October 30, 2022 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #2133792ymribiatParticipant
Homosexuality isnt the only עבירה described as a תועבה. So is dishonesty in financial matters. How can you justify “frum” wing in a prison for people who in many cases were caught leaching off of their own communities and fought tooth and nail to avoid any consequences, but not a club on a college campu endorsed by ראשי ישיבות, for people who are literally trying to understand and practice what the Torah asks of them?
YU has already stated that they wont accept a club affiliation with national groups. The thread is about the club that exists, and was endorsed by Rav Shechter. But you keep dodging the question: what would you differently?
But I’ll make the question even simpler. Since you are the greater תלמוד חכם. Find a single מקור that homosexuality is “worse” than any other תועבה.October 30, 2022 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #2133809
Homosexual activity is a capital offense. You get stoned to death for it.
That’s quite a difference than stealing apples from your grocer when you didn’t pay your balance.
Number Two: The guy who committed financial crimes knows its wrong. He doesn’t march in the Embezzlers Pride Parade down Fifth Avenue. He doesn’t write articles in the Y.U. Commentator defending theft like the homosexuals who write in that rag defending their anti-Torah deviancies.
Number Three: The guys who were convicted of financial crimes and were thrown in jail by the Goyim may be very and completely innocent.October 30, 2022 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #2133814
ymribiat, a great point. Maybe there should be a joint Toeva Anonymous club, a system endorsed by R Twersky Z’L, with both financial and sexual abusers eligible to attend. They can ponder together how these issues came together.October 31, 2022 12:50 am at 12:50 am #2133844AviraDeArahParticipant
No one’s dodging the question here besides those who aren’t answering ujm ‘s question about a club for people who are pedophiles, and my question about why our values change when goyim decide one thing is right, wrong, or whatever else.
The solution is obvious. Either have a group of rebbeim and therapists who are trained in dealing with these issues for students to turn to who will not tolerate their sinning saying that they’re anusim, etc…, Or you can have a club like the coffee room where there’s zero chance of meeting someone, it’s moderated to prevent messages which can be identifying. The trouble with this is that it still normalizes it to a degree.
My rosh yeshiva explains the relationship between a nazir and sotah as follows: the meforshim ask, why would a man who sees a woman being punished as a sotah have to become a nazir? He needs the least shmirah of anyone! He just saw with his own eyes, the meting out of divine punishment, a complete neis which ahows the results of sin.
My rosh yeshiva answered that some aveiros are ao beyond the pale, like niuf (and kal vechomer homosexuality) that a person lives a life without even realizing that people do this sin. When he sees her punishment, it is now seen by him no longer as an abstract thing that he learns about in Yeshiva, but that “people do this”….kind of like how amalek cooled off klal yisroel; even though they got burned, the other nations saw that it was possible to engage in war with yisroel.
With this in mind, seeing that there are people in yeshiva who sin with men would only make it harder in practice, no matter how validating and comfortable it would make the sufferer to know that there are others who are in his position..
But if the school made such an anonymous group, i wouldn’t say it’s the worst thing, especially for the fabric -on-the-head community whi watches movies and sees all sorts of toevos everyday anyway.October 31, 2022 8:20 am at 8:20 am #2133854LostsparkParticipant
Ymribiat, what a vile comment calling for yidden to be gassed, I wouldn’t call for the same fate for these idiot toiveh evangelicals. You should be ashamed of the hateful person you have become.October 31, 2022 8:23 am at 8:23 am #2133865
Joseph, you claim that “just because someone has taaivas (he doesn’t act upon) for the same gender, does not make them a homosexual, any more than someone who has taaivas for married women (that he doesn’t act upon), it does not make him an adulterer.” Actually, you’re wrong. The definition of a homosexual is someone who is attracted to the same gender. It doesn’t matter whether you act on the attraction or not. An adulterer is only someone who has relations with a married person, other than your own spouse.
There is nothing wrong with admitting that you have this attraction, and need help. Time for Truth, nobody suggested that these people are hanging out with criminals. Even if they are, this club is there to help them. Imagine someone who is part of a gang. He wants to get out of it, so he goes for help. Yes, he’s still a gang member, and still hangs out with the rest of them. Does that mean he doesn’t deserve help leaving them? The purpose of this club is to help them lead a frum lifestyle.
