9-9-9-9 Tefillos

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  • #611245

    abcd2
    Participant

    Hashem always accepts Tefillos. However there are times that are known to be very auspicious. Tomorrow there is a special time of Rachamim and Ratzon. Maybe we can get Sefer Tehillim covered.The times are 1:44pm-1:53pm in Eretz Yisrael

    and 6:44am-6:53am on the eastcoast

    I will do Aleph-Hey

    #1196929

    WIY
    Member

    Mekor?

    #1196930

    Lol, when I saw this thread I thought it was going to be about tefillos for a woman who’s about to give birth!

    #1196931

    streekgeek
    Participant

    As quoted on Kupat Ha’ir’s website:

    The whole calculation is there as well if you’re interested.

    #1196932

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    As quoted on Kupat Ha’ir’s website:

    Mestama Chukas HaGoyim.

    Besides, IIRC we have no idea when Yovel is anyway.

    #1196933

    streekgeek
    Participant

    GAW – I feel bad asking, but what’s Mestama? I hear it so much but I still have no idea what it means. Excuse my ignorance.

    And I agree about Yovel, I’m not giving my approval about this whole thing, just a source that I have come across for those interested.

    JF02 – LOL 🙂

    #1196934

    WIY
    Member

    gavra

    But we know when shemittah is?

    #1196935

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    The ninth month counting from what?

    #1196936

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    SG: Mestama – Probably

    WIY: Mestama (IIRC). Ayin Bava Basra 28B on the bottom (IIRC) where Rashi & Tos. deal with a set Shmittah. Assuming the timeline is right (granted, a large assumption) and that Yovel was not Noheg in Bayis Shaini, it’s a straight calculation. Others here would probably know more than I do about the Cheshbonos.

    #1196937

    Sam2
    Participant

    WIY: It’s a Machlokes Rishonim when Shmittah is. The Rambam has a calculation but disregards it in lieu of a tradition that the Geonim had.

    We know when Shemittah was, in theory, because we know when B’nei Yisrael entered Eretz Yisrael. However, there is a Machlokes Tannaim whether Yovel counts as the first year of the next Shemittah cycle or not. To know when Shemittah is we would have to know that the Beis Din HaGadol never Paskened the way that we don’t Pasken now (or that they corrected it post facto if they ever did). That’s just one of the issues with knowing when Shemitah is. We assume we know, but we are not completely sure.

    #1196938

    abcd2
    Participant

    If it is true that an especially auspicious time is tomorrow morning and my next chance is in 50 years I am willing to take nine minutes of time that there might be something to it and say some Tehillim and Daven for myself and others. B)Davening at the same time with more emotion then usual as many others will be, will definetly have an effect in Shamayim,as Rachamim and Bracha is greater when Davened united with others.

    C)I made sure to preface my post with the FACT that Hashem ALWAYS listens to our Tefillos. Worse comes to worse I poured my heart out a little to the one above

    May Hashem grant whatever we need

    #1196939

    streekgeek
    Participant

    GAW – Aha! Thanks… You learn something new every day

    #1196940

    What tefillos are good for the time? what specific tefilos for a refuah?

    #1196941

    the-art-of-moi
    Participant

    There was a pamphlet in the Hamodia last week. That’s where I saw it. Check it out it sounds cool!

    #1196942

    truthsharer
    Member

    Can you spot the avodah zorah in this paragraph:

    (I wonder if it was a Freudian slip.)

    #1196943

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    I had no idea till someone told me in school and we davened mincha early.

    #1196945

    truthsharer
    Member

    Didn’t they do this a few years ago?

    Abcd, using your logic you should also go to a church and pray. What can it hurt?

    #1196946

    Sam2
    Participant

    Can I ask a stupid question? Based on how I recall we Pasken, it’s not possible for this to be the 9th year of the Yovel cycle. It’s the 6th year of Shmitah. I thought we Pasken that Yovel doesn’t count as the first year of a Shmitah cycle, which would make this impossible. Am I wrong?

    #1196947

    Sam2
    Participant

    Wait. It doesn’t matter how we Pasken. Either way, Yovel has to follow Shemittah. So year nine of Yovel has to be either two years after a Shemitah (if Yovel counts as year 1) or 3 years after (if it doesn’t count). Either way, this year can’t be year 9. So either Kupat Ha’ir knows better than the Mesorah we have from the Geonim, or they were secretly Machmir for Shemitah 2 years ago with their own Mesorah from the Geonim. Or they’re just making stuff up.

