September 22, 2021 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #2009232
Israel Cohen (@ Israelcohen911) Tweeted:
Just hallucinatory! Will anyone pay a price for the incitement and shaming against the Uman returnees? Will anyone take responsibility and apologize? Obviously not, because they are traditionalists and ultra-Orthodox. Perhaps one should learn not to take any publication unequivocally and know how to question even when the authorities leak data that after a period turns out to be fake news.
[Einav Kerner @einavkerner · Sep 19 2021:
First publication: 150 Oman passengers (out of 200) summoned for questioning for forgery of fraud and spread of disease, their investigation has been canceled! The reason: their test in Ukraine came out negative, and the test at Ben Gurion Airport also came out negative. In the first response, the first post on the subject, which came out two weeks ago.]
The invitation for the interrogation of 150 Uman passengers was canceled. Smutrich: “Shame on you Bennett and Nitzan Horowitz”
The passengers were summoned for questioning on suspicion of forging an inspection, but it turned out that the inspection in Ukraine turned out to be negative, as was the inspection at Ben Gurion Airport.
Channel 7, Thirteenth of Tishrei 5782 – 19.09.21September 23, 2021 1:22 am at 1:22 am #2009434
A friend of mine who did the Uman hajj said that the Ukrainian officials weren’t even bothering with most tests, just sticking a clean swab into the testing kit.September 23, 2021 1:23 am at 1:23 am #2009438ujmParticipant
Zionists never apologize for their multitude of crimes against the Jewish people over the last 100 years.September 23, 2021 8:26 am at 8:26 am #2009451
Yserbius; would you refer to aliyah leregel in such a pejorative as well? Chazal discuss both davening by kevarim and pilgrimage to one’s rebbe; I am not anywhere near breslov, but I find that offensive.September 23, 2021 1:00 pm at 1:00 pm #2009544
Dear Yserbius123, I wouldn’t use the h. Word.
BTW, it’s still worth mentioning that the chief anti Haredi hatred is Haaretz hate site. Including June/2021 “Der Sturmer” style cartoon by Amos Biderman. Not to mention that the covid-rise at the time was among secular, specifically.September 23, 2021 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #2009729
@AvirahDeArah I get that going to Ukraine is important for a lot of people. But chas v’shalom to compare it to a mitzvah d’Oraysoh like being Oleh Regel (l’havdil)?September 23, 2021 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #2009736
@Shalom-al-Israel Far vos nisht? It’s a silly joke about the lengths and importance people put on to going to Ukraine for Yamim Nora’im. Remember last year when a group was arrested trying to cross the border like Mexicans into the US and had to spend Rosh HaShanna in prison? I find it more offensive to compare it to a mitzvah!September 23, 2021 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #2009739ujmParticipant
Why would it be “chas v’shalom”? There’s nothing wrong likening one mitzvah to another mitzvah.September 24, 2021 1:28 am at 1:28 am #2009755
@ujm The Ukraine Rosh Hashono thing is important for some people to feel a certain d’veykus to Hashem that cannot be accomplished anywhere else. It’s only a heichi timtza for a mitzvah for some people.
I would say it’s like comparing reading a history book to learning Gemara. It’s not bitul to read and understand history, but there’s no specific mitzvah and it’s certainly incomparable to Talmud Torah.September 24, 2021 1:31 am at 1:31 am #2009791Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
hajj is same shoresh as Hebrew hag. So, an appropriate word. Also, notice that Hag usually means traveling to EY, while both Hajj and Umanjj call for people to travel from EY to a foreign place. There are also theological parallels that are probably not appropriate for this site.
It seems that everyone agrees that last year was full of aveiros like a Ukrainian Rimon – breaking the laws in multiple countries, infecting people, creating Hillul Hashem. This year hopefully went better and healthier, but I wonder whether one may associate oneself with an event that acquired such great reputation.September 24, 2021 1:34 am at 1:34 am #2009806MilhouseParticipant
In fact going to ones rebbe on yomtov REPLACES aliyah laregel, so it’s completely appropriate to compare them.September 24, 2021 11:14 am at 11:14 am #2009851
@Milhouse Going to the Rebbe is a minhag, I’m sure it’s been compared to being Oleh Regel, but it’s a poor comparison. You’re going to a Rebbe to be inspired by his Torah, Teffilos, and Emunah. Not to bring Korbonos on his Mizbei’ach. But that’s about going to a Rebbe. There’s no Rebbe in Ukraine that people go to in Elul, just the kever of one.September 26, 2021 7:37 am at 7:37 am #2010064Avi KParticipant
There have been many forged vaccination certificates in these circles. BTW,
Rav Ovadia blasted those who desert their families and go to Uman. Not to mention giving parnassa to people who have a statue of Chmielnitzki ym”s in the middle of their capital and even have a city named after him.September 26, 2021 9:24 am at 9:24 am #2010099
Yserbius; i have to admit that i should have been clearer; it’s obviously not in the same category as aliyah leregel, but it shouldn’t be mocked and compared to other religions’ activities. AAQ – i think it’s clear that if we give something an arabic moniker, even if the term is grammatically acceptable, muslim/arab culture has become associated with “the enemy” in our community, as well as being associated with extremism…. Think of all the castigation of people who want to be mesaken olam bemalchus shakai as “Taliban”. So when called a Hajj, it seems demeaning.