Aveirah, I actually did answer Joseph’s question about a pedophile club. There isn’t a need for it. Joseph differentiated between monetary crimes and homosexuality. He wrote “The guy who committed financial crimes knows its wrong. He doesn’t march in the Embezzlers Pride Parade down Fifth Avenue. He doesn’t write articles in the Y.U. Commentator defending theft like the homosexuals who write in that rag defending their anti-Torah deviancies.”
Yet when I made the same point about pedophiles, he argued it with me. That’s because financial crimes fit his narrative, but pedophiles don’t. He is trying to play it both ways, because that’s Joseph – logic doesn’t matter to him, he is the ultimate troll.October 31, 2022 11:12 am at 11:12 am #2133908
DaMoshe: Pedophilia is a sexual orientation just as homosexuality is. Do you call people who have a taaivas for children a pedophile even if they never in their life touched a child?
Yes or No, DaMoshe?
(As an aside, there are more men of the pedophilic orientation than their are men with the homosexual orientation.)October 31, 2022 11:12 am at 11:12 am #2133916
DaMoshe: It is a purely political decision of the perverts to describe men who never had any relations with any other man as a homosexual. And it is a relatively new political decision; until about the 1970s such men were never called or considered to be homosexual. They changed the terminology for political purposes to legitimize their deviancies in the eyes of the public.
Having an attraction for married women (the Gemora talks about this, by the way, that some men are especially attracted to married women) is no different than having an attraction for other men. Or of men attracted to children. If they do not act upon those deviant urges and taaivas, they are normal people with no special or different sexual description.
And, absolutely, if a man has specific taaivas for either children, men or for married women, he definitely should seek help.October 31, 2022 12:03 pm at 12:03 pm #2133940AviraDeArahParticipant
ujm, having an attraction to married women is very different than having one towards men – one is a mayim ganuvim yimtaku variant of a normal, healthy desire, and the other is, rav moshe says, a desire to be lehachis, to flout the will of Hashem in its very essence.November 2, 2022 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #2134811
Avira, as far as the aveira is concerned, I would think that Eishes Ish and mishkav zochor are on the same level.November 2, 2022 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #2134924
Avira, a good question whether such a club should be guided by experienced professionals. now, tell me how do places that do not have clubs deal with these issues? Do we have professionals to deal with various issues that arise?November 3, 2022 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #2135156135847Participant
To maskildoresh. WELL SAID, Thank You,
When and What the goyim decide is fine? How about “V’atem Tiyu Li Mamleches Koihanim V’go Kodosh”? Yes, we are proudly different! and how beautiful it is, Learning and Davening with Hashkufu Tehora gives us Simchas which is something that you can’t describe to someone that is not interested in it, but WE are really proud and happy with it, B”H we are the ones who will be zoiche to go with Melech Mashiach Bekurov,
Directing to everyone who thinks it’s ok to change our values.November 3, 2022 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #2135186
I don’t think anyone here thinks it’s ok to change our values. I think I am the one who is defending the club the most, and I think it’s specifically because it holds true to our values!
This club is about NOT making being gay your identity. It’s about supporting these individuals so they could stay as frum Jews, and specifically NOT make their orientation the focal point of their lives.
Joseph, troll that he is, is trying to equate this club with a club for pedophiles. He has never come across as more ignorant. Nobody is telling pedophiles to be proud of who they are, and trying to offer them support to proudly live that life openly. With gays, that is going on. We need to help these individuals so that they can stay true to the Torah, and follow what Hashem asks of us.