    I’m voting the latter.

    #1196948

    MDG
    Participant

    Sam2,

    (sarcasm on) Stop being so smart. It’s getting hard for people to make hoaxes for money. (sarcasm off)

    I also remember that there is a machloket whether Yovel is concurrent with the 7th Shemita or the year after it (4th perek of Gittin). Either way, this is not the 9th year from a Yovel. It’s the 13th.

    This is related to Applewhite theorem which states:

    (a) People are gullible and will believe anything, even claims that demand painful or suicidal observances;

    (b) as long as the claim cannot be checked.

    #1196949

    Sam2
    Participant

    Oh, and some quick Googling shows that Kupat Ha’ir ran identical campaigns on 9 Kislev in both 2009 and 2011. So this “once in 50 years opportunity” seems to really be every other year. Oh, and the 2009 Kupat Ha’ir ad quoted R’ Chaim Kanievsky as saying that he’s never heard of this and that T’fillah always works, anytime.

    #1196950

    WIY
    Member

    Sam

    Thanks for crushing any neemanus that organization had left.

    #1196951

    apushatayid
    Participant

    In all fairness to Kupat Hair, on their own website they claim this is the 1st time they are promoting the 9th year portion of the “9s segula”. Until now it was just the 9th month, day etc… this year based on additional work they calculated is the 9th year of the yovel.

    #1196952

    Sam2
    Participant

    apushatayid: That’s not being fair to them. That’s just pointing out that they are lying. The campaign 4 years ago claimed to be the 9th year (and it is according to our count-if you assume Yovel still exists, that is). This year is the 9th year according to the Rambam, who we don’t accept (and who didn’t accept his own calculation in lieu of the Mesorah that the Geonim had). I have no idea what they used 2 years ago to claim it was the 9th year. I’d look into it, but I’m bored with this topic already.

    #1196953

    WIY
    Member

    I really dislike this organization. They are serious trolls.

    #1196954

    Sam2
    Participant

    WIY: From what I have heard, at least, they do put the money to very good use, don’t they? They really do help feed a ton of poor families. They just use mass superstition and scare tactics to get the money, which is quite underhanded.

    #1196955

    WIY
    Member

    Sam2

    The ends don’t justify the means. I know desperate people who gave more than they can afford because they were gullible and bought into the hype. They did a lot of damage in many ways.

    #1196956

    iBump 2.0
    Participant

    may i just quickly point out that the :50- :53 minutes are not acourding to all opinions. if you read the hebrew on bottom it shows that one shita holds until :50. so its only six minutes not 9. just thought id point that out

    🙂 Bump 🙂

    #1196957

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Even apushatayid like me can guarantee that no matter what shitta you follow to calculate your zmanim all are in agreement that you can never go wrong giving tzedaka, no matter which 9 minute segment of the day it is.

    #1196958

    the-art-of-moi
    Participant

    That is so sick. No bracha comes from lying. Omigod, I can’t believe that aJewish organization would lie like that. SICK!

    #1196959

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Sam2: I saw the leaflet and I was bored so I looked everything up. The sefer they quote is by a student of the Ari who no one I asked (including two students of kabbala) ever heard of. Be that as it may, I was shocked that they were quoting a sefer that actually existed. Even more shockingly, the RaMBaM they quoted was indeed where they say it is and it does work out according to RaMBaM. Since the last segula of theirs I bothered to check out, I had despaired of them knowing how to read Hebrew. Though they stayed true to form in their boasts about how after years of looking they found some fine print in the Rambam.

    #1196960

    squeak
    Participant

    Herman Cain’s Guide to Tefilla. Like gavra said.

    #1196961

    Leyzer
    Participant

    The real tragedy of the whole Kupat Hair campaigns is that the people running the campaign clearly feel that Mitzvas Tzedokah / the worthiness of their organisation, is not enough of a draw to make people donate to them, that they have to resort to these manipulative, shallow promises/’shticks’ instead.

    AFAI concerned, they have a lot to answer for how they have globally twisted the performance of Tzedokah in our generation into as Shelo Lishmoh as possible.