Re rav Ovadia; that’s true, and he’s not alone. However the particulars about who should and shouldn’t go are not what we’re discussing now, so i don’t see what’s relevant.
People getting inspired by the uman experience is a lot greater than history books vs learning.. If were making comparisons to things that have inherent value vs things that are heichi timtzos, i think a better comparison would be learning mussar vs learning gemara. The mussar is a heichi timtzah to have good middos and yiras shomayim, but isn’t a mitzvah in its own study.
Re chimilnicki; i agree that it’s a shame that they’re profiting from all the tourism, but if that’s the only way for these yidden to achieve what they gain from going to uman… It’s the same reason the gedolim allow living in eretz yisroel even though there is an element of giving a small chizuk to the state; it’s happening derech agav and isn’t your kavanah, and is not as important as what we gain spiritually from living there (if that’s where you belong)September 26, 2021 11:13 am at 11:13 am #2010109Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
hajj – Muslims arguably is one major monotheistic religion, and you always look at Israeli problems from a religious prospective, now turns out you are affected by secular trends of seeing Muslims as enemies. Seems like you are erring on a side of hating in multiple dimensions. And hajj would be different from Taliban, lots of non-Taliban muslims go on hajj, according to my limited knowledge.
Re: Rav Ovadia – I don’t think this is about individual psak. I think the objection is to the overall trend of seeking external “inspiration”. And as derech eretz kodma l’Torah, a multitude of reported transgressions and misbehaviors makes this activity suspicious. Now, I happened to meet one of the first, if not the first, people who was able to visit Uman at the end of USSR, and he was an erliche Chasidishe Rebbe, so there should not be an objection to visiting Uman. Maybe you can advise them to visit at some other times except R’H?
Re:Ukraine. I understand that Ukrainians, as well as other Eastern-European countries are primarily focused on negating Russian influence, so they venerate any kind of local heros (although Chmelnitski was pro-Russian, so I am not sure here). We just need to make sure we are not getting in the same trap as between WW1 and WW2 when Jewish nationalists joined Nazis and Soviets in pressing these countries for their treatment of minorities. Whatever their sins were/area, they paled in comparison to those vandals. Same now, Ukraine has a Jewish president and is half-occupied by Russia, and we should worry about their 17th century sins … Same as fighting Poland regarding expiration of their restitution law while there is no restitution law in Russia and Belorussia as far as I know. Wouldn’t we want to have Volozhin Yeshiva back?September 26, 2021 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #2010124
AAQ – it’s not me necessarily who sees muslims as enemies, but rather the vast majority of our community, so much so that associating something with islam/arab culture would be automatically a pejorative – i wasn’t saying whether or not this is proper or not, nor do i have a clear opinion on the matter. On the one hand, I’ve looked at the arab/muslim community with an open mind, not wanting to listen blindly to the zionists who consider them all our enemies. However at every turn I’m confronted with evidence that points to extremely high levels of anti semtism, largely due to zionism, endemic in the Muslim and particularly the Arab world. Not every single one hates us, but studies show that a very large percentage does, in Europe and the middle east at least. The amount of mainstream Muslim organizations that are found to have funded terrorist ones, politicians who espouse anti semitic views, and media which perpetuate anti semitic libels….i don’t believe that the zionists are completely lying in this issue. Just based on what my fellow talmidim in brisk encountered when mistakenly entering an Arab village is enough to make me want to avoid it as well; i don’t see why these sentiments are hateful or buying into the zionist narrative that they alone can protect us from our enemies. They lit the fire, threw us in it, and are now saying that we only can be saved by them.
I definitely don’t think that they’re irredeemable like the zionists say that they are; they grow up on lies about Jews, and i believe that educating them and the rest of the world that zionists do not represent all Jews will solve a great deal of the problems.
The fact that they are monotheistic would have been relevant 140 years ago before zionism came and spurred the arab countries to expel sefardi Jews etc, but now my point is that regardless of their religion, they are not something most jews would find flattering to be compared to, whether or not those feelings are justified is unclear to me entirely, but also not relevant either.
Re, Rav Ovadia; he addressed married men very clearly – those who leave their families are acting irresponsibly and without menthlickeit (he didn’t use that word, i forget his exact language); he didn’t mention bochurim at all…as for the misbehavior of some attendees; I’ve never been there, so I don’t know, but it seems to me that if someone wanted to sin, tel aviv is a while lot closer than uman.
I’ll admit i am not knowledgeable in Ukrainian politics, or even the exact details of tach vetat that you mentioned ( i.em chimilnicki’s political views); i just know that he killed hundreds of thousands of jews in his hatred and that he is still venerated by poles and Ukrainians as a national hero. I think what you said about Ukraine being a very different country than it was pre-war is very relevant; perhaps a wholesale boycott would be fruitless, as would abstaining from visiting uman due to an indirect boost to their economy. In my family, the Germans are collectively, not individually irredeemable and we would not drive Germans cars etc even if they paid us to; lots of European Jews feel the same way, as Germany is still GermanySeptember 26, 2021 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #2010238
Yserbius123, What would 99% of the people attending the “h” thing think of you and me?
Wishing a Gmar T. For klal yisroel. G. Yomtov.September 26, 2021 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #2010248
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