technically live with the letter of the law of Halacha, all the while buying in to completely non Jewish perspective and attitude. The synthesis results in apologetics and compromise. Unfortunately it’s not surprising …

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