    #1196962

    apushatayid
    Participant

    If they would run a campaign asking people to keep the taryag segulos, there would be many more shomrei mitzvos. A part of me says that this is really all part and parcel of reaching out to the “me generation”. No longer do people give to worthy causes, now they put money into a chineese auction in the hopes of winning a prize, the flashier the prizes the better the organization does. They are just tapping into the whats in it for me mentality, instead of dangling a new dining room set or trip to e’y in front of potential donors, they dangle a segula.

    #1196963

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator
    #1196964

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Layzer, they’re the problem!? Just read the negative comments here and elsewhere about Meshulachim, and all the wisecracks that Avaryanim managed to throw at an Ani. The fact that they have to invest so much to run such a campaign in order to get some Tzeddaka shows that a typed up sign in your Shul would not get you to donate.

    In the ideal setting there would be no dinners, chinese auctions, colorful brochures, painted trucks and nagging Gabbaim. All we need is a note of what this organisation does and we’ll be knocking on their doors. Collectors shouldn’t need to go around the Shul. There should be a nice table set up for these Me’asim and everyone will come over and give Tzeddaka while smiling and nodding a thank you.

    In this area there is a real Olam Hafuch. Those who spend every extra minute trying to make more money denigrate those trying to keep a Yeshiva afloat or sustain their family as money hungry.

    #1196965

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Itche, the Arizal spoke highly of it but it is not from his Talmid. It’s from an early Rishon or perhaps a Gaon.

    #1196966

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Highly of what, bris menucha? Read the shaar blatt of the book, it says student of the arizal etc. etc. avraham ben yitzchak of Grenada. Obviously calling someone of that period “of Grenada” is strange so any other sources placing him before the expulsion. (Though if he was “of Grenada” he was clearly not a Gaon in the historical sense.)

    #1196967

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Look in Shem Hagedolim. I think it is sometimes attributed to Rav Chamai Gaon, but I recall that historians have issues with that.

    I really don’t think it said about him, Talmid Ha’ari.

    #1196968

    Leyzer
    Participant

    HaLeiVi

    The difference between a chinese auction and Kupat hair is that the CA gives you a chance to win a prize whereas KH PROMISES/GUARANTEES a prize (i.e. yeshuah).

    Another difference: KH TAKES ADVANTAGE of people who are vulnerable, who need Yeshuos. CA’s don’t take advantage of anyone.

    One more: CA’s have fixed prices per draw. No-one is encouraged to pay up life fortunes to enter.

    #1196969

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Desperate people do stupid things. It is what prompted several Rabbonim in the Flatbush community to take out advertisments in local papers telling people to be wary of those advertising segulos and yeshuos, especially when done for a fee.

    #1196970

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    3 years later and we have another 9-9-9-9 segula. Now kupat Hair is saying it is the 9th year of Birkas Hachama cycle…

    #1196971

    Meno
    Participant

    Do any Gedolim actually endorse this stuff? How do they get away with it?

    #1196972

    all just pure corruption to get your gelt.

    Hashem listens to your tefillos 24-7 WHEN THEY COME FROM YOUR HEART with truth & sincerity & not just babbled flying through davening without knowing what the words even mean.

    Hashem listens even more on special occasions like yom kippur & other dates that have zechusim for certain types of tefillos like tu b’av for shidduchim tefillos etc…

    BUT THIS 9999 is just pure corruption

    #1196973

    catch yourself
    Participant

    abcd2 – “Worse comes to worse (sic) I poured my heart out a little to the one above”

    The problem is that this is not true. You would not have “poured your heart out,” appealing to the boundless love and mercy of Hashem.

    What you would have done is attempted to manipulate Him by means of some “spiritual loophole.”

    Quite aside from the disingenuous nature of the campaign, relying on such “segulos” is in the spirit of Avoda Zara (and, in fact, is labeled as such by some Gedolei Acharonim).

    Hashem’s love is not so petty that He would grant our requests only when presented from a certain place, at a certain time, or when accompanied by a libation of Chai Rotel. Do not put any stock in anyone who would convince you otherwise.

    ???? ??? ??? ??????, He is near to ALL who call Him.

    ?? ????? ???? ?????? ?-??? ????? ?????, Davening from one set place is the truest acknowledgment of His omnipotence, and is rewarded with His help (see Maharsha on this Gemara).

    In contrast, travelling to Daven in particularly auspicious places belies the misconception that Hashem’s Hand can be “forced”, ?? ?????, putting Avodas Hashem on no higher a level than pagan worship. The same applies to all such segulos.