And once more: there is nothing wrong with being gay. There is something wrong with acting on the urges. If a Jew is gay, and never gives in to the urge, and lives a full life of celibacy, would you say there’s something wrong there? He is succeeding in the challenge Hashem has given him! That’s what this club is trying to do. Help them to succeed.November 3, 2022 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #2135191
DaMoshe- I would have been inclined to agree with your view but I hear differently from students there. Here is a tiny blurb, the rest is worse. I wish you to be right but I’m not convinced
My JSS Hebrew teacher was the first professor I had at YU who addressed a class of male YU students with, “In your future, when you have a wife or a husband, I honestly don’t care….” That comment uplifted me with an incredible amount of elation. I experienced an incredibly euphoric moment when I heard a YU professor not assume that we were all the same. Better yet, we were allowed to be different.November 3, 2022 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #2135197Yserbius123Participant
@DaMoshe Unfortunately, you are wrong. There absolutely are people who parade around their financial crimes and are praised for it. I can think of numerous examples (all of which are Lashon Hora) and I’m sure you know of plenty too.November 3, 2022 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #2135207
Syag, your blurb only proves the need for the club. It will counter experiences like those, and show them that there is a problem actually having a relationship with someone of the same gender.
Yserbius, I don’t understand your point. What does that have to do with this club?November 3, 2022 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #2135222
DaMoshe: Mishkav zochor and Eishes Ish are worse that pedophilia. And, to repeat, if a man has taaivas for children that he never acts upon, he is not a pedophile. If a man has taaivas for men that he never acts upon, he is not a homosexual.November 4, 2022 8:02 am at 8:02 am #2135282
Joseph, we don’t know which one is worse. They’re definitely all wrong.
You also just want to argue about definitions. Look it up in a dictionary. Google pointed me to the Oxford dictionary, and here are the definitions:
Pedophile – a person who is sexually attracted to children.
Homosexual – a person who is sexually attracted to people of their own sex.
It says nothing about acting on the attraction, just that the attraction exists. The club is using this definition.November 4, 2022 9:44 am at 9:44 am #2135354
DaMoshe- you either missed the point or you ignored it. He didn’t say being gay, he said having a husband. With all it’s forbidden implications. When the institution is accepting of this, it’s support group won’t be to discourage it.November 4, 2022 12:25 pm at 12:25 pm #2135396
Syag, I got the point. The teacher is not involved with the club. One teacher saying something doesn’t mean the institution is accepting. The debate here was specifically about the club, and whether it’s a good thing or not. My opinion is that it is good, and having a teacher like that only emphasizes this. Opinions like this teacher has need to be combated. That’s what this club will do.November 4, 2022 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #2135447
First of all, how do you know the teacher is not involved in the club? And there was a lot more to that article I just wanted to present the most concrete clipping. There is an atmosphere of acceptance of a gay life there, and they speak openly about their finally feeling like they can be themselves openly as opposed to the “oppressive, anti gay restrictions” of their high schools and yeshivas (read – requesting halachik adherence). I wish you were right. I don’t know if you have inside information that things are as you say or if it is just a pipe dream but I wish it was so.November 4, 2022 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #2135469
At the end of the day, I trust R’ Schachter to make sure the club is run properly. He is approving it, so I assume he will be on top of things. Having teachers who say things like you mentioned is terrible, and it doesn’t belong in the school. I hope they act accordingly.
Let’s hope that the club has the effect that R’ Schachter intends for it, and that it helps people in this tough situation stay frum!November 4, 2022 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #2135476
syag > My JSS Hebrew teacher was the first professor I had at YU who addressed a class of male YU students with, ….
Syag > There is an atmosphere of acceptance
I think you misunderstand the first quote (I tracked down the original article so that others don’t have to). He is saying that this particular teacher was the _first_ one who was “accepting”, all the other ones were not, as it says just 3 line above your quote, so things are not as bad as you are afraid of (or at least were 5 years ago):
>> It’s hard to feel welcomed into a community that doesn’t want you. There needs to be a change in YU so that students can feel that they are welcome and that the community wants them to be a part of it.November 4, 2022 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #2135503
DaMoshe: “we don’t know which one is worse.”
You might not know which is worse. But we definitely know which is worse. Something that carries the death penalty is certainly worse than something that doesn’t carry the death penalty.
And as previously pointed out, a person who never engaged in homosexual conduct even if he had a taaiva to, has historically never been called or considered to be a homosexual. The contemporary reversal of this nomenclature only in the last few decades was a direct result of pressure by the homosexual lobby.
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