    #1196974

    The little I know
    Participant

    catch yourself:

    Catch yourself. I am among those who shudder when I view the use of segulos as a marketing tool. That is certainly not the intent of a segulah. We are certainly told plenty about how HKB”H is available, hears our tefilos, and even invites us to speak to him three times a day. Yet, there are many, many times we find that tefilos can get an extra push.

    Why? Because there are such things as ???????, generally ?????? who “ride interference”. They are metaphorically the servants of the King who receive the tefilos and deliver them to the King Himself. One way to image this is to picture an ordinary person seeking to ask the King for something, who is turned away by these bodyguards because his behavior is seen as not befitting of someone who wants something from the King. “He is asking for ?????? But he is in violation of these mitzvos!”

    There are various things that assist us in overcoming this resistance, and many of these are stated clearly in Shas, Shulchan Aruch, and numerous seforim from the early Gedolei Hador to the contemporary. Giving tzedokoh before davening, engaging in preparation before tefilo, the inclusion of baalei aveiroh in the minyan, davening in certain places (mekomos hakedoshim, kivrei tzaddikim,) etc. There are times when the receptivity to our tefilos is more certain, including Yomim Noraim, especially at Ne’ilah, during the process of several mitzvos such as Ner Chanukah and ner Shabbos, and when placed in situations in which we are able to overcome strong influences (example – when embarrassed by someone and not responding).

    To challenge segulos, particularly those that come from reliable sources, is blasphemous. If the seguloh is to daven at a particular time, it does not mean to postpone tefiloh until then, or to ignore other responsibilities then. The Beis Yisroel – Gerrer Rebbe ZT”L missed Ne’ilah on Yom Kippur because he was attending to someone who was staying out of shul in defiance of the special day. The problem is not segulos. The problem is that they have been reformed into a marketable commodity. the organizations cast themselves as the owners of yeshuos, and that you can only be zocheh to be granted a yeshuah if you give them your money. That extreme is no more acceptable to me than the trashing of all segulos. And that is the problem with the 9-9-9-9 stuff.

    #1196975

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    Not to mention the problem with mass-marketing segulos. Often, a Rebbe or Rav gave someone a segula to do, not because the action had some “magical” power, but as a physical vehicle to transmit the Rebbe’s brocha, or an act of hishtadlus that would merit the brocha. But there would be no inherent value in the action itself without the accompanying brocha given, and no point for masses to go out and do that specific segula.

    #1196976

    catch yourself
    Participant

    TLIK – I am fully aware that many Segulos are mentioned by Gedolei Hadoros, including some that are in fact brought in the Gemara.

    I do not profess to understand how these Segulos work. I do know that this question is discussed by the Meiri, who consistently takes a very rationalist approach. He explains, for example, that the Simanim on Rosh Hashana are meant for us to focus on what it is that we need, and what it is we need to do in order to merit that Hashem will provide us with our needs.

    A similar approach can easily explain most, if not all Segulos (including all of your examples).

    I do not deny, ?? ?????, the Kabbalastic side of these things, but I have a hard time believing that any of the authors who mentioned these Segulos, from Chazal on down to the present day, would sanction the way they have been hijacked.

    Segulos, which were intended to buttress Avodas Hashem, have replaced it.

    The Maharsha, as well, was fully cognizant of these Segulos when he commented on the Gemara in Berachos which I mentioned in my previous post. He says there that ???? ???? ?????? is intended specifically to contrast with such Segulos as ????? ?????? ?????.

    The Iyun Yaakov (commentary to Ein Yaakov, written by the author of Chok Yaakov and Shvus Yaakov) states that ???? ???? ?????? is in contrast to ???? who went from place to place in an attempt to subvert the true ???? ???.

    The writings of Rav Shamshon Refael Hirsch are replete with the idea that any means of trying to influence Hashem’s conduct of the world which is not based on the concept of ?? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? is, at the very least, in the spirit of Avoda Zara.

    This is by no means a comprehensive, or even a representative, list of the Gedolei Hadoros who share this opinion. I would be surprised if it was not universally accepted.

    #1196977

    catch yourself
    Participant

    I wanted to add the following to my previous post, but I was too late:

    I doubt that a Segula is effective at all when it is used as a snake oil substitute for Avodas Hashem, much like Tefila is impotent when it is not true Avoda Shebaleiv.

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